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Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6607
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 4:34 pm: |     |
With respect to Reb, who is still in transition and who is as welcome to vent here as everyone else, I don't think most people would consider Ellen to have been "criminally insane". His comment seemed to be hyperbole when I read it--and apparently most of those here also thought so because they didn't respond and allowed it to scroll off the current posts without any more attention.
I agree, Jess, that we aren't privy to what occurred between God and EGW. Ellen, however, is dead. She is a public figure who made definite claims, and we are obliged to judge her truthfulness and authority based on her own statements, the continuing influence of her statements, and the clear instruction of the Bible. Now, I don't believe (again, Reb, with respect) that she was criminally insane.
I know that many Adventists do consider Ellen to be precious to them—and if not precious, to be historically significant. Yet the purpose of this forum is to provide a place where those transitioning may vent, may ask questions, and may find prayer, fellowship, and Biblical grounding to help them safely transition from the bewilderment of feeling betrayed, threatened, angry, and grieved. If lurking Adventists wish to observe these questions and transitions, they are welcome.
This forum is similar to a support group. If a group of women rape victims, for example, meet to help each other become healthy and strong after their trauma, it would be counter-productive to allow men—any men, however godly they are—into that support group. Not only would the women feel insecure, but those poor men would likely feel attacked and judged as the women vented about their experiences with men.
Judging from the lack of response to Reb's comment nearly a week ago, most of us likely took it to be a reaction born out of his feelings at that particular moment and let it pass. Love covers over a multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8), and usually we allow people here to say what they feel because they are experiencing the valid feelings of discovering they have been deceived.
Slander against a living person, however, would belong to a different category. But venting against a dead false prophetess as one seeks to disentangle his/her life from her legacy is part of healing.
Ultimately we have to give our grief, our anger, our personal shame about having been enmeshed in this "thing" to God. Only His love and forgiveness of us can wash away the deep scars on our hearts. In the meantime, those of us how have already walked the road of transition out bear the burdens of those who are newly exiting.
God will be the judge of us all. He even uses the shock of an Adventists' reading the strong feelings of those who are working through Adventism for His glory. For some people, the objective theological evidence isn't convincing. For some, seeing the effects of Adventism reveals the truth more clearly than reading the logic.
I understand your concern, Jess—and I understand the deep need to express what one goes through as one processes the betrayal and guilt and shame that are the legacy most of us share.
Colleen |
Cloudy
Registered user
Username: Cloudy
Post Number: 40
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 5:12 pm: | |
Colleen,
I just noticed this thread and would like to comment on your earlier remarks.
I think you are correct that adventist health/ medical education does not combine nutritional therapy with medical treatment. The MD program has very little in the way of education in nutrition as do most MD programs. Medical treatment is taught and practiced in the conventional manner. A non SDA medical doctor John McDougall worked in conjunction with Sta. Helena medical center for some time providing a live in program which helped heart patients to avoid heart surgery and lose weight on a low fat vegetarian diet. He noted that the typical SDA vegetarian diet is not terribly healthy; high in fat, protein and junk food. He found that the SDA heart surgeons were not cooperative with him as they were concerned about losing surgical patients. He ended up starting his own program separate from a hospital in Santa Rosa.
As far as LLU being so proud of its health studies/ research, I assume you refer to the Adventist Health Study. I went to the school of public health and knew some epidemiologists working with the data. The data they had would be many an epidemiologist's dream to work with, and they were eager to publish credible papers analyzing the data, so I suppose that is where the pride comes from. I do not see the SDA institutions as being different than conventional medicine or public health; no better and no worse.
Do not think EGW has had much influence in these fields.
(Message edited by Cloudy on August 21, 2007) |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 604
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 8:26 am: | |
Jess is right. I went too far with that comment about Ellen White.
I apologise for it. It was wrong, period. |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 606
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 9:41 am: | |
There's no excuse for that statement I made about Ellen White and I'm sorry. Yes, I was upset and going through a rough time in my transition out of Adventism when I made that statement(the situation I've been going through appears to be resolving, Praise God).
I'll Just leave it that Ellen White taught error and counterdicted scripture but only God knows what her motives were. I had no right to judge her with a wild unfounded statement. I do think she was ill but ok she was not "criminally insane".
Thanks, Jess for pointing that out. Hey, I need to "man-up" and admit I was wrong. |
Jwd
Registered user
Username: Jwd
Post Number: 288
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 10:42 am: | |
Dear Reb,
My heart is warmed greatly by your response above and I just thanked our FATHER for preventing my posted objection to create anger and ill feelings in your heart toward me.
The Apostle Paul in Rom 3:12 makes a statement many do not understand, when he says there is no one who does good, "not even one." We see non-believers, even athiests doing good (by our standard) continually. But the good which Paul speaks is in the context of "none righteous" in v 10. We are incapable of doing good, as it matches God's holy, pure standard. Often the motive of those whose acts illicit a response from us as "that was so good of him," is selfish; perhaps wanting to improve his/her social image, or to win applaud; all sorts of un-righteous motives; for out of their carnal heart issue forth the things of life.
My point is that I fall into that category. We all say and do things we wish we could erase or take back; like words spoken in anger, often against those we love the most. But like a punch in the jaw, or shooting a bullet, once words leave our mouths we cannot take them back. How I wish, and I'm sure you will find yourself readily agreeing with me, I could take back every hurtful thing I have ever said. Here is where we must fall on God's forgiving grace and praise Him that He does not hold those things against us.
It takes a big man, a big person to say the three words the majority in our world, particularly in the world of politics and corporate business and power mongering, find it impossible to say: I was wrong.
