| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 581 Registered: 11-2005 |
Reb, I am confused. Since your wife is a Seventh-day Adventist, doesn't she attend this Seventh-day Adventist Church? Why can't your son just ride with her? That frees you up to go to the Seventh-day Baptist Church. End of problem #1. That also creates a situation which may very well work to your advantage. If indeed he hates the SDA church as much as you say he does, it will be no time before your wife gets tired of "dealing" with him, since you aren't physically there. Eventually she will give up, and let him do what he wants to do. It sounds like he is close to that age anyway. If she is taking him to the SDA church, she sure won't be able to blame you! It will happen on her "watch". End of problem #2. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 135 Registered: 7-2007 |
Reb, I just looked at this thread. First I looked at what you initially wrote and then I thought I'd ask a question. Doesn't Jesus say somewhere in the gospels that if a person puts ANYONE ahead of Him, they're not worthy of Him? And what about people being burned alive at the stake? If it was up to me, I'd FAR rather have a spouse VERY angry at me than be burned at the stake, yet those people chose to be burned at the stake rather than turn from Jesus. I'm afraid I DON'T understand. | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 542 Registered: 5-2007 |
Gilbert, Problem is she is a nurse and works every other Sabbath. The Sabbaths she is "on duty" are the only ones I was able to attend SDB church. I feel like I have to go to SDA church with her when she's off. I actually got to go to SDB church only once when she was off duty and I got the feeling that I better not "push things". I was able to negotiate to get one Sabbath a month at the SDB church under this new arrangement but that's not enough, that will be 3 Sabbaths I have to go to SDA church and hear the nonsense in the Ellen White Indoctrination Hour(Sabbath School) sit through a lousy sermon where Christ isn't even mentioned. She SLEEPS through the sermons so she doesn't even hear some of the nonsense I'm subjected to hearing when I have to go there. Even before I became Adventist, when I was still a Baha'i I pretty much had to go to SDA church so this is nothing new. I wish I had never been a Baha'i before I became SDA. If I had been a Christian when I married my wife, I would've been able to go to a non-SDA church without static, 2 of her sisters are married to Lutherans and it has worked out well for them. Doggone it, WHY didn't I know and have Christ in the first place?? IF I had been Baptist or Methodist or Lutheran or Eastern Orthodox when I married my wife, she would've just let it be like her sisters who are married to Lutherans did with there husbands. But because I wasn't a Christian at the time, I was a "sitting duck" to get sucked into Adventism. I myself am to blame for a lot of this and it wasn't like I didn't know about Christ. I had attended a Reformed church for a while and an Anglican Church for a while in the time before I married my wife but I thought it was "cool" to be a Baha'i. A lot of hippies had become Bahai's and I looked up to the hippies and wanted to be like them. Yeah, look what it got me. IF ONLY I had been a Christian in the first place. (Message edited by Reb on August 14, 2007) | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 71 Registered: 6-2007 |
Reb - I was just going to ask the same question as Gilbert. Why isn't your wife at the SDA church. You talk in all your posts about you dropping him off and picking him up, and her yelling at you when she comes home from work on Saturday. Doesn't she ever go to the SDA church? Please think long and hard before throwing messianic jews into the equation. As a former SDA, I considered that many times - just as the least painful way to escape adventism yet still cling to the sabbath. Reb, I have to ask you straight out... do you still believe in keeping the 7th day sabbath according to the 4th commandment? Do you still believe you are obligated under that commandment, under the jewish law? Laurie | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 543 Registered: 5-2007 |
She does go when she's not working and then she sleeps through the sermons. Please don't blame her, she can't help it she was raised Adventist and is 3rd generation that's all she knows. I just keep on loving her and it will work out. I don't believe at all that I am obligated to keep the Sabbath I do it out of preference. I am thinking long and hard about throwing messianic jews into the equation. It's not my first choice anyway but if it works it might be worth a try? My wife is just so into Adventism and I am so not smart enough to convince her otherwise. I suppose I could just "defy" her and take my son to SDB church with me again and see what happens, that's another option. But I am just not smart enough to convince her that Adventism is false. I wish I were smart, but I'm not. | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 72 Registered: 6-2007 |
