| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 203 Registered: 5-2007 |
I have continued to visit an Assembly of God church that my son belongs to. I note the following. They do not ask the congrgation to kneel during the worship service. Actually that makes sense to me. While I am all for kneeling in special moments and routinely in personal prayer time. I believe it is possible to cause more harm than good in a public setting because many older folks can't handle it with bad backs and knees. Prayer can become a matter of physical endurance. I guess I am a bit on the fence about that. I am used to a kneeling prayer in worship service. What do you all think? Another thing. The pastor sometimes likes to make a light joke. But it seems bordering on being too casual in holy matters. I realize being from conservative SDA, I am lean towards legalism and check lists. But what measure do we use to assure we are not being too familiar with God, with worship,and so on. I am not accusing here. The pastor is a sincere person and his sermons are excellent. This is about allowing for differences in style without crossing a line. Borders. Then I wonder about another thing. Invaribly, I will get emotional when they are singing. Some song, the music, lookinng at the crowd, something happens, even when I am trying to contain myself. A wave settles in , and tears start flowing. The devil I suppose , suggests this is merely emotions and that I keep going back simply for the emotional high. What is this? Is it God's Spirit? Or is it me just wanting to connect. Why do I sense a wave. Why am I drawn. I have thought about going to other more conservative churhes. But compared to this moderate church style of worship, it woul dbe a let down. I have spent decades , settling for supressed worship in conservative settings. I ponder these things. I tell myself , I will go where God leads. Right now , He is not telling me to go anywhere else. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1360 Registered: 9-2006  |
Jim, I think the difference in worship styles and the not kneeling and a light Joke is from the fact that these people don't feel threatened by the Lord, they are comfortable with him. I hardly ever get down on my knees yet my heart remains bowed low to him, my old knees won't put up with a lot of kneeling any more, is that a sign I disrespect him do you think? The other thing about getting emotional, it is the presence of the Holy Spirit. Yesterday morning in church we were singing a hymn and the tears just leaked out, every time I feel the presence of the Holy Spirit I leak bad and I mean bad, I leak like a sieve. Yes it is Gods Spirit, don't let the Devil rob you again, haven't you been robbed enough? Yes the holy Spirit does seem to come in "waves" If you spent decades settling for suppressed worship, don't you feel that decades is enough? Hang in there Jim, if he's not telling you to go anywhere then don't go nowhere. I have the highest hopes for you brother that you will be able to receive what God has for you. He loves you Jim, he ain't sitting up there with no big old clipboard Jim, he loves you enough to want to live in you, he wants to bless you, so let him. What have you got to lose brother? River | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 87 Registered: 6-2007 |
I have two painful knees that both need replaced. I can not kneel down at all - for any period of time unless on a very soft surface. So kneeling to pray makes no difference to me and shows no difference in level of respect. The response to the music is just a beautiful thing. To me, the act of opening up your mouth and heart and singing a praise to God is just the ultimate act of worship. Adventists don't get it. One time the head elder said to me "I am really struggling with how to give God adoration and I am praying about it". I told him to stop praying about it and open his mouth and shout it out! Laurie | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 178 Registered: 7-2007 |
I usually manage to not allow any tears to leak out in church or anywhere public, but sometimes when I'm by myself and I'm talking to the Lord and thanking Him and wishing I were with Him, the tears can leak out. Also when I think of people in the various cults who think they know Him, but don't; then tears can leak out. With my background, it would be really embarrassing for me to cry in front of others. I want to eventually visit an Assembly of God church though. (Right now I'm going to a non-denominational church, where I think God wants me to be, at the moment - and tears haven't been leaking out there. Whew!  ) | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 164 Registered: 5-2007  |
Laurie, In case you are considering having your knees replaced, consider my experience. About six years ago I had a total replacement of the right knee. Three years later, I had the same thing done on the other side. The original pains went away as soon as I recovered from the surgeries which was about six weeks in each case. However, it takes a long time to regain flexability and I am just now able to kneel down unless I rested aganist something such as the side of my bed. I am quite sure the Lord accepted my prayers in whatever posture I have been able to get into. Phil | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 884 Registered: 1-2003 |