My admiration for you just leaped 1000% when I read your words. While there may be "no excuse" as you write, there is the reality that you and I are still human. Very much human. I'm sure - with a smile - we could hear our Lord saying a hearty "Amen to that!" lol The good news is that He knows we are dust, with a nature that is sinful through and through.
Reb, should you ever wish to talk about your transition and the pain you are experiencing, as we all have, and still at times feel portions of that pain when we run our finger around the inside of our heart and feel the scar tissue caused by all that we endured by the conditioned thinking, the guilt and fear associated with being poured into the mold of Adventism with it's Ellen White influence, I would be happy to talk to you about it. We can share "war stories."
JDixon1@bak.rr.com
Ellen's writings, caused tremendous pain and psychological damage in my life and even in the early years of our marriage. It happens. That is a reality and I would never suggest that anyone so impacted deny it.
I praise God for your statement about some resolution appearing to be taking place in the situation you refer to in your present life and experience.
Once again, Reb, my heart is touched and blessed over your spirit and response.
I am prompted to share something that I think applies in a tongue-in-cheek fashion. No doubt it will give you a smile.
I'm a cowboy Western lover. We owned horses in Wyoming and Montana. I've participated in cattle drive and branding. I love western movies. One of my favorites is Louis L'Amoure's Crossfire Trail staring Tom Selleck and another favorite character actor of mine, Wilford Brimley. Well a phrase that the various actors use throughout this movie came from Wilford Brimley, where when he used it the first time, he was showing a young companion how to relax when filing a horse shoe. The young man was working 90 mph at filing. And Brimley says, Hold on young feller. You'll wear yourself out. Let me show you how.
He gracefully uses the file just a few times, instead of the frantic filing the young cowboy had been doing, and he says, something like, relax, take it easy, "and you'll get a more harmonious outcome."
Well that's the phrase I suggest here for all of us in our lives and actions - - we tend to rush about and thrash about and raise dust devils by our business, always doing, doing, doing, rather than relaxing to enjoy "a more harmonious outcome" by simply focusing on BEING!
Hope you get the point.
I'd love to hear from you.
God bless and once more I take my hat off to you in admiration. You "done good" and "manned-up"
fine! LOL
Jess |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 611
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 10:52 am: | |
Thanks, Jess for the kind words and your e-mail address.
That's a good story and I do get the point.
Your kind words have really touched my heart.
God Bless you.
In Christ,
Reb |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2050
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 11:45 am: | |
I'm a bit confused. Wouldn't saying that EGW was "criminally insane" be attributing the BEST motives possible to her? See: http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/term/D0330F5D-8018-4E8D-8C487C2F09A501E6
Jeremy |
Jwd
Registered user
Username: Jwd
Post Number: 289
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 2:51 pm: | |
Quoting from the site you supplied, Jeremy:
"Defendants who are criminally insane cannot be convicted of a crime, since criminal conduct involves the conscious intent to do wrong -- a choice that the criminally insane cannot meaningfully make."
Has anyone seen or can show proof that it has been proven that Ellen White in consciousness chose to do wrong?
I'm making an honest inquiry here.
Jess |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 616
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 3:06 pm: | |
I don't think there is proof, Jess. Only God knows what Ellen's motives really were. I do believe she was a sincere Christian who loved the Lord but was manipulated by others into believing her "visions" were from God when they were actually likely due to her medical condition. Only God knows what Ellen's motives were and I believe that she may, herself have been decieved.
I actually have some amount of compassion for her:
The misfortune she had at 9 yrs. of age which basically probably "ruined" her nerves.
No doubt Miller's message was the "answer" for Ellen, what I've read about her seems to indicate that it gave her life meaning, it became her raison d'etre. It must have given her great hope to believe Christ would be returning very soon and put and end to her misery.
The "Great Disappointment" must have especially crushed her. She herself wrote in her Early Writings those days just before October 22, 1844 were the "happiest of her life". The despair she must have felt after the "Great Disappointment" I can't imagine. Though if she would have just obeyed what is in the Bible and not followed Miller she wouldn't have been disappointed.
She was already of frail physical and mental health and this event probably "pushed her over the edge". Again, I was wrong in saying "criminally insane" I was very upset that day with Adventism in general. But I do believe she was ill and I think there is some historic documentation of that, including physicians who were Advent believers themselves who attended Ellen and believed her "visions" were purely the product of her illness.
But I agree we cannot speculate as to her motives ONLY God knows and if I have judged her I was wrong. I just wanted to clarify what I think and I actually have compassion for Ellen, given that she was ill. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2054
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 4:36 pm: | |
Hi Jess,
You wrote:
quote:Quoting from the site you supplied, Jeremy:
"Defendants who are criminally insane cannot be convicted of a crime, since criminal conduct involves the conscious intent to do wrong -- a choice that the criminally insane cannot meaningfully make."
Has anyone seen or can show proof that it has been proven that Ellen White in consciousness chose to do wrong?
I'm making an honest inquiry here.
Jess
It seems that you're reading that quote as the opposite of what it's saying. It says that someone who is "criminally insane" does NOT have "the conscious intent to do wrong."
So when you ask: "Has anyone seen or can show proof that it has been proven that Ellen White in consciousness chose to do wrong?" That question is irrelevant, as what Reb said would mean that EGW did NOT in consciousness choose to do wrong. (So as not to confuse things further, I will give my own opinion later.  )
Jeremy |
Jwd
Registered user
Username: Jwd
Post Number: 290
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 12:08 pm: | |
Reb, I fully agree with your last post.
Jess |
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