Reb - I appreciate your honest answers to my questions. I too was raised adventist, 3rd generation so I do understand. I'm not quite sure I understand your "preference" regarding the sabbath. And you stated that you "keep" it out of preference. This is just my humble opinion here, but I feel if you had a true understanding of the sabbath, you would have no preference over any day and would have no preference to "keep" any day over another. Please, stop saying you aren't smart. Obviously, you are plenty smart. I implore you to re-read all the advice given to you in this post. This is some of the best, heartfelt, genuine and sincere advice I have ever read on this forum. Laurie | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 544 Registered: 5-2007 |
I agree it is great advice and I will reread it. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2038 Registered: 10-2004  |
Reb, It isn't a matter of being smart enough or not. It is a matter of a spiritual veil blinding people's minds. Keep praying for your wife. Jeremy | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 545 Registered: 5-2007 |
I will keep praying for her. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 582 Registered: 11-2005 |
Reb, The terms you use make me cringe: - "I feel like I have to go to SDA church with her when she's off." - "I got the feeling that I better not "push things"." - "I was able to negotiate to get one Sabbath a month..." - "I wish I had never been a Baha'i before I became SDA" - "WHY didn't I know and have Christ in the first place" - "because I wasn't a Christian at the time, I was a "sitting duck" to get sucked into Adventism." - "I myself am to blame for a lot of this" - "Yeah, look what it got me." - "IF ONLY I had been a Christian in the first place." Reb, Listen to us (please). All of these are excuses and you know it. What you were doesn't matter. Jesus takes each of us as we are. You know full well that those excuses will be totally useless at God’s judgment bar. You are not being asked by the Holy Spirit to "die". You are being given an opportunity to make a choice. Are you going to be faithful to the Holy Spirit's promptings? What would it take? Being blinded like Saul. And don't think for a moment that the Jews weren't 100 times more angry than your wife is, when he converted to Christianity. Daniel had to take a stand. Esther had to take a stand. This is the test that God has given you -- today. The past doesn't matter, but your future will depend on the decision that you make today. What is the depth of your commitment to the one who was willing to die for you? It is a fact that your wife looks to you to be a leader, spiritual as well as physical. You earn her respect by filling that position. Women become angry and disappointed when they are forced into that role. If she dictates to you what you are to do, as leader of the home, things will only get worse if you allow that to continue. Women on this forum who are much wiser than I can give you suggestions on how to regain your leadership position in a loving way. I understand the logic behind your wife working Sabbaths. My wife is a RN (no longer working) who used to do the same thing. That is your wife's choice. The fact is that if she feels strongly enough about your son attending the SDA church she will have no other choice but to rearrange her schedule and take him, unless she can manipulate you with threats. In my opinion, it is time for you to be honest with yourself. This is not a game. This is a fight for your salvation, your son's salvation and your wife's salvation. She sure won't follow if you aren't leading! I suspect that the reason you want to attend the SDB instead of a fellowship that worships on Sunday is to avoid the emotional outburst that would accompany your announcement that you are going to fellowship somewhere on Sunday. It is least painful to rationalize the path to least resistance in everything that we do. That, unfortunately, is not how we become like "gold tried in the fire." And it certainly would have been much more expedient for Jesus to just blot all of us sinners off the face of the earth. Remaining faithful to Him is the least I can do. if you truly do not believe that keeping the Seventh-day Sabbath will help you earn your way to heaven then another possibility is to offer you wife two choices. 1) Attend the Seventh-day Baptist Church each Saturday. She is responsible for getting your son to the SDA church. 