| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1274 Registered: 9-2006  |
Jay, I believe it was Reb you were addressing and not me, however I enjoyed the fact that you have a farm, not having to live under fear anymore, it can come in handy to have acreage and be a great blessing. Reb, it appears to me that you are going to have a fight going on two fronts, your wife and yourself. If you sit there and smolder under SDA-ism pretty soon all this is going to build up and will find an outlet of some kind, be careful when it does. It might be good just to find a place where you can dedicate the time without interruption to pray through on this and be determined to to come up until you do. I can't go through your trials for you, but brother I can stand with you in them and pray for you and give you encouragement and support. The first thing I experienced when coming to God was the trials starting, it was like I got out of the fat and into the fire, there is a scripture concerning this. Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. Hebrews 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? Hebrews 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Hebrews 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Hebrews 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; Hebrews 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: These trials that you are in Reb, will help you minister encouragement to someone else some day. I am lifting you up in the name of the Lord Jesus. Honestwitness, I enjoyed your testimony, I don't see how you keep from barfing in the floor or at least turning a rat or two loose in the pews for entertainment.  River | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 477 Registered: 7-2005 |
Jeremy, 1. Paul had not went to the temple and performed those ceremonial rituals planning to preach to those who were at the temple. He had not showed the least intention to do this, and this is confirmed by the plan made with the church leaders 2. Adventist churches are not like pagan temples, full of idols, which makes the worship of true God impossible. The temples of pagan religions were full of idols which represent false gods, and honoring those idols, paying respects to them, participating in the pagan ritual inevitably lead to the worship of the entities represented officially by those idols. It's true that for many adventists the sabbath is their idol, but it's not in the same sense a pagan idol was an idol. The proper use of sabbath was to point to the true God, not to a false god. If someone chose to worship God on sabbath, because he think that honor God by doing this, according to Romans 14, he is free to do this, since sabbath pointed to the true God, not to a false God, as a pagan idol. In this way, it's still possible for those who made an idol from the sabbath to remain sabbatarians and at the same time cease to worship it as an idol, honoring the true God, since the sabbath was a pointer to the true God. At least, Reb can preach to his wife and to his friends, in one-to-one conversations, and in this way he can made a difference for Christ. Not a difference for the SDA church, but for some individuals with whom he will be in contact. Since adventists love the law, Reb can uplift the law according to Romans 3:31. He can use the law according to its purpose
Reb, you can use the law to stop the adventists mouths who are full of pride because they consider themselves "keepers of the law" and despise those who worship on Sunday. They cannot accuse you that you are against the law, and at the same time, they can gain an understanding that their righteousness before God cannot be achieved by anything they do. And remember, you can help them see their need of the pure grace of God without raising a finger to criticize their beliefs. They believe that the law must be honored, and you are honoring it, even more than them. Legalism is based on the assumption that people can do something pleasing to God, that someone can please God by what he's doing, in order for God to give him grace, forgiveness, justification etc. The law which was given to make the sin look more sinful (Romans 3:20; 5:20)is looked by legalists as a means to justify them before God "We kept the sabbath, Lord, not like those pagan sunday-worshipers" the reality is that othing we do can please God in some way or another, in order to appease Him to give us His grace. The law closes the mouths of legalists. Reb, you can win your wife to the gospel without asking her to renounce sabbatarianism, or her attachment to the law, without starting a war. There is no need to enter in a win-loose situation, in which if she wins you loose, and if you wins, she loose. God bless you, Proksch Gabriel | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4138 Registered: 3-2004  |
Reb, Seeing as you have been attending an SDB church, and your wife wants you at an SDA church, maybe on Sunday you can attend a Christian church near where you live. Or maybe there is a service on Saturday evening. Look around and see what you can find. Stay connected to Christ and find fellowship with other Christians. I am praying for you friend. Diana | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 742 Registered: 6-2006  |
Jackob/Gabriel, I'm very glad to see you back again - I've been missing you! Reb, are you still with us?? In love, Leigh Anne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2026 Registered: 10-2004  |
