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| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 985 Registered: 10-2002  |
I thought I'd share something that I find a little surprising. I live in Japan where the general religion is Buddhism mixed with animistic Shintoism (although most people say "I'm not religious", in fact what they mean is that they are not overly occupied with religion or that they do not think about it often; in fact the country is still very religious). Anyway, so there are temples and shrines EVERYWHERE. When I went into one Buddhist temple and saw how dark it was, the incense burning, lanterns hanging from the ceiling & room, the big Buddha towering & leaning over, I really got a feeling like, "So THIS is what the Israelites saw in the neighboring countries!" It felt so oddly Biblical to see those things -- not a good "Biblical", mind you, but simply like something off of the pages of the Old Testament. There are many supersitions among the Japanese people (though not half as many as in China), and so at temples, shrines and festivals there are always little games or good-luck charms or things you do to get a fortune, etc. My observation is that generally most Adventists I've seen tend to be not uncomfortable with these things. Visiting famous temples or shrines is popular just as a sightseeing/tourist outing, and as missionaries we did that several times. I knew some missionaries that even got good-luck charms, did the little good-luck games at shrines or temples, or other little things like that. As an SDA missionary I even did some. A few of the older & more conservative foreigners (usually Americans) were a bit more strict and refused to go on the outings, but far and away it seemed like most Adventists were comfortable with it. It was just a tourist thing. And the little good luck things were just good luck charms, just games, etc. Having met the Holy Spirit and left the game of Adventism---forgive me, but many of the "aims" or goals of Adventism are just that -- a game, a distraction, something that you strive to achieve but which is not the REAL important thing, the only important thing: the Gospel)---having met the Spirit and left the game of Adventism, I see these things much differently I hope. There are people here who are desperately hungry for the REAL God, for the Living God, for His comfort, grace, and the knowledge that He is sovereign and in control. The idolatry is SAD, because it is such a poor, poor substitute. It is such a distraction, such a wild goose chase; it is NOTHING, but many people are looking to it like it is SOMETHING. And yeah there are little "games" or "charms", and they may seem harmless, but they are not. There are so many people who go to them because they have nothing else and know nothing else! So when I see people praying at temples or shrines, part of me aches now. And when I walk into one, if I'm spiritually awake, I realize it is not "neutral ground", it is not just a tourist ground. It is a war zone, and though it looks peaceful, there is a heavy cloud and spiritual darkness, a spiritual battle. There are times I go there still or take friends when they want to see one, etc., and so it feels like I'm slipping back into "tourist mode", but I know I am not comfortable with it anymore. Thank You, God! I want to pray every time I end up going to one of those places. Anyway, I just wanted to share this observation -- that most Adventists I've seen here seem to be not uncomfortable with these places and their little good-luck charms or games. They seem not so bothered by idolatry. It reminds me of a girl I knew from Calvary Chapel who attended LaSierra University. She was very upset about how one of her religion teachers at LSU spoke respectfully about and talked graciously about people in Buddhism or other religions who didn't know God, but how God could still save them, etc. But the same teacher blasted other churches and denominations and talked about them being deceived by Satan and having the mark of the beast, etc. The girl was shocked and surprised at this. The SDA teacher believed that God had more grace for non-Christians than for non-Adventist Christians. Similarly, as I mentioned in the article in the May/June Proclamation! magazine, among most Adventists in Japan the issue of keeping a Buddhist family altar (butsudan) is not too big of an issue. For many (most?) people it is a non-issue because they don't see it as a problem. Anyway, I just find it interesting that the 4th commandment is held so high yet the 1st & 2nd are taken a bit more casually. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6612 Registered: 12-2003  |