2) Do like HonestWitness is doing and attend a Christian fellowship of your choice on Sunday, and on the Saturdays she goes to the SDA Church you go with her. She is still responsible for getting your son to the SDA church. Often it helps to defuse a confrontation by offering a person two choices. As the leader in your family, that is what I would encourage you to do. That allows them to still feel like they have a little control since they are the one making the choice. I do that a lot with my son, for example. Perhaps, with your wife's sisters attending the Lutheran church, she might consider that to be a preferable choice for you as well, if she can somehow get you to attend the SDA church with her. You must be totally honest with her. No games. None. She is your wife, and partner. You owe it to her to be totally trustworthy. You expect the same of her, I am sure. I suspect that the youth group at the Lutheran church would be far more attractive to your son than anything the SDA church has to offer. And since there is not a Sabbath conflict for your wife, who knows, someday she might accompany you to Sunday fellowship. The goal at this point needs to be to cement firmly in place your weekly attendance with a Christian fellowship. Anything less than that, and you have failed. Please forgive me if I have overstepped my bounds, but I feel an urgency to "speak from the heart". Your brother in Christ, Gilbert Jorgensen Reb, The terms you use make me cringe: - "I feel like I have to go to SDA church with her when she's off." - "I got the feeling that I better not "push things"." - "I was able to negotiate to get one Sabbath a month..." - "I wish I had never been a Baha'i before I became SDA" - "WHY didn't I know and have Christ in the first place" - "because I wasn't a Christian at the time, I was a "sitting duck" to get sucked into Adventism." - "I myself am to blame for a lot of this" - "Yeah, look what it got me." - "IF ONLY I had been a Christian in the first place." Reb, Listen to us (please). All of these are excuses and you know it. What you were doesn't matter. Jesus takes each of us as we are. You know full well that those excuses will be totally useless at God’s judgment bar. You are not being asked by the Holy Spirit to "die". You are being given an opportunity to make a choice. Are you going to be faithful to the Holy Spirit's promptings? What would it take? Being blinded like Saul. And don't think for a moment that the Jews weren't 100 times more angry than your wife is, when he converted to Christianity. Daniel had to take a stand. Esther had to take a stand. This is the test that God has given you -- today. The past doesn't matter, but your future will depend on the decision that you make today. What is the depth of your commitment to the one who was willing to die for you? It is a fact that your wife looks to you to be a leader, spiritual as well as physical. You earn her respect by filling that position. Women become angry and disappointed when they are forced into that role. If she dictates to you what you are to do, as leader of the home, things will only get worse if you allow that to continue. Women on this forum who are much wiser than I can give you suggestions on how to regain your leadership position in a loving way. I understand the logic behind your wife working Sabbaths. My wife is a RN (no longer working) who used to do the same thing. That is your wife's choice. The fact is that if she feels strongly enough about your son attending the SDA church she will have no other choice but to rearrange her schedule and take him, unless she can manipulate you with threats. In my opinion, it is time for you to be honest with yourself. This is not a game. This is a fight for your salvation, your son's salvation and your wife's salvation. She sure won't follow if you aren't leading! I suspect that the reason you want to attend the SDB instead of a fellowship that worships on Sunday is to avoid the emotional outburst that would accompany your announcement that you are going to fellowship somewhere on Sunday. It is least painful to rationalize the path to least resistance in everything that we do. That, unfortunately, is not how we become like "gold tried in the fire." And it certainly would have been much more expedient for Jesus to just blot all of us sinners off the face of the earth. Remaining faithful to Him is the least I can do. if you truly do not believe that keeping the Seventh-day Sabbath will help you earn your way to heaven then another possibility is to offer you wife two choices. 1) Attend the Seventh-day Baptist Church each Saturday. She is responsible for getting your son to the SDA church. 