Jackob, What did King Hezekiah do with the bronze serpent that pointed to Christ, that had become an idol? Did he let Israel keep it and just tell them not to idolize it anymore? Or did he destroy it? See 2 Kings 18:3-5. Also, did Paul let new Gentile believers keep their old idols and simply refrain from worshipping them? Actually, he said that those new converts who had a weak conscience should not even eat any foods sacrificed to their old idols. And he says that the strong believer should not embolden someone into practicing idolatry, by participating in an activity which for the other person would be idolatry. (See 1 Corinthians 8.) Jeremy | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 156 Registered: 7-2000 |
Reb, I am not scholar or expert in the law or theology of any kind. Quite frankly, I find it exhausting when people intellectualize and theologize the simple and obvious into oblivion. I am a simple woman, wife, mother and now former Adventist, who has learned to allow Jesus to be Lord of my life. When I was blind and in the thoes of Adventism, I did know or understood the meaning of allowing my husband to be the spiritual leader in the home. I learned the mother was responsible for the salvation of the children. I was driven and in control mode to save my children. If your wife has absorbed any of EGW's family life teachings, her behavior though not excusable,is quite understandable. I hope the picture you have given on the forum about your family communication is better in actuality. However, if your description about your wife's attitude and reactions, over the weeks, is accurate, I will say, your family may do well with some serious professional counselling. Women need and want men to be less passive and more leader. They want their men to help them be more nuturing than taking and being in control. A woman will respect a man more if he lives by convictions rather than by her manipulation and control. My humble opinion as always Erma | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 478 Registered: 7-2005 |
Thank you, Leigh Anne I'm not going to post very much, I decided to come to help Reb in his difficult situation and encourage him. Beside this, I'm leaving the town in the next two hours for two weeks, and I have no guarantee that I will have the possibility to post again. Jeremy, you are right that Hezekiah destroyed the brozen serpent, what makes you think that the way king Hezekiah acted applies to sabbath keeping in particular, or that it is normative for dealing with God's symbols anytime in any condition? I don't deny that this is a legitimate way of dealing with sabbath, I sustain just that it is not the only proper way to deal with. I see Romans 14 which deals directly with the keeping of the days being a more proper example when it comes to dealing with the sabbath, which is a day of worship, not a bronze serpent. Regarding 1 Corinthians 8, Paul's argument is that believers who are free in Christ and know their freedom should adapt themselves and restrict their conduct in the presence of those weak in faith. For example, somebody who abstains from eating meat sacrificed to idols, because for him eating the meat means an act of worship, must be treated carefully and people should abstain also themselves from eating that food, since for that guy, eating that food means worshiping the idol. The assumption is that people conscience should be respected by abstaining for practices which in their eyes constitute grave sins against God. Adventists don't look at their sabbatarianism as idolatry, so keeping the sabbath with them is not a sin in their eyes. Proksch Gabriel | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6532 Registered: 12-2003  |
Reb, the bottom line is that you stand before God alone. You are unilaterally responsible to God for your decisions. Pressure from others is never an excuse for doing what we believe God is asking us to do. River is right; you need to earnestly seek God's will for you in this situation. Your wife's pressure is not the factor that must determine what you do. Ultimately, your own surrender of this situation to God will yield the course you must follow. Ask God to help you know what is true, to know His will, and to give you His strength and humility to do what he asks of you. He will show you what that is. Ultimately, God holds us responsible for our own personal responses to truth. As Dale Ratzlaff has said, acting against one's conscience will shipwreck one's faith. Concurrently, refusing to know the truth will also shipwreck one's faith. Truth involves more that theology. Truth involves knowing our own motives and being willing to stand humble and repentant before God, willing to know His will. We can't depend on any other person to reveal truth to us. We have to submit the the Lord God and allow Him to teach us what is true. Praying for you, Reb... Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2027 Registered: 10-2004 |
Jackob, regarding the bronze serpent, we were not discussing God's symbols in general, but idolatry specifically. You had said: "...it's still possible for those who made an idol from the sabbath to remain sabbatarians and at the same time cease to worship it as an idol..." Regarding 1 Corinthians 8--it does not matter whether or not they recognize it as idolatry; the idolatry should still not be encouraged! And verse 10 of 1 Corinthians 8 says that the person may think it's ok because of our "innocent" activity. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6533 Registered: 12-2003 |
