| Author | Message | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 157 Registered: 7-2007 |
The SDA religion is SO CLOSE to genuine Christianity, that if a person doesn't know their Bible REALLY well, they can be easily led astray. I've been writing to several of my relatives, but particularly to one of my SDA sisters. Knowing how I didn't really have the assurance of salvation when I was an Adventist - at least not for any length of time - I asked her if she KNEW she would be saved if something happened to her and I asked her what she needed to do to STAY saved. (I got that idea from one of the former SDA pastors who wrote in this forum.) She wrote back saying that as long as she follows Jesus, she's safe, but that she could drift away from Christ if she doesn't have daily prayer and devotions. She said that she could trust that she would be saved if something happened to her suddenly. This all sounds well and good, but here she's saying that the MAINTENANCE of that salvation is up to her prayer and Bible study. Even to my ears, as used to hearing the Adventist message as I am, it sounds good - well almost. Here's how I responded after much prayer: Hi ___, you're almost right. Like Noah rested in the ark for safety, we must rest in Christ. There isn't anything we can do – not praying or Bible study or anything. Once we accept Christ, He gives us the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit lives in us, fruits follow. Ellen White had it backward. Out of one side of her mouth, she says that Jesus saves us, but on the other side, she says in her Early Writings book and elsewhere that we have to step fast and deny self in order to be fit for the company of angels. The Bible says to accept Jesus and then the Holy Spirit dwells in us. (Romans 8:9) It says that we have been saved. (Titus 3:5, 2nd Timothy 1:9, Ephesians 2:8,9) It says that the Holy Spirit in the guarantee of our salvation. (Ephesians 1:13,14) There’s only one sin that will condemn a person – that is rejecting Jesus. If we accept Jesus, we have His Spirit, the Holy Spirit in our hearts and we have salvation – it’s that simple. (If we think there’s anything that we have to do ourselves to be right with God, that obligates us to do the whole law perfectly ourselves. There’s no middle ground. We either REST in Jesus through His Spirit, or we do the law ourselves.) Love, Dianne Anyway, does this sound okay? I'm still new to the real gospel myself, having been out of the SDA church only a little over a year. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6620 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dianne, good answer! God is so faithful to give us the words we need...did you have the sense of "learning" or understanding what you wrote with new depth as your wrote it? I am convinced that God brings opportunities for us to proclaim His Truth to people for two reasons: one, so they will hear the truth, and second, so we will understand and internalize it more deeply as we explain it. God is faithful! Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 159 Registered: 7-2007 |
Colleen, actually my friend whom the Lord used to bring me out of the SDA church helped me with that too. But I prayed a lot before I wrote it. I do have the sense of "learning" this too. It's so different - just trusting entirely in the Lord for my salvation and not depending at all on my works - even partially. As an Adventist, I did believe that a person was saved by grace through faith, yet I didn't have the Holy Spirit and didn't have the assurance of salvation. I had the Sabbath, and thought I was "in the truth," so I hoped I'd be saved. Sometimes I find myself wondering if I'm "right" with God even now and then it seems that the Lord gently points me (once again) to Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith..." This particular friend has been a Christian for about 30 years, ever since she was converted out of Catholisism, and she's always pointing me to what the Bible says. (Of course I always prayerfully see what the Bible says, for myself, before I accept anything as truth.) Dianne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1323 Registered: 9-2006  |
Many people preach a gospel without mentioning the necessity of repentance but what does the Bible say about that? River | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 75 Registered: 10-2004 |
I had a relative tell me that when it talks in the Bible about "working out ones salvation with fear and trembling" that it was refering to daily Bible study and prayer. They said we need to maintain that relationship just as one would in a marriage relationship. It takes alot of work and commitment to make that marriage relationship stay strong and this person feels that as a Christian one needs to work hard at maintaining ones relationship with Christ because if you dont you will be lost. He also uses the verse in the Bible about the Vine and branches to illustrate his point saying that we need to stay connected to the vine in order to have salvation. Any thoughts on how to answer this? I know that Bible study is good for a Christian, but putting it up there with works sounds false and misleading to me. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 160 Registered: 7-2007 |
