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Reb
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Post Number: 570
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Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 12:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Again, the young earth/old earth creation issue is non-salvific. There are compelling arguments for either side, let there be individual liberty of conscience on this. I am a staunch long/old earther but I would NEVER criticise someone for being a young earther. I remember the mild persecution and riducule I suffered from Adventists for my long/old earth creation views, I know what it's like when people try to force a belief on someone.

I say on issues such as this that are non-salvific and have compelling arguments either way, believe as you are convicted and God Bless you!

In Christ,

Reb
Jorgfe
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Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 1:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Somehow this thread seems to have migrated from a review of various thoughts pertaining to the extent and effects of a "global" flood to a discussion of old vs. young creationism. No problem, except it still hasn't addressed the many anomolies that Seventh-day Adventists so conveniently "pin" on a "global" flood.

Also the statement about the whole world, as it relates to a global flood", in the bible is used in numerous places within the Bible to refer to the "then known" world. I will look them up if anyone questions the veracity of that statement.

There are professional geologists that just don't buy the idea that everything we can't explain is caused by a "global flood".

I could list loads of events and puzzling data. Adventists think they have a "pat answer" by just conveniently attributing everything to a "global flood". I don't think so. There is so much more going on besides just a flood that happened at a point in time -- even if it was indeed global. There are so many things that come to mind that I hardly know where to start.

Gilbert Jorgensen
Reb
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Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 1:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And those Adventists that do believe the dinosaurs existed believe they were destroyed in the flood, along with woolly mammoths and other creatures that became extinct long ago.

I agree, Gilbert with what you said in the post above and I would extend that to Adventists having or at least thinking they have a "pat" answer to everything.

The fact that they think they know more than other Christians do and are the only Christians that "know" exactly what will happen in the end times speaks volumes.

It just astounds me that they will let a brain-damaged, mentally-disturbed woman who only had a 3rd grade education and has been dead 92 years do their thinking for them.

With Adventists, it's think whatever EGW said think. Hmmmmmmmmmmm how is that different from the Mediavel RCC that forced people to think what the Pope told them to think. Except as far as I know Adventists have never killed anyone yet.

EGW with her sick mind and 3rd grade education wrote this stuff and they swallow it completely.
Colleentinker
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Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gilbert, I do believe you have a good point. Not all anomalies can be explained by "the flood".

I found the names of the authors of the book I mentioned above: the book is When the Earth Nearly Died by D.S. Allan and J.B. Delair. It's available from Amazon.com. This book, while by no means a "final word", is very interesting, connecting a cataclysmic flood with a cosmic event which preciptated it, possibly the results of a super-nova explosion or some other event that caused "something" to enter the solar system, possibly causing the asteroid belt (which exists where ancient Sumerian star charts showed another planet), which perhaps tilted the earth's axis, and which was responsible for a great many anomalies such as the bays of Carolina, the large shallow lakes in Canada and Alaska--all of which are aligned at the same degree and angle, etc. Further, ancient legends from Mesopotamia, etc, record stories that could be explained by a cosmic event such as this.

At any rate, it is fascinating reading. (Don't hear me saying this book is "the truth". It is interesting and presents some fascinating ideas that do support universal flooding along with other cataclysms on the earth's crust.)

What we can know for sure is that God did send a flood as recorded in Genesis, that it was a foreshadowing of His final judgment on sin and evil and of His soveriegn rescue of His people. The flood also verifies that God does pass judgment on evil—contrary to what many people (including liberal Adventists) say—and evil does not "destroy itself". God destroys it.

One of the things I eagerly look forward to about entering eternity is being able to see exactly what happened in the history of this planet!

Colleen
Asurprise
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Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was looking in the web site: answersingenesis.org and came across an article by Ken Ham called "Creation: 'where's the proof?'" He said that arguments stem from people arguing about their "interpretations based on their presuppositions." If one presupposes, for example, that there is no God, they'll come up with an interpretation way different than someone who believes that God created the earth.
I'm not saying that any of you believe that - I know you don't or you wouldn't be on the forum. But if someone presupposes "old earth," they're going to come up with a conclusion far different than someone who believes in a literal 6 days creation.
(Another example is if someone figures that the people before the flood only settled in that part of the world or if they had settled the entire earth.)
All I know is that we can completely trust the Bible :-)
Jorgfe
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Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 4:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So once we move past a discussion of creation, how do we put together the many "mind-blowing" puzzle pieces that Seventh-day Adventists conveniently just say, "Oh. It was the flood."