Definately the emotionalism is the presence of the Holy Spirit. I can't believe I spent countless years in dead SDA churches so Spiritually cut off! I was attending a church that started out non-denon, then went Assembly of God if you can imagine! Every time I went there I ended up crying through the whole praise time...and I often got goosebumps during the sermons...I know what the presence of the Holy Spitit feels like now...and I never felt it in ANY SDA church. Sorry to say. | ||
| Wooliee Registered user Username: Wooliee Post Number: 93 Registered: 6-2005 |
I too am very reserved in worship, but am getting better. The SDA church I grew up is quite conservative in worship, and anytime someone got a little "wild" (i.e. raised their hands in praise or clapped) you can be sure it was noticed and talked about. There is no praise and worship at that church. Song service is usually robotic, and just a part of going through the motions of church service. The riskiest instruments used are horns which, no offense, make me nauseated and kill my ears. What a shame...we should never feel insecure in praise to our God. He deserves to be praised. Some of us are more conservative than others, but either way is okay. God knows our hearts. Julie P.S. Sorry about the horns...in that context they just annoy me. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6657 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, I agree with River's assessment of the jokes and tears and kneeling. The tears, the "wave" that you sense--that really is the palpable presence of the Holy Spirit. I have that experience over and over again in our church. I'll cry through the singing; cry just sitting there sometimes, and frequently even cry at points during the sermons--especially when I sense God specifically convicting or encouraging or teaching me through His word. One of the things God does for us when we are born again is to give us back our emotions. God created us to feel—and feeling love and awe and worship and peace and joy—those are gifts from God. Remember the fruit of the Spirit listed in Galatians 5:22-23? Love, joy, peace, patience kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. The first three, which are related directly to the presence of God, are things that we can feel or sense. The tears, Jim, is God washing you with His cleansing Spirit and healing your heart. That "new heart" promised in the new covenant (Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8) is alive instead of dead; it can feel instead of merely repress and supress and deny; it can sense and respond to the Living God as He literally ministers to your spirit with His own. Of course there is emotion connected with experiencing the presence of God! Only He can bring hope and reassurance when we are living in pain or trouble. Remember John 3:19-20: "This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything." God is greater than you doubt and fear and surprise, Jim, and He is giving you Himself in a way you could not receive Him before your risked your life in favor of following Him. You have made your heart accessible to Him, Jim, in a new way, and He is faithful to give us His Spirit as we submit our hearts to Him. Colleen | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 143 Registered: 4-2004 |
Jim, You are going through the same thing that probably many of us formers went through. I can remember the conservative SDA churches I attended. Very serious about everything. Emotional displays were frowned on. Let me ask you something. Have you been to a ball game and found yourself jumping up and down or clapping or shouting with excitement? I'll bet you have, even if it was back when you were a kid. If we can get excited and display emotion at a ball game, shouldn't we get much more excited about gathering with our brothers and sisters to worship the Messiah King who has saved us from certain destruction and reconciled us to God? I used to feel the same way you do. But over the years, as I have come to a deeper understanding of what it was that I was saved from I cannot help but cry at times, laugh, get all excited, etc. The same God who gave us bodies and minds to use for His glory also gave us emotions. For too long I failed to realize that. I rejoice now that I can worship Him not only with my mind and body but my emotions as well. We need to remember that much of worship style is cultural and has nothing to do with right or wrong. Throughout the history of the church we can see differences in worship style and much of it was cultural or various theological fads. Today there are many who criticize guitars, drums, ect. Several hundred years ago there was an equal criticism of pianos. Today there are many who critize modern worship music. In the mid-19th century many