River; actually I wrote this to my sister who's an SDA. Adventists are always repenting, so there's no problem there. The problem I'm pointing out to her here is the constant un-restful, striving for salvation, that Adventists are always doing; and at the same time, not feeling as though they're saved. (I tend to have a little leftover "Adventist baggage" in this area too. Maybe I need to write to my relatives about it more, so the truth of our salvation - rather than the Adventist insecurity, can get thoroughly into my head and heart. I've written so many times to various relatives and others concerning how the Adventist doctrines are false, that I've gotten those things almost memorized!) Schasc, my dad pointed that text out to me once a long time ago. I got the impression that he thought salvation came from "work" as in cleaning one's home, making a big garden and keeping it free of weeds; etc. A friend pointed out to me though, that in the past, in the old covenant; the law was on the outside, so people kept it on the outside of themselves, while their heart could be unchanged. Now when we accept Christ, His Spirit writes His law on our spirits, inside of us. It works from the inside out - meaning, when a person first accepts Christ, he/she isn't automatically a wonderful full-grown Christian; we grow in the Lord. From what I'm learning, we are saved first. Fruits and works follow. When the Holy Spirit makes our spirits alive, we then WANT to pray and get to know Him better. Dianne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6628 Registered: 12-2003 |
Schasc, the context of that verse is very helpful. It's found im Phil 2:12. Prior to this verse Paul has talked about being like Christ who humbled Himself twice: first to leave glory and become human, and second to obey the Father to the point of death on a cross. But God exalted Him, and one day every knee in heaven and on earth will bow to Him. Then Paul says (v 12) that, in light of Jesus' humbled obedience, "just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; (v 13) for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Paul is not saying to work to stay saved; he's admonishing people to "work out" from within--to live according to one's having been saved--to continue to the end--the reality of their security and to live humbly obedient to God as did Jesus. Note verse 13--it completely explains HOW and WHAT this means: God is at work IN you--God is the one who, when you are born from above, gives you the will to work for Him and also gives you the strength and ability to work for Him.. It's all about living according to the power of God that is at work in you. It's not an admonition to keep growing so you keep your salvation. It's an admonition to live in humility, allowing God to "work out" in your life His will and His work. Remember, this passage is related to Phil 1:6 where Paul tells this same church that God, "who began a good work in you, will be faithful to complete it until the day of Christ Jesus." It's all about sumbitting to the Lord Jesus and living obediently to His Spirit. We are secure and saved--and we allow God to manifest His work in the world through us. Colleen | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 113 Registered: 5-2007 |
"I will never let you go." Not sure what book, chapter, or verse it is! hmmm, I just looked at biblegateway and found nothing, and a hundred google returns and nothing. Maybe it is not in the Bible! I did unearth this little gem though, but not sure about the theological accuracy of it. Contrasts "follow me" vs "have a relationship". sda's usually start talking about a relationship which makes me suspicious, just because I know the source. http://tinyurl.com/yv76pg (Message edited by larry on August 23, 2007) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1327 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dianne, My post was to no dig at you or your letter to your Adventist family. I know they are always repenting, but is it true Bible repentance or repentance from failure to be perfect, such as Sabbath attendance and any number of things. True Bible repentance is to realize that we are sinners and cannot save ourselves, admitting to the Lord we are undone so to speak, and we throw ourselves completely on his mercy and trusting his loving care and prior atonement. Their always repenting would be a natural outcome of the IJ. That is all I meant. I think your letter was a good start. Bless you in your undertakings to you family. Gotta go but I wanted to explain before it got away. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1328 Registered: 9-2006 |
Larry, Is this what you were referring too? Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. River | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 117 Registered: 5-2007 |
Yeppers. Thank you River! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 162 Registered: 7-2007 |
River, back when I was an Adventist, it was a combination of both. I would admit to the Lord that there was nothing I could do to be saved; while thinking at the same time that if I was "right" with God, He would be making me holier and holier, kind of "sticking" the Sabbath and the other "works" to my heart, so that I would be becoming more and more like Him. It didn't seem to be working though - I wasn't keeping the Sabbath or the other rules any better as time went on, so I would just "repent" all the more. I would read that verse in Eph. 2:8,9 which says that salvation is a gift from God, but since Ellen White says that we cannot say we're saved, I'd feel uncertain. I'd ask the Lord to forgive my sins though and since I'd read that verse, I'd feel like I "had salvation" for a little while. That feeling would never last though, and then I'd have to do it all over again. Dispite all this, I never really had that "cognitive dissonance" that some get (cluing them in that there's something wrong with the SDA church). It took someone else two years of fasting and praying and then pointing out where EGW contradicted the Bible, before I realized that the SDA church, to my utter astonishment! was a false church. Colleen, I like that second verse right after the one where it says to "work out your salvation..." that you pointed out. I looked it up after I read where you'd written it... "for it is God Who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Phil. 2:13) That's a good verse and it really explains the verse before it!  