Right now I am tied up with finishing a computer program, but this weekend I will start posting links to some of these.

Here in the western USA there are geological features that leave a person at a complete loss for words, and we have no monoploy on these. While Colleen was at Adventist Today a number of articles were written addressing just a few of these. The time frame of some of these is long enough that it seems incredulous to propose that all these things happened in a 40-day period! It has nothing to do with how long a creation took. These are artifacts that Adventists just glibbly state with a sense of superiority, "Oh. The flood did it."

Like I stated at the beginning -- for example, how do we have evidences of the flood (fossils, etc, that take hundreds of years) inside of massive geological formations 5000+ feet high that may have actually been upended by the steam pressure produced by the "fountains of the deep" being broken up as part of the flood? Fossils don't develop overnight. Seventh-day Adventist logic falls flat on its face trying to defend Ellen White and George McCready Price, her righthand self-proclaimed geologist.

And when Richard Hamill, under GC President Fighur, started researching some of these within the Seventh-day Adventist Geoscience Research Institute, the next GC President Pierson, had him removed, and turned it into a Seventh-day apologetics institute that would support the teachings of White and Price.

Two years ago, on a trip through Yellowstone I actually saw the upright mammoth fossilized trees on the north side that Hamill was introducing leading SDA science teachers to.

Where we live I look at these massive mountains every day -- and the multi-state Lake Bonneville shoreline, and on and on. Consider for a moment the activity in Idaho and eastern Washington State -- the huge glacial dam that scientists have determined broke every couple of hundred years and flooded eastern Washington State. I am speechless. We are nothing by comparison, and to think that God loves us so much!

"Oh. The flood did it." Yeah. Right.

Gilbert Jorgensen
Reb
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Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I looked up some info on Mr. Price.

Hmmmmmmm. Seems he didn't have much training in science.

Can you spell c-r-a-c-k-p-o-t ?
Jorgfe
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Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 4:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Reb, see http://64.226.233.122/discus/messages/11/5985.html

Gilbert Jorgensen
Larry
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Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 5:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Walt Brown does a nice job. I bought the CD, but most of his work is readable online at:

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/IntheBeginningTOC.html

He discusses lots of flood geology.
Jorgfe
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Post Number: 604
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Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 6:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Larry, that looks absolutely fascinating. The flood-related material will keep me busy for a few days. Thank you!

Gilbert Jorgensen
Mwh
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Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 10:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just watched

1. The Age of the Earth
2. The Garden of Eden
3. Dinosaurs and the Bible

From http://drdino.com/downloads.php

Gave me a lot to think about. I used to hold to the old earth perspective, but now I believe in a young earth.

In His wonderful loving grace,
Martin
Dennis
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Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I live just a short distance from William Jennings Bryan's historic home (on the Methodist-affiliated campus of Bryan-LGH East Medical Center in Lincoln, Nebraska). William Jennings Bryan appealed for help to George McCready Price (1870-1963) during the Scopes Trial in Tennessee. Price was in England at the time, but advised Bryan not to get into much scientific information during the famous trial. Later Harold W. Clark, a former student of Price, felt that Price's views were outdated. At that point, the late George McCready Price accused Clark of having a severe case of "universityitis" that was in sympathy with the "tobacco-smoking, Sabbath-breaking, God-defying" evolutionists.

It has always been obvious to my mind that the Grand Canyon was submerged in a great deluge. The sediment layers clearly reveal flood geology of some sort. Most Adventist science teachers have now more than doubled the age of the earth since Ellen White's declaration of the earth being merely 6,000 years old. One of the reasons for this change in thinking is due to archaeological findings that some Egyptian dynasties have been found to be much older than 6,000 years. While I don't claim to know the exact age of the earth, I side with those claiming a young, but far older, earth than 6,000 years.

Dennis Fischer

(Message edited by Dennis on August 18, 2007)
Jorgfe
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Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 1:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There were a number of fascinating articles in Adventist Today relating to ice core samples. For some reason Adventist Today seems to be "tucking in its tail" and hiding many of the articles that it did have online. Perhaps they are following Sprectrum's suit? In any event, it doesn't bode well for a spirit of openess. http://www.atoday.com/magazine/archive shows a mere "sampling" of the issues that they used to have online. So I wonder what their purpose is in censoring the information they used to have available?

