| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 622 Registered: 11-2005 |
Perhaps it is just my imagination and aging memory, but I continue to be dumbfounded by how distorted my former Seventh-day Adventist understanding of the Bible has been, compared to what the Bible actually says! We all know how Ellen White rewrote (and the Bible Story Book, vol 1, graphically portrays) the story of Adam and Eve being tempted in the Garden of Eden so that Eve supposedly strayed from Adam's side and was alone and then went looking for Adam, while Genesis 3:6 NIV clearly states Yesterday I discovered that Noah and his family did not go into the ark seven days before the flood started -- in spite of the fact that the Seventh-day Adventist Bible story books state in great detail that the Lord locked them into the ark seven days before the rains came, and people stood outside and scoffed at them. They went in the same day it started raining! Here is what the Bible actually says ... God told Noah seven days before it happend that in seven days it would rain. It would most likely take that amount of time just to load all the animals in the roughly 2 acres of floor space in the ark! Today as I road the train to work I was reading about the Tower of Babel. I was taught that they built the tower to escape any future flood. I have often wondered about that because I have read historical accounts that estimated the tower's eventual height at about 320 feet. We have mountains close by that over 5000' and so that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Furthermore the air traffic control tower for Salt Lake City is about 380 feet. Imagine my shock at reading the following: As I think about it, it wouldn't make any sense to build a tower to escape another flood. There wouldn't be enough room at the top for everyone. They wouldn't build it on a plain. They would put it on a mountain top. Furthermore, surely they knew of God's "rainbow promise" that he would never cover the earth in another global flood. Perhaps my memory of what I was taught as a Seventh-day adventist is just failing me? How often have we used the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Story series for evening worship in order to make the stories interesting for our children. There are times all the intentional, and continuing, deception on the part of the Seventh-day Adventist leadership makes me really angry. That anger is not directed at the members, who are just as gullible and trusting as I was. Church leadership must be held fully accountable for their continued charade. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Blessed Registered user Username: Blessed Post Number: 76 Registered: 1-2007 |
Thanks Gilbert for bringing those things to our attentions. It continues to amaze me that SDA's don't notice the contradictions from Ellen to the Scriptures. After I became a born-again Christian I went to Bible School so that I could get some correct doctrine into my head rather than Adventism. That was 37 years ago and I continue to learn (thanks to the forum) lots of things where Ellen and the Scriptures are opposite. I know how you feel - I have been there and at times continue to be there especially when dealing with people who are entrenched in that religion. Blessed | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 758 Registered: 6-2006  |
My poor husband runs across stuff like that all the time. When he does, I just pull the Bible out and we look it up. At this point he still just thinks "well that's odd." but it doesn't occur to him that maybe he really needs to look at the bigger picture. Hopefully someday he'll be able to throw all those weeds out! Thanks Gilbert. Great thread!  Leigh Anne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1320 Registered: 9-2006  |
This all reminds me of one of those old westerns where the lead cow runs over a cliff and the rest of the herd follows till the last cow has plunged to its death. E.G.W plunges over and the rest follow. River | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 103 Registered: 5-2007 |
Gilbert, the father of all deception works just as hard at keeping the "leaders" decieved as the laity. I am sure they are all "blind leading the blind" in this case. Jan Paulsen really does believe that his salvation would be comprimised by leaving the sda church (to reference a web article I have seen about him) We cannot hope that the whole system of sda will be dismantled. Each person who God prompts will have to junk the system for himself, one at a time, in my opinion. This is all James and Ellen were required to do from the aftermath of Miller, but were too decieved, proud, and/or stubborn to do so. Instead, they traveled around, agitating, agitating, spreading their heretical ideas to other receptive Millerites until a critical mass developed. The right thing to do would have been to repent of it all instead of agitating. So those early lies, twisting and heresy lead to a veritable Mardi Gras and cornucopia of subtle lies that escaped the lips and pen of the false prophet and her mate, all authored by the father of all lies. I find it interesting that the Noah account mentions a specific 7 day period, but you don't find Noah taking the sabbath off. No mention made. It would have been real easy to reference it somehow if the sabbath had been practicef back then. As for "escape any future flood" and Babel, isn't that a subtle way of saying the people did not believe the rainbow covenant? Nothing mentioned about it in the bible, just egw assertions resulting from the father of all lies. Analogous to a certain "sect" not believing in the new covenant today! We should come up with a 20 point quiz for current sda's to show them how twisted their thinking is. Make it real simple with stuff they think is a slam-dunk. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 627 Registered: 11-2005 |
Larry, I really like your idea of a 20-point quiz! Regarding Ellen and James being only deceived, it appears that the reality of history is not that kind. There is ample evidence that James White (just like Joseph Smith) knew exactly what he was doing, and did it well. My personal feeling is that Ellen White was deluded, but of clear enough mind, to continue to "milk" the power of the growing Seventh-day adventist organization, as well as the "money mchine" that it represented. That, in itself, goes way beyond anything that can be limited to being deceived. I know of no bank robber that would claim they were "deceived" when caught. Ellen White was lucid enough to understand what seh was doing. The White Estate, as well as her followers, would vehemently deny any claim otherwise. A challenge anyone to read the following references and come away with any other conclusion. This was fraud and deception on a massive scale by those in leadership positions, and still is. She "used" them, and they continue to "use" her. http://www.truthorfables.com/The_Desirer_of_Wages.htm http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw25.htm http://www.ellenwhite.org/canright/can11.htm http://www.truthorfables.com/EGW_Will.htm Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6614 Registered: 12-2003  |
Gilbert and Larry, I agree with you. Ellen's legacy goes beyond the scope of merely being deceived. (Interestingly, being deceived is clearly considered "not innocent" in the Bible. Paul clarifies that Eve, not Adam, was deceived and fell into transgression. She was held responsible for her sin even though she was initially deceived.) I also agree, Larry, that individual Adventists will have to make personal choices for integrity. People leaving Adventism need to begin worshiping with Christians who have no Adventist background in order to begin to see and understand the Bible more accurately. As our son Roy says about his going to a Christian high school for his last three years, "It was what God did to teach me how to live in the Body of Christ." There is so much we don't understand because our lives have been lived in a culture shaped by falseness. God teaches us truth by our being united in His body by the Holy Spirit. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6615 Registered: 12-2003 |
Speaking of Adventist weeds, I have to share a quote I found in the current edition of Seventh-day Adventnists Believe, An exposition of the fundamental beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. This quote from page 182 in the chapter "The Remnant and It's Mission" is set in the context of a discussion of the devil seeking to kill the Child of Rev. 12:1-6, 13, 14). They identify the Child as "the long-expected Messiah, Jesus Christ. Satan, warring against his archenemy Jesus, used as his instrument the Roman empire. Nothing, not even death on the cross, could deter Jesus from His mission as Saviour of humanity." (emphasis added) Excuse me? The cross was His mission! The chapter continues by identifying the apostasy of the Catholic church, the eventual Reformation, and the emergence of The Remnant of the last days: the people who would declare the Three Angels' Messages to the world. Has the identification of those first three angels in Rev. 14 seemed arbitrary to anyone else? They were pragmatic--their messages could be construed to define Adventism. Colleen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 629 Registered: 11-2005 |
Colleen, I continue to be dumbfound by the onslaught of disinformation they spew out. It makes one dizzy. No wonder that when we were members we felt like we need to leave the interpretations for the "experts". I sense that people like Alden Thompson are searching desparately to try to find some way, any way, to rationalize this rubbish -- and they know that they can't keep the "ghosts in the closet" forever. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 615 Registered: 5-2007 |