2) Do like HonestWitness is doing and attend a Christian fellowship of your choice on Sunday, and on the Saturdays she goes to the SDA Church you go with her. She is still responsible for getting your son to the SDA church. Often it helps to defuse a confrontation by offering a person two choices. As the leader in your family, that is what I would encourage you to do. That allows them to still feel like they have a little control since they are the one making the choice. I do that a lot with my son, for example. Perhaps, with your wife's sisters attending the Lutheran church, she might consider that to be a preferable choice for you as well, if she can somehow get you to attend the SDA church with her. You must be totally honest with her. No games. None. She is your wife, and partner. You owe it to her to be totally trustworthy. You expect the same of her, I am sure. I suspect that the youth group at the Lutheran church would be far more attractive to your son than anything the SDA church has to offer. And since there is not a Sabbath conflict for your wife, who knows, someday she might accompany you to Sunday fellowship. The goal at this point needs to be to cement firmly in place your weekly attendance with a Christian fellowship. Anything less than that, and you have failed. Please forgive me if I have overstepped my bounds, but I feel an urgency to "speak from the heart". Your brother in Christ, Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 546 Registered: 5-2007 |
Gilbert, it's her sisters husband's that are Lutherans her sisters are SDA they just didn't convert there husbands and they are in Indonesia anyway, her sisters are SDA it's their husbands that are Lutherans. What Honestwitness is doing actually sounds like something I could live with. I really liked the Eastern Orthodox Church when I was attending it "under the radar" and when I mentioned to my wife that it is the original Church founded by the apostles she didn't argue with me. Her only question was why do they eat portk and not "keep" the Sabbath. I explained to her that the Orthodox Churches have Saturday evening vespers. Maybe I could go to Eastern Orthodox Church on Sundays and SDA church with her on Sabbath. I do like the SDB church, though and would actually like to stay there. I will just pray, trust in God and see what happens. Don't feel like you have overstepped your, bounds, Gilbert, you are right in what you have said in the above post, I need to get in weekly attendance at a Christian fellowship. Your brother in Christ, Reb | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 583 Registered: 11-2005 |
Reb, Since: 1.You like the Seventh-day Baptist group that you meet with but there is a conflict with your wife's Seventh-day Adventist Church meeting the same day. 2. "Seventh Day Baptists are evangelical Baptists who hold to keeping the seventh day Sabbath of the Bible as sacred time." (http://www.seventhdaybaptist.org/7db/Default_EN.asp) 3. The SDB church is a "A Baptist Church With a Difference" (http://www.seventhdaybaptist.org/7DB/E-Store_EN.asp?SnID=2) 4. Since you shared with us, "I do like the SDB church, though and would actually like to stay there." and "I don't believe at all that I am obligated to keep the Sabbath" ...one possibility that comes to mind is to just attend a local Baptist church on Sunday instead of Saturday. You would want to visit more than one since they are all different -- just like Adventist churches. Baptists have a rich heritage that goes way back through the Waldenses and on back (per Baptist History books). There are also many former Adventists that migrate to Baptist fellowships since there are many similarities in worship style. (In many ways, Baptist and Evangelical Free are very similar.) If you are going to attend a Sunday fellowship anyway, it would be a minor theological transition. Most likely you wouldn't have to drive far either! I would encourage you to try a week or two, and then reflect on your impressions. We will all be praying for you. <hugs> Your brother in Christ, Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Cloudy Registered user Username: Cloudy Post Number: 36 Registered: 7-2007 |
Gilbert, I have read several of Gurian's books from the library, they should be readily available there for one to peruse before purchasing. Reb, Your wife may not be into adventism as much as you think if she regularly sleeps during church. When I was still attending SDA church and not happy about what I was hearing I found that I regularly fell asleep during church, too. I guess it was the best way of not having to listen to things that were bothering me. I also suspect this because she has advised you to ignore the things you hear at the church which you don't believe just like she does. If she thinks the special message of the SDA church is the sabbath and the dietary restrictions, would she be willing to attend a Saturday evening church service at a non SDA church? This would increase your options over the SDB/MJ/SDCG options quite a bit. Many large, growing churches have a saturday evening option. Rather than doubting your intelligence, your wife may perceive you as flighty/impulsive because you were a B'ahai because it seemed "cool" and are attracted to "new" ideas such as Ross' old earth theories, etc. She may need more time to see that this is not just a whim on your part, but a real life shift from within. She also knows how much you are craving those "flesh pots of Egypt" (pork, shellfish, etc.) and may wonder how much you are lead by your stomach rather than the Spirit. She needs time to process the change(s) in you as well as her own thoughts. Praying for the Spirit's guidance for you and your family . | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 548 Registered: 5-2007 |