Go to http://www.atoday.com/search/node/ice+core and you will get "Your search yielded no results" which is baloney, because back Colleen was there they had a number of articles on the subject.

In any event, a little bit of the material is still available in Google's cache:
http://www.atoday.com/344.0.html

quote:

There is one important correction that you should make (page 10). The signature of copper smelting dust appears in the Greenland GISP2 ice core beginning about five thousand years ago rather than five hundred, thus confirming the time independently established by archaeologists for when humans began using this technology.




Other interesting links:
http://www.nature.ca/notebooks/english/giantbev.htm
http://www.tarpits.org/education/guide/flora/bear.html
http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/larson/mammuthus.html
http://www.truthorfables.com/BL6.htm

quote:

Does modern science discount catastrophes such as floods? Of course not, Kansas used to be Oceans, much of America was under ice then and when the ice melting huge lakes formed and with the break down of ice dams huge surface changes occurred by water. What science does not do is attribute all this to a world wide flood because it simply does not work. Here in the Northwest we see abundant Ice Age evidence, glacial polish upon the Granite of our mountains, cirques and end moraines. The evidence that many claim to be from the universal flood is not very likely to have occurred at the supposed universal flood, even if one accepted a universal flood what we see is not the product of it. Multiple times areas of the North American continent have been under the sea. Growing up in Oregon I remember finding shells on our farm and thinking they were from the flood. Yet it does not work at all if we assume as many SDA’s do that coal and oil are products of the universal flood catastrophe, buried deep underground yet here we see shells on the surface or as Tim Jennings supposes pre flood wood that is hard as stone on the surface of deserts.


http://www.chem.hope.edu/~polik/warming/IceCore/IceCore2.html/quote{Ice Core Dating

By sampling at very fine intervals down the ice core, and provided that each annual layer of snow is thick enough, several samples from each year may be measured for the different chemical properties. It has already been seen that the delta value is related to air temperature when the snow was deposited. Because it is warmer in summer and cooler in winter, and provided the snow layers are not too disturbed by wind, the delta value can show annual cycles. Thus, these values can be used to date the ice core. Hydrogen peroxide is created in the atmosphere by a chemical reaction that requires ultraviolet light. There is a lot less ultraviolet light in the winter than in the summer in Antarctica. Thus, measurements of hydrogen peroxide dissolved in the ice also provide a good annual cycle indicator.
In order to date the ice cores accurately, the annual layers need to be thick enough to obtain about ten measurement samples from each year. The thickness of the annual layers depends on how much snow falls each year. Thus, to obtain an ice core from which accurate, detailed dating can be derived, we need to find an Antarctic site where the snow accumulation is relatively high. This would usually mean we need to find a low elevation site, but it must also be a site where there is no melt. If the snow was to melt at any time during the year, some measurements such as those involving trapped gases would be spoiled. In addition, the annual layers would be destroyed by the melt water which would, effectively, wash the evidence away.
Such locations (high snow accumulation, yet low summer temperatures) are not easy to find. One such location, however, is near the summit of Law Dome, approximately 120 kilometres from Casey Station, where an ice core has been drilled 1,200 metres through the ice sheet to the underlying bedrock. Accurate dating for this core has been obtained back to 8,000 years ago using annual cycles obtained by analysis of delta value and hydrogen peroxide. A section of the graph of delta value and hydrogen peroxide is shown in Figure 4, along with the year. The ice core depth for this section is 139 to 128 metres, corresponding to the dates 1807 to 1826 AD.}http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icecores.html
http://www.csa.com/discoveryguides/icecore/review.php
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/sajama.htm

quote:

OLDEST ICE CORE FROM THE TROPICS RECOVERED, NEW ICE AGE EVIDENCE

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- An analysis of ice cores drilled from a glacier atop a Bolivian volcano is painting a vivid picture of climate conditions in the tropics over the past 25,000 years. The ice at the bottom of the cores was formed during the last glacial maximum -- the coldest part of the last ice age -- making it the oldest core recovered from the tropics.
In a paper in the journal Science, the research team describes a climate in the tropics that was different from what many researchers have thought. The findings are the latest result from a 20-year effort to build a global climate record that reaches from the North to the South Pole.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_core