As I understand it, Reb isn't worrying about what to do with the Sabbath. He has chosen to worship at the Seventh-day Baptist church out of deference for his wife's Sabbatarianism preciesly because of Romans 14. If I'm understanding you correctly, Reb, it seems the issue is specifically whether or not you will cease attending the SDB church and continue taking your son to the SDA church and going there yourself. I see this issue as more complex than simply a Sabbath question. Reb, there is great peace and freedom when we submit our fear and control to God and allow Him to reveal Himself to us in the midst of our confusion. The personal crisis is always being willing to give up our control or fear in favor of God's will being done. Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 743 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jeremy, I know I'm not a moderator, but this thread is for and about Reb... who I'm wishing would come back and let us know how he's doing... Maybe you could continue this in another thread? with love | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1207 Registered: 4-2000  |
Reb, It is increasingly evident that you are at an important crossroad in your life. It is my heartfelt prayer that you will not buckle under the heavy load. Above all, don't let anyone interfere with your personal faith in Christ. Belief transitions, at best, are not without trauma. May God give you added strength to act upon your convictions and to triumph over your current dilemma! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1002 Registered: 8-2004  |
Reb, My heart aches for you. Your pain brings back many painful memories from my own experience. . . But Reb, it is not a game, and you lose only if you quit. God has called you. Your wife has contradicted that. When it comes down to it, who do you serve? It is our business to obey God rather than man (or woman either for that matter). Have you clear direction from God? Stand up and act on it! Are you unsure? Ask God to sweep away the cobwebs (that grow into worse than iron chains) that are befuddling your senses. Ask Him to not only make your path plain, but to move your feet down it - admit the weakness that is keeping you 'halting between two opinions'. Stick with it, no matter how painful it is till you know what action He has called you to. If Jesus as you've come to know Him is God, follow Him no matter where He leads you (He will not steer you wrong no matter how rough the road he takes you over). If the SDA Jesus is God then serve him. We are called to love our families (and husbands especially to love their wives) as Christ loved the church. You can be absolutely certain Christ does not love the church by skulking around, playing games, hiding, and pretending. You can be absolutely certain He does not love the church by hoping the church doesn't see how different He choices are than the ones it makes. More than that, He loves it too much to let it stay comfortably in error. 'Love' that would keep the loved one in falsehood is no love at all. On the other hand He is also not a cosmic bully. He calls his beloved to come and follow Him. There is no room in His love for coercion, force, and fear tactics. Just so it is no more your business to coerce your wife than it is hers to dictate to you. Jesus said, "And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:36-38). He was not joking. There is a cross for those who follow Him, and their families sometimes provide the fiercest opposition they will face. When God called me out of Adventism, someone I dearly loved (and still care for deeply) ordered me to keep hidden from our children any way in which I differed from Adventism. He 'gave me the freedom of my conscience' for whenever I was not with the family, but otherwise I was to stick to practices and beliefs that we'd held all our lives as Adventists (with various edits and updates of his own, but that does not enter into this discussion). I tried do do as my husband required, against what I knew to be truth. It did not help anyone. All it did was place me in a position of hypocrisy and deceit - a place God lets no one rest complacently (though some appear immovable). Whatever is not of faith is sin. For me to pretend to be Adventist to placate an angry spouse was a sin. It was my way of saying that my 'making deals' would protect me in a way that God would not if I simply walked with Him in faith. It was a sin that I came to repent, and one that I'm sure contributed to the break up of our family. Reb. You want to keep your wife. This is a worthy want. What are you willing to surrender in the bargain? Is keeping someone under false pretenses a fair price to pay? Is losing your peace with God? Is watching your children suffer under the spirit of fear that SDAism operates in? Can you make yourself believe that 2 plus 2 equals 5 because someone will be mad at you if you don't? Can you keep a healthy respect for the person who forces you to do that? Is Jesus still worth it if you lose your wife? Can He redeem even this to your good and His glory? Is Jesus worth it if you are shunned, scorned and ostracized? Is He trustworthy to deal with your wife as she needs so that He can draw her to Himself for herself? Can He be trusted to know by what means she be drawn? I have written to you before about 'allowing' and 'forbidding'. It is not the business of any full-grown human to dictate to or take orders from any other full-grown human in matters of conscience. To drive someone to act against their conscience is an abuse of the use of the tongue (or of any other instrument used to communicate the dictation). To allow another human to dictate to you is to enable the abuse to continue. "She won't let me" is a cop-out. It will hold no water with your