Ramone, I find your comments above to be very profound. Although I haven't been to a non-"Christian" country, I have also noticed that the farther I have gotten from Adventism and the more real the Lord Jesus has become, the more I am aware of spiritual darkness in places I never used to sense it. I share your understanding of Buddhist temples. For similar reasons, we chose not to visit the new Mormon temple when it was built. Now, it's OK with me if others chose to go. But for Richard and me personally, visiting it seemed to us like a choice to walk into darkness, and in our work with this "former" ministry, we felt we experienced enough spiritual battle already and chose not to go where we know evil had a specific claim. Again, I'm not saying others shouldn't go. In fact, I know some people who actually see Mormon temple openings to be opportunities for ministry. But it wasn't a venue God was asking us to visit. I visited a temple opening years ago when I was an Adventist teaching at Gem State Academy. I remember feeling so curious about the whole thing...I wouldn't have missed it. I was not aware at all of anything dark associated with it. It was a noticable thing to me that I felt very differently about the local temple opening now that my life is so different. You make such good points above, Ramone--truly the Holy Spirit gives us increasing spiritual discernment, and the more we take Him seriously, the more clear these things are. And God asks to act with integrity in response to His promptings. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 987 Registered: 10-2002 |
You're right, Colleen -- while it's true we don't have to worry, we shouldn't be ignorant of what's spiritually going on there. If you find yourself going to such a place, it is best to pray before you go and ask for God's discernment -- it may be for prayer, intercession, witnessing, anything. What C.S. Lewis said about "devils" is applicable, that there are two opposite errors people can fall into -- denial that demons exist on one end and an unhealthy interest in them on the other end. With such touristy outings, it is easy to fall into the first trap without realizing it, thinking that it is just a neutral space and that nothing is going on spiritually. Yet wouldn't it be the enemy's way to have us regard false things with a casual attitude? Isn't one of the devil's greatest tricks to convince people he doesn't exist? And interestingly, when people become very casual about it (not realizing the enemy's presence or the seriousness of it) then they become irritated at people who *do* realize the enemy's presence & its seriousness. Of course it is not just Adventists who may take idolatry lightly -- other Christians do, too. It's just that in Japan, between Christians and Adventists, I've generally noticed that Christians tend to be more spiritually sensitive to what's going on at these places & events, while Adventists in contrast seem to take them much more casually as if they were harmless. In great irony, among Adventists the suggestion of visiting "a Sunday church" arouses much more alarm. Visiting an idolatrous temple or shrine usually arouses much less alarm or objection. Actually, not only visiting a "Sunday church", but even the suggestion that "it is okay to worship God everyday (even on Sunday)" can also arouse the same alarm & objection. I'm curious -- has anyone else noticed anything like this? What do you think? Any explanations? | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 691 Registered: 4-2006  |
Well, I think it is physiological, we act on how we see danger, if all your life you have heard about how dangerous Sunday worship is or how bad the church is who worships on Sunday, you will hesitate going there. On the other hand if you never heard about dangers in the worlds false religions ... see where I'm going. I think a good book on the general subject would be something like: Beyond Fear by Bruce Schneier. In Jesus, Martin | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 603 Registered: 5-2007 |
Adventists worship an idol themselves. It's called the Sabbath. They elevate it above Jesus and have made it their god. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6617 Registered: 12-2003 |
I know a dyed-in-the-wool Adventist loyalist who dosn't know much about the Bible personally but is deeply committed to Ellen as a prophet and the SDA chruch as God's true remnant. This person exhibits some pretty intense anger which isn't too far under the surface whenever Adventism is questioned. I've always thought it was extraordinarily revealing when, a few years ago, this person visited an alive Christian church for a special children's program which was being done as a community evangelistic outreach. After the incredibly well-done program which was followed by a clear gospel presentation, this person left and said, "I'm never going back there. That church has a bad spirit in it." I personally thought that statement was revealing of his own spiritual compromise... Yes, Ramone, I've noticed the same phenomenon you mention re: Adventists being less sensitive that other Christians, in many cases, to the reality or presence of evil. Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 158 Registered: 7-2007 |
Colleen, what you said about that person who visited an alive Christian church saying they'd never go back because it "has a bad spirit in it," was so astounding and so sad. I'd have to say that if it "were not for the grace of God, there go I." I'm SO thankful that the Lord delivered me out of the Adventist church! The "gospel" of Adventism is such a close counterfeit when casually looked at, yet the difference between the real gospel of Christianity and the false "gospel" of Adventism, is the difference between life and death. Dianne | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1028 Registered: 8-2004  |
This reminds me of the time I went through my home praying, asking God to fill the house and each room in it, and ordering everything not from God out of the house in Jesus' name. There was an SDA who also lived in that home. The SDA arrived home that night, remarked that the home no longer felt 'safe', and prayed for God to please return the house. It was quite a strange experience. Mary | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 433 Registered: 8-2006 |