Gilbert Jorgensen
Jorgfe
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Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another interesting aspect to large-scale geological modification that can't all be blamed on "the Flood" are meteor impacts. I think Seventh-day Adventists that use Ellen White as their "life preserver" are being overly simplistic. Either that, or I suppose that all of these occurred within the same 40-day flood period?

http://geology.com/meteor-impact-craters.shtml

What kind of effect do you suppose that these meteors had?
http://geology.com/articles/vredefort-dome.shtml - 250 km in diameter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_Basin - 250 km in diameter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_crater -

quote:

The impact would have caused some of the largest megatsunamis in Earth's history. These would have spread in all directions, hitting the Caribbean island of Cuba especially hard. A cloud of dust, ash and steam would spread itself from the crater. The pieces of the meteorite would have rained all over Earth, igniting global wildfires. The shock waves would have continued hundreds of kilometers into the planet, causing global earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. The emission of dust and particles covered the entire surface of the earth for several years, possibly a decade, creating a harsh environment. (Pope, et al., 1997)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manicouagan_Reservoir - 100 km in diameter

Here is a complete list with the largest at the bottom:
http://www.unb.ca/passc/ImpactDatabase/CIDiameterSort2.htm

Gilbert Jorgensen
Jorgfe
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Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

By the way, did you know that the leading expert on mammal fossils, paleontologist Earl Douglas (1862-1931), was raise a Seventh-day Adventist -- according to the US National Park Service? That means that he would have been exposed to the contemporary theories of Ellen White and George McCready Price.

He discovered on August 17, 1909, what is now Dinosaur National Monument (http://www.nps.gov/dino/). It is a 200,000 acre area layered with prehistoric plant and animal fossils that contained 350 tons of fossils, including full skeletons and remains of some dinosaur species that previously were unknown. Earl Douglas excavated numerous dinosaur bones for the Carnegie Museum in Pittsburg (http://www.carnegiemnh.org/exhibits/dinosaur.htm) and later the University of Utah.

I found this out two years ago when we were camping at Dinosaur National Monument and attending an evening park ranger presentation. The ranger told the life history of Earl Douglas -- in first person. In the course of the presentation he mentioned that he (Earl Douglas) had been raised by "strict Seventh-day Adventist parents". According to the park ranger, Earl Douglas was initially a "school teacher" who found that his "strict Seventh-day Adventist upbringing" didn't go over well with his school students. He evidently left teaching and went into the study of paleontology. Somewhere along the way it appears that he joined the ranks of "former Adventists". I had no doubt that the Holy Spirit, through that park ranger presentation, was speaking directly to me.

I found that tidbit of information to be absolutely fascinating, because at that time I was harboring serious doubts about the veracity of Seventh-day Adventism. To think that the leading paleontologist in the world had been raised a Seventh-day Adventist, and did not buy into the authenticity of Ellen White's "divine inspiration" relating to paleontology, to me, was highly significant.

During this same time, I was beginning to study the works of Ron Numbers, a close relative of my wife's. In his books, he also pointed out numerous other ways that Ellen White's "wax nose" was crumbling.

Gilbert Jorgensen
Jeremiah
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Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 7:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's what looks like a good book on the earth being very old; http://home.entouch.net/dmd/bkout.htm . This link is only to a summary of the contents of the book.

Jeremiah
Jeremiah
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Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 9:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's an article by Glen Morton about cellular death which is very interesting to read; http://home.entouch.net/dmd/death1.htm

Here's a quote from the article;


quote:

What is interesting is that God uses apoptotic death to create each and every animal. In the case of human development, our hands look like paddles at the end of the sixth week of development. But then the cells between the fingers undergo apoptosis and die. What they leave behind are the fingers. Look at the inside of one of your fingers now. The ancestor of the cells you are now looking at barely escaped death during your development. If they had been a smidgen closer to the webbing, they too would have been instructed to die.

So, what does this have to do with Eden? Well if God created the cellular biochemistry, then He also created the instructions for cellular death and God himself used death to create us!

What is even more amazing is that God created a system in which death is the primary state.