Christians critized the "new" worship music of their. Hymns like "Blessed Assurance", "At the Cross", Safe in the Arms of Jesus" and many others. These were looked down upon by many when first published and used. Also, the closing of the eyes for prayer is of recent origin. Prior to the 17th century it was common to pray with eyes looking toward heaven. You can see this in many older Christian art works. Can we really place a judgement on such things? You made a statement about being too familiar with God. I can appreciate that. He is The Sovegreign God and we need to remember that. But He is also our Father. The New Testament teaches us to think of Him as our "Abba" or Daddy. I'm a daddy with 3 grown daughters. But I can remember when they were small and they would meet me at the door as I came home from work. They knew I was in authority but they didn't bow and stand silently in tension over how to approach me. They ran up and gave me hugs and kisses and grabbed my legs and giggled. If I, as an earthly imperfect daddy can appreciate and even crave that kind of attention, I have to think my Father in heaven has an infinitely greater capacity for the same. But these conclusions of mine did not appear overnight. It was a process of growing in understanding and closeness to my Savior. I think we also need to avoid putting everyone in the same "worship box." Diversity is a good thing. Jim, you mention a wave setting in. I fully agree with River and Colleen. Based on my own experience, I fully believe it is the Holy Spirit. This happens to me quite often, especially when I am addressing the Spirit in prayer. By the way, I've had a number of fellow Christians look at me funny when I mention that I often pray to the Spirit. But if you think about it, why shouldn't we. The Holy Spirit is fully God and lives within each of us who are Christ-followers. It is He who teaches us. Should we not talk to our teacher? Just some rambling thoughts. Dane | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 204 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thank You all for your insights. Very much appreciated. Jim | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 417 Registered: 6-2005 |
Julie, so good to see you back. You must finally be coming up for air! I pray for you and your family, even if I dont always email! Jim, since you have submitted to the Lord, and will go where he leads, then I would trust the "drawing" of the Holy Spirit. Keep asking God to keep you grounded in truth as Colleen always says. When the tears come for me while in worship, they are usually accompanied by a deep love for God. Colleen: I loved your description: The tears, Jim, is God washing you with His cleansing Spirit and healing your heart. That "new heart" promised in the new covenant (Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8) is alive instead of dead; it can feel instead of merely repress and supress and deny; it can sense and respond to the Living God as He literally ministers to your spirit with His own. Of course there is emotion connected with experiencing the presence of God! Only He can bring hope and reassurance when we are living in pain or trouble. That cleansing and washing and healing by the Holy Spirit is indescribable. I NEVER knew that before. I have had a year of deep and traumatic loss. God's presence has been palpable on a regular basis. I dont even know how I worship and praise Him in the midst of it all--but I do. To be in deep pain, and to raise holy hands in worship at the same time, that is my born again spirit responding to God. I love Him for that. There has been a peace that PASSES understanding. A joy that PASSES human words or understanding. A love that PASSES reason, and brings love for the unlovable, A worship that bypases my intellect. I don't believe that is an "emotionionalism" to be condemned as some do. I believe it is GOD at work, just as he promised. The author's in the Bible were overcome when they encountered the Holy One. The more I know Him, the more overcome I am. Lori | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 160 Registered: 4-2005 |
This summer we have been studying the book of Psalms, both in Church service and Sunday School. Last Sunday was our last of the studies, and we read Ps. 150, the last one. It is all about praising God and how we should do it. First praise in the sanctuary, in his mighty heavens, mighty power, surpassing greatness, then with trumpet, harp and lyre, tambourine and dancing, strings and flute and clash of cymbals, resounding cymbals, (twice!!) then everything that has breath praise the Lord. Imagine the sounds, the movement--could be quiet sometimes, but not often I think.Let your imagination soar. Anyone can pick their favorite kind of sounds--just some thoughts on worship. Not what we were brought up with!I loved it. Peggy | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 439 Registered: 12-2004 |