own peace of mind. More than that, it will be no excuse before God. I'm not telling you what action to take. That is God's business, and He's quite capable of making it plain to you. I am telling you to quit yourself like a man, be strong. I'm praying for you Reb, and I know many others are here too. Two thousand demons (give or take a few - a Legion anyway) were not enough to keep the demon possessed man from Jesus, were definitely not enough to keep Jesus from freeing the man . . . so what do we who only have ourselves and our families to surrender have to worry about? And if there are demons seeking to hold us back what of it? We have committed ourselves that wonderful God who "is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think" and He is working in us! Not only that, He has promised that even these things will work together for good to them that love Him. I can testify that this is true. I look forward with joy to continuing the journey God has set before me, even though parts of it already have seemed unbearably hard, because I know He will be with me all the way home - He won't drop me on the doorstep. I pray that you will find your peace in surrender to Him, no matter where that takes you. Blessings, Mary | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 570 Registered: 11-2005 |
Mary, What a wonderful testimony. You expressed my sentiments as well. This is not a game. It is about our eternal destiny, as well as that of our children. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 208 Registered: 10-2006 |
Reb, Listen to Mary. steve | ||
| Blessed Registered user Username: Blessed Post Number: 69 Registered: 1-2007 |
Reb, I can't imagine what this must be like for you - I feel such a burden for your situation. I think that you have received some excellent counsel from many of the other forum members. I believe that you need to stand firm in love and take spiritual headship in your home. I know that it will not be easy but I believe that the Lord will honor it and I will be praying that your wife will see the love for the Lord that you have and be moved by it. This is definitely a strong spiritual battle that you are in and I continue to pray for you. Blessed | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1278 Registered: 9-2006 |
Mary, That is about as good a slice of wisdom as Reb or any of the rest of us will get. I don't know about anyone else, but that really spoke to my heart. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4145 Registered: 3-2004 |
Mary, you speak from experience and from the heart. I think it is very good advice. Listen to Mary Reb. Diana | ||
| Toria Registered user Username: Toria Post Number: 183 Registered: 2-2006  |
Reb; You are in my prayers. May our loving God give you the strength and courage you need to do what you know is right. Blessings, Toria | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 529 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hi, Thanks everyone for all the support. I'm back and I'm not giving up. My wife's main concern is that our son attend SDA church as she feels it's the only thing that can keep him out of gangs and we live in a gang-infested area. She doesn't seem to think that "regular" Christianity will do that. The reason why I took him to SDB church with me the past Sabbath was there was no one there yet at the SDA church we attend and the SDB church I have been attending starts at 10 am and it is an hour drive from El Monte to Riverside. She will tolerate me going to SDB church by myself as long as I drop our son at SDA church. I think the Lord has found a solution for me. There is an SDB Church in Gardena, CA which is much closer for me than Riverside is and starts at 11 am rather than 10 am so I can drop my son at the SDA church when there will be people there and still make it on time to SDB church. I need fellowship with other Christians and I need uplifting sermons. I was nearly disfellowshipped from the SDA church I attended for sharing my views a year ago and I have essentially been "gagged" by the Pastor there from sharing my views. I agree with Gilbert, I cannot give up the SDB church I have found a "home" there spiritually. I will however, have to find another SDB church that works out better logistically. Communincation in my family is not that bad, it's just over this issue that there are problems. My wife is very adamant about the SDA church but we communicate very well on everything else. Sunday church is NOT an option for me as I would have to "sneak" it "under the radar" I tried that earlier, I was going to Eastern Orthodox Church and really loved it but I would've really been in the doghouse. And I'm happy with the SDB Church, hear the Gospel there and am growing. SO I'll just try the SDB church that is in Gardena and I can drop my son at SDA church and pick him up. Problem solved. She didn't say I HAD to go to SDA church with him I just have to make sure he goes there when she is on duty. As for the boy he thinks Adventism is 100% baloney and I had nothing to do with that, the crazy stuff they taught in Adventist school turned him off from it. He said he is just going to ignore everything but he'll go there to make his mother happy. Meanwhile, I continue to teach him what the Lord is showing me. I am just going to keep on loving my wife and showing a good Christian walk. We actually had a great rest of the weekend, and I praise the Lord for showing me another option. He IS good and will NOT let me down. Soemtimes I just have to wait for His time. Thanks everyone for your support. Praise God! In Christ, Reb |