That is really creepy, Mary. But it strengthens my conviction regarding source of the spiritual stronghold that is Adventism. Susan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2058 Registered: 10-2004  |
I also believe that the high rate of incidence of occultic experiences in SDA schools, etc., should be reason for pause. I know that a lot of people on here have mentioned these things before. Jeremy | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 988 Registered: 10-2002 |
Very true, Jeremy. My mother's family had demonic harassment in their home at night when they were children, and I don't know that anyone exerimented with occultic things that early in life. How did the door open? I've pondered and prayed about it. Perhaps one open door is when the real Jesus is rejected, as in Ellen White's vision/teaching that Christians were worshiping Satan impersonating Christ. When the real presence of Christ is said to be a satanic interpretation, then His presence may feel "evil" as Mary shared about how her roommate felt. Now it reminds me of times when, as an Adventist, I felt uncomfortable with Christian places or "faith in the air". There were times I was creeped out a bit, although I can't remember them specifically. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 633 Registered: 11-2005 |
Colleen, I used to daily walk across Temple Square to go between the train and bus on the way to work. The Mormon Church is so powerful here that they bought one block of Main Street between their world headquarters complex and Temple Square and made it part of the "compound" forcing us to walk through it to get to the bus stop on the other side. People would stand in awe gazing at the LDS temple in Temple Square, little realizing that it is covered with Masonic symbols. For more information check out: http://my.the-rising-tide.org/truthcentered/uploads/UtahTempleSquareQuestions.doc http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/masonicsymbolsandtheldstemple.htm http://www.utlm.org/images/masonictemplearticle/sunstonevol10no5may1985_p40.gif http://www.inplainsite.org/html/masonic_and_mormon_symbols.html http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/templeofthegodmakers.htm http://mormanity.blogspot.com/2004/07/occult-symbols-on-lds-temples.html http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/templetour.htm Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 107 Registered: 5-2007 |
Agepetos and Jeremy, I has been my observation that when historic sda's pointed their fingers outside their camp and condemned all the Christian world, as did the vision in "word to the little flock" they are really condemning themselves. Everything they say about the "opposite side" really is about them, since they are out of phase with the truth. My next point is, early sda's claim, as you both brought up, that regular Christians prayed to or worshipped Satan impersonating Christ (in the Holy place of the heavenly sanctuary). Aside from the blasphemy of it all, I think it really points right back at the accusers. There is a spiritual principle involved here. In the sda mind, they followed this lie about the 1844 sanctuary compartment changeover, praying to Jesus in that new compartment. But there is still the LIE in it, and who is the father of all lies? Satan of course. In a sense, they are the ones who are honoring, praying to, or worshipping Satan, not the true-gospel-believing regular Christians without all the distinctive "special truths". But it is so subtle that it is very difficult to detect at times. It may be that Satan has placed a spiritual imprint on egw writings and sda beliefs. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. It is as creepy as Mary illustrated. | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 625 Registered: 5-2007 |
Even if the Adventists dumped EGW and the Investigative Judgement, and the Sunday Laws, and allowed individual liberty of conscience on non-salvific issues such as age of the earth, state of the dead, day of worship, etc., and preached the TRUE Gospel, I could not go back to it because of the fact that it was founded on a LIE(the 1844 thing). That ALONE is reason enough to not believe in Adventism. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6631 Registered: 12-2003 |
You are right, Larry. A lying prophet is not neutral. The Bible is very clear about them. Satan is the father of lies. Colleen | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 115 Registered: 5-2007 |
I guess if the sda prophet said that Christians are praying to Satan, which is wrong, then sda's are praying to a lie. It truely is an ugly thing, it even feels ugly to be typing it. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1331 Registered: 9-2006  |
It is the presence of the Holy Spirit that they do not like. Only Spirit filled Christians are comfortable around the Holy Spirit. River | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 882 Registered: 1-2003 |
What do LDS and SDA have in common...(I can think of several things but...) Both groups appear outwardly pious. No alcohol, no drugs, no caffeine, vegetarian (for SDA's)...they appear so righteous. But then so do Bhuddists! Contrast that with a real man of God, Luther, who drank beer, ate schnitzel, etc. Sometimes there is a way that seems right to man...but where does it lead? |