Gilbert, what do you think is gonna happen when those "ghosts" finally do "get out of the closet". I especially wonder what Adventists would think IF they knew of the wildly nutty things that Ellen and the "little flock" did in Maine in the days after the "Great Disappointment". Wonder what they would do IF they knew Ellen and the "little flock" crawled on the floor and barked like dogs as a fanatical excerise in humility. I shared that story with my son, who also no longer believes in Adventism and we really had a good laugh! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6621 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Gilbert, I also sense Alden rationalizing...but so far his loyalty to the church is keeping him in dissonance, as I see it... Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2052 Registered: 10-2004  |
From Colleen's quote of the official SDA belief book: "Satan, warring against his archenemy Jesus, used as his instrument the Roman empire. Nothing, not even death on the cross, could deter Jesus from His mission as Saviour of humanity." Wow, Colleen, those two sentences are too blasphemous for words! In other words, they're saying that Satan killed Jesus, but it couldn't deter Him from His mission to save humanity! Umm, NO! God's Word says: "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." (Acts 4:27-28 NASB.) And Revelation 12 says that Satan wanted to "devour her child" when she gave birth (Herod wanting to kill the baby Jesus)--but he was NOT able to. But these blasphemers turn it around and say that Satan WAS successful in "killing" Jesus! But as the above verses say, and as Jesus said Himself, He was TOTALLY in control and laid down His own life (to SAVE us!) and said that NO ONE took it from Him! (John 10:17-18.) Jeremy | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 617 Registered: 5-2007 |
So they DENY the Cross. Just WHAT Gospel do they teach????? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2053 Registered: 10-2004 |
Gilbert, EGW also said that God broke off the top of the tower--and the Bible says no such thing. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6622 Registered: 12-2003 |
Actually, I hadn't even pondered the implications of that statement saying Satan killed Jesus. It goes along with the general belief within Adventism that God does not kill or do "bad things". Satan is responsible for all destruction. I'd never before thought about the ultimate implications of that teaching. It not only says God is not sovereign, that Satan is actually more powerful than Jesus because God can't stop Satan and still preserve his free will, but it says Jesus' sacrifice was not His own choosing. Adventists will quote the text saying Jesus lay down His own life, but this sentence out of their official explanation of their 28 Fundamentals suggests that Jesus' crucifixion was ultimately a work of Satan, not of God's own decision and choice. I cannot believe how insipid and small the Adventist Jesus is. We worship "the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God" to whom "be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen." (1 Tim 1:17) Colleen | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 431 Registered: 8-2006 |
Doesn't that idea fit in with the "Great Controvery" theme though? That there is an ongoing battle between Jesus and Satan? Satan struck a terrible blow in killing Jesus on the cross, but still it couldn't sway Him from His mission? That makes me ill. Susan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6624 Registered: 12-2003 |
Actually, yes, Susan--it does fit the GC theme. And you're justified in feeling ill. isn't Jesus awesome to pluck us out of this dark deception and to reveal Himself to us? How amazing is that, anyway?! We don't even have to feel ashamed of what we've been. He took it on Himself and took it to the cross. We are new in Him, and no one can take His new identity away from us. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1227 Registered: 4-2000  |
Gilbert, Thanks for sharing the REAL Bible stories. The extrabiblical writings of Ellen White are very similar as those found in the Urantia book(www.urantia.org) by Dr. William Sadler. Imaginative insights at best. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 65 Registered: 11-1999 |
In reading these posts, the realization is: there is virtually nothing--not even the simplest Bible story--that hasn't been tampered with. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 631 Registered: 11-2005 |
Lori, I know that is mind-boggling, but the evidence is overwhelming. I am reminded of J. Edgar Hoover's statement to the effect that if the deception is great enough nobody will ever believe that it is not true. Mormonism is at lest up front about having another gospel. The deception withing Adventism is just plain sickening. We should be making it a number 1 priority to see that everywhere that Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and Christian Scientists are listed as cults that Seventh-day Adventism is listed right along side of them. We are not doing nearly enough to alert the Evangelical world of Adventism's true nature. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 624 Registered: 5-2007 |