What I find so fascinating with this is how precisely it fits with this description of the origin of man written by St Athanasius in the 4th century;


quote:

He says as much in Genesis: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth; and again through that most helpful book The Shepherd, "Believe thou first and foremost that there is One God Who created and arranged all things and brought them out of non-existence into being." Paul also indicates the same thing when he says, "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that the things which we see now did not come into being out of things which had previously appeared." For God is good—or rather, of all goodness He is Fountainhead, and it is impossible for one who is good to be mean or grudging about anything. Grudging existence to none therefore, He made all things out of nothing through His own Word, our Lord Jesus Christ and of all these His earthly creatures He reserved especial mercy for the race of men. Upon them, therefore, upon men who, as animals, were essentially impermanent, He bestowed a grace which other creatures lacked—namely the impress of His own Image, a share in the reasonable being of the very Word Himself, so that, reflecting Him and themselves becoming reasonable and expressing the Mind of God even as He does, though in limited degree, they might continue for ever in the blessed and only true life of the saints in paradise. But since the will of man could turn either way, God secured this grace that He had given by making it conditional from the first upon two things—namely, a law and a place. He set them in His own paradise, and laid upon them a single prohibition. If they guarded the grace and retained the loveliness of their original innocence, then the life of paradise should be theirs, without sorrow, pain or care, and after it the assurance of immortality in heaven. But if they went astray and became vile, throwing away their birthright of beauty, then they would come under the natural law of death and live no longer in paradise, but, dying outside of it, continue in death and in corruption.

- On the Incarnation




Athanasius apparently does not have a problem with death of animals happening before the fall. And I would assume this is the tradition he recieved which had been handed down from the beginning. It's interesting how well it seems to fit with what is being revealed by science these days.

Here's another quote from Athanasius which contains the key to Eastern Orthodox spirituality; This is the original Christian "contemplative spirituality" unmixed with New Age concepts.


quote:

By nature, of course, man is mortal, since he was made from nothing; but he bears also the Likeness of Him Who is, and if he preserves that Likeness through constant contemplation, then his nature is deprived of its power and he remains incorrupt.

- On the Incarnation




Since death entered into the world, all physically die, but since Christ conquered death, all will be raised again. It is interesting however that there are a number of Christians over the past 2000 years who have died but their physical bodies remained incorrupt for decades or more often centuries. Physical evidence of spiritual reality?

Jeremiah
Dane
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Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 10:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't get a chance to post very often but I try to keep up with the flow here. This is a fascinating topic. I have enjoyed exploring the question of origins since my days in biology classes at AU in the '70's. I'll qualify the following by stating that I am not a scientist or theologian and I realize that I may be completely wrong in my views.

Here is my take.
1) It is not a salvation issue.
2) Years ago, I came to the conclusion that there are some areas where I must hold tentantive conclusions and I have learned to be comfortable with this.
3) Personally I currently (for quite a few years) think that that the construct of Progressive Creationism is a viable way of reconciling Scripture and Science. (however, I often wonder if Scripture and science need to be reconciled)

(I need to state clearly that I believe that Scripture in the original autographs are absolutely true. The "truth" in science changes with new information, the truth in Scipture does not)

4) Genesis 1 and 2 are open to interpretion regarding days.
5) Geneolgies in the Bible were structured to show general lines of descent.
5) The ancient Jewish scholars debated this same issue.
6)The Scientific Method is incapable of "proving" what happened.
__________

One point that I pondered over for a long time was the idea of physical death before the Fall. My current position is that a detailed, literal reading of Genesis 1 and 2 is referencing only what is happening is the Garden. This could allow for physical death before the fall. (Science shows that certain types of physical death, ie. bacteria, is necessary for sustaining life)

Another hmmmm that I've pondered is this. If God planned for all creatures (not plant life) to live forever, what about over-population? Even in a perfect environment, populations would reach a point where resources would not sustain them.

In conclusion, I am compelled to shut my mouth and listen to my Creator as He says, "Who is this who darkens my cousel with words without knowledge? ...Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?"

Let there be praise to our Creator and let us be humble in our understanding.

Dane

These are just my rambling thoughts and I may be all wrong.

Dane
Reb
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Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 10:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with you, Dane
Jorgfe
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Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 11:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another interesting link:
http://www.wecnmagazine.com/2007issues/may/may07.html

Gilbert Jorgensen

It has been 162 Years, 10 Months, and 16 Days since October 22, 1844

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