You are right, Gilbert that Seventh Day Baptists are like other Baptists except for going to church on Saturday rather than Sunday. There's a Sunday Baptist church not far from my house. Hmmmmmmmmm that's a thought. I can just tune out the Adventist baloney when I have to go there and fellowship with Christians on Sunday. It's a good idea, Gilbert. Cloudy, I think you also have a good idea. I really liked the Eastern Orthodox Church and they have Saturday evening vespers. Hmmmm I think you may be on to something with maybe I am percieved as "flighty/impuslive" rather than my intelligence being doubted. I'm not stupid as I am in a Grad programme in Mathematics at Cal Poly Pomona and doing quite well and I have a professional-level job so I'm not dumb. As for Dr. Ross' theories, my acceptance of those are not a "whim". Being a Grad student in a scientific field(Mathematics) I am convinced the science is sound. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 584 Registered: 11-2005 |
Cloudy, I canceled my Amazon order. You are so smart. I don't know why I didn't think of the library! My wife uses it all the time. | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 73 Registered: 6-2007 |
Reb - I was just doing the dishes and this song came on the radio and I thought of you. Please read these lyrics. The night I drove to the SDA church to give my membership resignation letter to the board, I sat in my car in the dark. I was terrified, scared, confused. I sat there and cried. I didn't know where I would go if I left the SDA church. What if I was making a mistake? Where would I go? What would my family say? Then this song came on the radio. I sat in my car and listened. Then I got out and handed in my letter. Casting Crown... Voice of Truth Oh what I would do to have The kind of faith it takes To climb out of this boat I'm in Onto the crashing waves To step out of my comfort zone Into the realm of the unknown where Jesus is And He's holding out His hand But the waves are calling out my name And they laugh at me Reminding me of all the times I've tried before and failed The waves they keep on telling me Time and time again. "Boy, you'll never win!" "You'll never win!" Chorus: But the voice of truth tells me a different story The voice of truth says, "Do not be afraid!" The voice of truth says, "This is for My glory" Out of all the voices calling out to me I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth Oh what I would do to have The kind of strength it takes to stand before a giant With just a sling and a stone Surrounded by the sound of a thousand warriors Shaking in their armor Wishing they'd have had the strength to stand But the giant's calling out my name And he laughs at me Reminding me of all the times I've tried before and failed The giant keeps on telling me Time and time again. "Boy you'll never win!" "You'll never win!" But the stone was just the right size To put the giant on the ground And the waves they don't seem so high From on top of them lookin' down I will soar with the wings of eagles When I stop and listen to the sound of Jesus Singing over me I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth. Reb - listen to the voice of truth. You know what it is. Laurie | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 265 Registered: 1-2004  |
Reb, I also think it may be time to take a stand and do what you believe in. It's a hard decision to make. I haven't been exactly in your place. I didn't have the commitment of being married, so the only restraint for me (after becoming financially independent) was thinking I'd be letting down those who cared for me by disappointing them. You'll have to be careful in taking the proper lead in your relationship... those of us who don't have much experience being the boss may not use that position too effectively at first. Keeping things secret from those who you don't want to upset is not ideal but sometimes must be done for a short time. Being open and honest is great but fear of bad results often prevents it. One note on Baptists and Waldenses; Baptists may not actually be much more related to the Waldenses then SDA's are. It is nice to try and find a link through history from your church to the Apostles, but some things just don't hold up under investigation. Taking your wife to vespers at the Orthodox church could be interesting. I really have no idea how she'd react. I know she'd find it "different"! She might appreciate hearing the Psalms in that ancient setting. Jeremiah | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1612 Registered: 7-2003 |