I have said it before and I will say it again that Adventism has the "whitest fleece" of all the wolves out there. Mormonism, JWs, and Christian Science can be seen as false by "inspection". They don't hide their errors and in fact seems to be kinda proud of some of them. Adventism is so much more subtile. There is just enough truth mixed in that one can be sucked in if they aren't grounded in the Word and do not know the true Gospel. That's how I got sucked in. I was ignorant of the Bible and the Gospel, and an easy target for Adventist deception. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4179 Registered: 3-2004  |
My cousin who lives near Lake Tahoe and is devout SDA sent me an email about an Assemblies of God minister who became SDA and if I remember right took his congregation with him. He must not have know his Bible very well. She did this after I told her I had left adventism. As for me, I was hooked from birth as I was born into it. We have an awesome God who does not leave us where He found us. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1338 Registered: 9-2006 |
I keep hearing about this AOG minister that went belly up Adventist, think what a feather in the Adventist hat that must have been. Your right Dianna, he must not have known his Bible, unfortunately there are some who get into the ministry who are unfit or just plain rebellious against the word they have access too. Men such as this are more dangerous than the average deceived but sincere Adventist minister I would suspect. River | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 1076 Registered: 7-2004 |
All of your descriptions of Adventism reminds me of Jesus' metaphor of a cup that is sparkling clean on the outside and full of filth and disease on the inside. Adventists are very careful of appearances. If you follow the party line you wear no makeup or jewelry whatsoever, your clothing is never suggestive, your speech is pure and clean. You are careful to eat only healthy food and alcohol never passes your lips. On the surface of things these are all good, and give those who are looking on the impression that the adherents to the faith are squeaky clean. Most of the people involved in the religion are doing whatever they can to maintain this appearance. Then there is the matter of being the "People of The Book." I learned a lot of scripture, one verse at a time, while I was in school. I was taught the Adventist version of the bible stories, some of which have been exposed in this thread. That means that the characters in the stories, even though they were living in Bible times, were vegetarians who never touched an ounce of liquor. Does anyone else here see the irony of this "image maintenance?" How sad it is for those who have spent their lives denying themselves those things that they might secretly desire, but would not touch because they've been taught that it will interfere with their salvation (which, of course, it will if they believe it to be so). How many potential sports stars, actors and performers have dried up in their own husks because of their belief in the nonsense put forward by Adventism? As for really knowing the bible--we were encouraged to read the scriptures through annually. I never made it until I fell away from the church. I tried, got confused (the stories I was reading were a little off from what I believed about them), so I put the Bible down when I got into the begets. I never even dreamed of starting somewhere other than Genesis until I started pulling away from the organization. It is a system beautifully based on pretenses! It's supposed to look good, even heroic (all of those missionaries doing so much with so little), but in the end it is still 90% truth, 10% lie, and even a little lie will turn the truth into something you cannot rely on. Belva | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4203 Registered: 3-2004 |
Oh Belva, I started with Genesis and got as far as Isaiah/Jeremiah. I got so scared about what happened to the CoI and because I had been taught that we spiritual Israel, I was so scared I quit reading the Bible. The only Bible I read were verses printed on a card. Did not open the Bible for years. Then I read about EGW and started reading the NT and the rest is history. I have even read the book of Isaiah, at the airport and on my trip to Little Rock in June of this year. What a change God has made in me. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 808 Registered: 7-2004  |
Actually, reading in Genesis around 12 years ago is what started giving me a glimpse of what grace really is. This was about the time I became interested in giving God a try again. I had not been in any church for several years, and decided to start from the beginning. What I found is that God is sovereign. He did what He promised regardless of people's behavior. For example, it really struck me that Abraham and Jacob both messed up several times. Yet God just kept on with His plans and didn't even wait for repentence. That reading planted the idea in my head that maybe even if the IJ were true, we could relax and count on God to change us in His time. Maybe if we needed to be perfect by a certain point, God would bring that about before it was too late. I love how God uses so many different ways to teach each of us, on a timetable that works best for each individual. (Message edited by Raven on August 26, 2007) |