Dianne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1330 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dianne, I realize just what you are talking about, really it is a sort of hopeless and helpless repentance because it is mixed with untruth. While you see, true repentance has an added element and that is “faith”. We realize our helpless and hopeless condition, realizing we are undone and at the same time realizing that we can look to Christ for redemption and turn fully to him in faith as our only hope. So then we have a godly repentance for our sin and a solid hope in Christ. That combination of repentance and faith works together. Whereas the Adventist puts a little in Christ and perhaps (as Example) a little in E.G.W. That is not enough, faith in Christ alone is what gives rest. Sola feida or ever how its spelled (I can never remember how it goes) me being a defunct old coot. There are no half measures here. Sinners plunge beneath the flood, remove all the guilt and stain. Plunge beneath his precious blood and in him heavens rest gain. I feel such an outpouring of the Holy Spirit and a true knowing of Christ love when I think about it. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6633 Registered: 12-2003 |
May I live to be as "defunct" an "old coot" as you are, River! Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 163 Registered: 7-2007 |
Amen! Such a simple, complete and wonderful salvation! and yet SO hard for a new Christian just transitioning from Adventism to understand! The "gospel" of Adventism is such a deceptive false gospel. It takes it's adherents ALMOST to Jesus, but not quite. Even though it took a lot to get myself out of this religion, it's frustrating to write letter after letter to my relatives and others; and for them to not "get it!" Praise the Lord, that He brought me out!!! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1332 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dianne, Jesus will never show us our hopeless condition without revealing himself and holding out stretched hands at the same time. If he did we would be plunged into a darkest of pits in which our soul could not recover, utter despair would envelope us, and suicide would not be quick enough. This has to be done by the Holy Spirit, we can point them to Christ but he can never trust us with what he only can do. We ache for them and yearn for them to know, but they must come to this point to where they see their own hopelessness to save themselves and to the redeemer at the same time, as I attempted to put in words. As long as they look to the "mix" so to speak as you mentioned before they cannot come to that place of realization, the Devil dangles salvation before them, always just a little out of reach, while it is not his to dangle, he is really dangling a mix of truth and lies, heresy, and so no sooner than they repent ( a repentance not mixed with faith) they are plunged right back into darkness because of Satan's lies. It is not unlike the same stuff he pulled with Eve. There are people that never come to this place of redemption, never come to that place of rest, that haven for the soul, that true Sabbath of rest, but we can pray earnestly for them and true prayer of faith avails much. What we can do is point them to the same Jesus we came to. We can do our best, but to God we must leave the rest. I sincerely pray for your family as well as my own family and friends. River | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 165 Registered: 7-2007 |
That's true River, only the Holy Spirit can do that. For myself, God used a person to point out the contradictions, but it was still the Holy Spirit Who convinced me of all that. As I was studying my way out of Adventism, every so often a sort of mental "fuzzy dark cloud" would come over my "vision" and I'd have trouble understanding. My friend and I would pray and the "cloud" would evaporate. Then I could understand clearly again. That never has happened before or since - that "cloud" was clearly supernatural and not in a good way. It made me realize even more that the SDA church must have an evil spirit behind it. Dianne | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2006 |
What a great, thought-provoking thread. Salvation, dangling just out of reach, so true. I got to thinking about this almost gospel that is SDA, and began to list the "almosts." Jesus, the nearly God, provided a partial atonement, by which the believer is almost forgiven on the special 1844 Lay-Awake plan. The Almost Savior can only inspire somewhere between 10% and 50% assurance of salvation, depending on the believer's theology and self-deception skills. Of course, whenever he fails to keep the (partial) Law, he must wring out enough repentence to restore the previous level of assurance. Unfortunately, the believer also has been taught that as he approaches perfection, his confidence will actually decrease. Assurance is a guilty feeling, so depression is hope! | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1036 Registered: 8-2004  |
LOL!! Martinc, way to go with the words! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1348 Registered: 9-2006 |
Martinc, I had to plagiarize that and put it in my files, now that is worth copying down. Don't be surprised if it pops up in later threads. It was !SO! well said!!! River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6646 Registered: 12-2003 |
Martin, your post is so funny! Thank you...it made my day. So true!! Colleen | ||
| Luzisbornagain Registered user Username: Luzisbornagain Post Number: 104 Registered: 7-2007 |
LOL @ martinc. The funny thing is, that that post explains the way I felt as an SDA. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4194 Registered: 3-2004  |
LOL Martinc. If I did not laugh, I would cry. Thank God, we are no longer there. Praise God and Hallelujah!!! God is awesome. Diana |