Reb, I see so many similarities in what you are doing and the past of what I have done. Now, I wasn't legally married, but I was just as committed in my heart. My now ex kept me in emotional bondage...always afraid he would leave, always in fear he would turn our son against me, always afraid..... I prayed and pleaded with God for him to be the spiritual leader I knew he should be, but you can't lead when you have no living spirit inside. Read Romans 1-3. Good, moral people can be and are lost for all eternity, even if they're just following childhood traditions. Jesus is the only one who saves you. The difference between you and HW's situation is she actually followed Christ out of the SDA church, solidifying her own spiritual strength before returning AT GOD'S LEADING, not her own understanding, to keep peace with her husband. I cannot begin to speak for your situation, but I've come to realize that I was in an emotionally and psychologically abusive situation. I spent seven years praying for a man who wasn't a sheep at all. I thought he was so misguided, living the religion he was taught from childhood. You know what? he condemned me quite easily for following the traditions of my family's faith. Do not hear me with specific advice, just ramblings of my own experience. What good is it if a man gains the whole world, or keeps a wife who blackmails him so she won't leave, and loses his own soul?? If an unbelieving spouse choses to leave, let her go and be at peace with all men. If your wife would leave you for not going to the adventist church...think about what you're saying about the relationship in reality. I lost my battle. The ex actually did chose to leave, and it was harder than I imagined. But I've survived. I do not know exactly how things will shake out when our custody battle is concluded, but I had to realize that this IS the answer to all those prayers I've prayed. God allowed what he allowed so I would be free from all attachments and romantic fantasies about him from here through eternity. I don't know what God is speaking to you. Maybe you need to stand up for Jesus, even if it outwardly angers your wife, even if she leaves. Better to be at peace with God, than (wo)man. Fear is not from God and if you are living in any sort of fear for your wife's response, it's not godly. Very smart people can be swayed by emotional causes, even over logical reasoning. The contest is not truly for your wife, or even your son. TODAY, chose who you will serve. I know how hard what I'm suggesting is. I know the price to lose your family. But what I know I still have is more lasting than anything I've lost. God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind. | ||
| Tricia Registered user Username: Tricia Post Number: 67 Registered: 3-2006 |
Reb, I attend a large Baptist church in my little town and I love it. I can't describe how spiritually fed I'am there. Also, a lot of Baptist churches, especially larger ones, have exceptional, very active youth programs, for your son's age. I was just thinking, if you like the SDB church, I really have a hunch that you'll like the Baptist church, also---maybe even better!! I would love for you to try it one time because I just feel like you'd really find what you're looking for. Of course, this is just my opinion--I'm pretty well sold on the Baptist churches! I know the Lord will lead you to where you're supposed to be. Tricia | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 309 Registered: 11-2005 |
Here is a quote from a book I've been reading that says it better than I can: "...If I can learn to be absolutely, totally, completely and unreservedly honest to God--up front with every dealing of His Spirit in my heart, responding to His promptings and submitting to His corrections--there is immeasurable joy to be found and immeasurable sorrow I'll be spared. Furthermore, immeasurable blessings will be poured out on others through the channel of a heart that remains unpolluted and available to the Holy Spirit's pure grace-workings!" Reb, I can't begin to understand your situation. But I do know that God asks us to act with integrity. God guards and protects an honest heart. And when we completely submit our lives to him (including our fears and confusion), God Himself will continue to defend that heart against any delusion, manipulation, self-made rationalizations, etc. God WANTS to protect us from things that may cause us to stumble. But in order to do that, we must maintain integrity of heart and be open to His direction and trust His leading. None of us can tell you where God is leading you. That's between you and God. But I believe you've felt His conviction and know the direction He's leading you. Reb, I say this humbly, with love, and also as someone who struggles: Listen to that voice, and walk in obedience to it. Grace |