Julie, It is nice to see you again. Although your comments about the "Horns" borders on blasphemy, and is almost heretical in nature, I will begrudgingly (smile) accept your preface that no offence was intented. I suspect at some point in your life you have played the clarnet or flute. I would allow a little leniency to your comment if this was the case. Before I leave, I must share a little "horn" humor. What do you call a Trombone player carrying a pager?.............an optomist!! (sorry) Trumpeter's credo....faster, higher, louder!!! Tongue in mouthpiece, Randy | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 179 Registered: 7-2007 |
I think that the reason that SDA services are usually so devoid of life, is because I think the Holy Spirit is mostly (if not entirely) absent. Ephesians 1:13,14 says that the Holy Spirit is the SEAL and GUARANTEE of our inheritance. Ellen White, though, says that the Sabbath is the seal and that there isn't any guarantee - she says that a person cannot say they are saved. It like she's removed the Holy Spirit from the lives of Adventists and put the Sabbath in His place. (Also notice Romans 8:9 where it says that if we don't have the Spirit, we don't belong to God. Also Romans 8:16 where it says that the Spirit witnesses with our spirits, that we are children of God.) River, you said once that one of the Adventists you know, said that he HOPED he would be saved. Perhaps it might help him see the danger he is in, to point out to him these things. Dianne | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 208 Registered: 5-2007 |
Sometimes, I get the impression or thought that God has a whole lot better in mind than my tendancy to want to wander about in the lowlands of familiarity. Sometimes there is a comfort in complacency and status quo existance. There is so much more, a higher level, a deeper reality, a greater beauty, a sure hope. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6666 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Jim, I understand--and I agree. Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 186 Registered: 7-2007 |
Where's River? He usually posts everyday - I think so anyway. I haven't seen any posts from him in a day or so. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2087 Registered: 10-2004  |
Dianne, he's posted in the Member's Only section today. You can click on the "Last Day" link (which is at the bottom of every page) to see all the posts from the last 24 hours. Jeremy | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 768 Registered: 7-2000 |
Jim, it is definitely the Holy Spirit and you are definitely not alone in what you are experiencing. And it really shouldn't surprise us. This is GOD who we are encountering in worship. Our mortal bodies are bound to have a reaction or two occasionally when His presence is powerfully felt. I remember one service we were in at church... the worship team had stopped playing, and everyone fell silent and still...it was one of those waves you talked about....and went on for some time. Really an intense sense of His presence was felt. Just when you felt your heart would burst with love for Him, a little girl, about 4 years old suddenly began bouncing up and down, clapping her hands, and shouting "I love you Jesus." It was precious! Time and again I have experienced, and watched as other people experienced for the first time, this thing of tears suddenly flowing in worship. I'm convinced that the Lord is doing a great deal of healing and restoration during those times. And education....He simply will not be put in a box of our expectations. Instead, He'll do what He needs to do. I remember one service where the power of His presence was being felt so powerfully.... A lady who was brand new to anything like that, and really knew nothing about it at all, called me the next day. She chatted casually for several minutes, and all the while I just knew there was something big on her mind. Finally she brought up the meeting the night before, commented on the powerful message that had been given, then asked about the worship time, veeery tentatively and mystified, "um.....what WAS that?" haha It seems that she had been standing there singing, I gather from what she told me that this was the first time in her life to truly open up and give adoration to Him in worship, and suddenly found herself unable to stand and had to sit down really quickly. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1039 Registered: 8-2004  |
I've seen posts from him over in the members only section from as recent as today. I think he's not far away. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1373 Registered: 9-2006 |
Nah, the old goats over in the THHeee-u-logy section steerin up trouble!! | ||
| Wooliee Registered user Username: Wooliee Post Number: 94 Registered: 6-2005 |
Hi Lori, Yep I've finally come up for air. I passed boards and everything. Praise God! I couldn't have done it without Him. I too remember you in my prayers. Randy, Sorry about the horns...I did try to play the flute when I was younger, but was terrible at it. I'm just not musically gifted, but I thank God for people who are! Hopefully that redeems me a little...God bless!! Julie |
