| Author | Message | ||
| Sara Registered user Username: Sara Post Number: 35 Registered: 5-2007 |
I was listening to a tape recently, about the "Jezebel Spirit". It was talking about chuches, homes etc that put women at the head, as the ones with much control, ultimate authority, etc. What was amazing was the similarities between the discussion of the "Catholic Mary" and other Women led organizations, and the "Adventist Ellen" It was mentioned that Mary is almost always shown as holding Jesus in her arms, being the mature one, with Jesus as an infant. It was suggested that the worship went to the mother, who was mature, and the focus of attention. Jesus always remains depicted as an infant, when shown with Mary, and therefore immature. It was suggested that churches/homes that have a woman as the center, also have similar characteristics, where the body or family is dependent on the woman. Where is the stained glass window with Jesus as a man, perhaps putting his arm around his mother. Where is Jesus as the conquering King? Where is he as the Head?? I dont see that in the Adventist Church. Jesus remains an infant. I have been pondering this for several weeks, and can't seem to let go of the startling thought. IMO, Ellen White has that same elevated status as Mary in the Catholic church, or Mary Baker Edy, or whoever that other one is. Jesus is left as an infant of sorts, incomplete, immature, in some of these organizations, dependent on the "mother" to keep him, to present Him to others, to give access to Him. Jesus is not enough in these organizations. It is assumed that mere lay people cannot find Jesus or salvation through scripture and the Holy Spirit alone. They insinuate or even claim that mere lay people require extra-biblical support, writings, prayers, visions, etc. to get full knowledge of Jesus, to understand him. It is insinuated or even claimed that Jesus needs certain leaders/helpers to complete his work for him. (Maryroses, I dont mean any disrespect to you, as you are already dear to me in your posts. I don't even mean to single out any one church, but the parallels are intriguing, and easy for former adventist to grasp. I dont claim to be an expert on the Catholic church. I don't agree with the priest stuff, or the Mary stuff, but I know God works on individuals within that system just as he does in all religions) I'm not sure I explained this very well. The point is not are Mary and Ellen similar, or to discuss the Catholic church, Mary (Madonna image) being used for illustration only. The point is the DEGREE to which the adventist church has elevated the woman, Ellen G. White, and the fallout of that. It certainly is intriguing to me. Any thoughts? Sara | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 559 Registered: 11-2005 |
Sara, how perceptive! You are absolutely right. The irony is that I never thought of it that way. They always present her as the equivalent of a Biblical prophet, only even better because she is specific to the Seventh-day Adventist Church in the "last days". So I don't know whether to let them get away with "trumping" the fact that she is a women, with her status as a (false) prophet. There were women prophets in the Bible. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6521 Registered: 12-2003  |
Great insight, Sara. The "mother" connection between Mary and Ellen and even the more pagan connection with Sophia, the goddess of wisdom, and their eclipse of Jesus the Lord, King, and Conqueror, is fascinating. I think pretty much anything that diverts our attention from Jesus diminishes Him. Unless we see Him as All Sufficient, He becomes merely part of our theology. Even certain Christian theological emphases, such as a primary quest for the Holy Spirit or an equally intense quest for correct theology can eclipse Jesus and make Him merely a crucial part of the goal. Don't get me wrong—I'm all for question for correct theology and for the freeing, life-changing power of the Holy Spirit working in my life—but even these good things can eclipse Jesus if they are what we desire more than Him. The maternal and authoritarian role of Ellen and the mediatorial role of Mary, though, really do strip Jesus of His Sovereign might. Interesting insight, Sara! Colleen | ||
| Sara Registered user Username: Sara Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2007 |
Yes Gilbert, there were women prophets, but they did not try to "trump" Jesus. They did not try to manipulate or change His words or His divinity to my recollection. They didnt try to diminish Jesus. I guess the false prophet is a greater abomination, in the scheme of things. Still, the mama's boy image of Jesus is not biblical. It's not really my insight, just borrowing someone else's and applying it to Adventism. (wouldn't want to plagarize!  ) I really am trying to grasp the implications of this. Thanks for your comments. The pagan connection is interesting, Colleen. I agree with your comment that even good things can eclipse Jesus. There are few things more tiring to me than someone touting their brand of absolute "truth", especially when they miss the beauty of the simple gospel. | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 117 Registered: 4-2007 |
An essential difference is that Mary was chosen by God ( She, unlike Ellen, didn't just imagine it) and Mary would never lead people away from Jesus with a false gospel. Christology in the Catholic Church also does not represent an immature Jesus. Jesus is not weak or reduced in importance, nor is he dependent on Mary. While images of Mary with the infant Jesus come easily to mind, there is equal emphasis in Marian iconography on her relationship with him in other aspects of His life. (think of Michaelangelo's Pieta for example.) Catholics do NOT worship Mary, she is a creature, not divine. The entirety of Jesus's life in scripture is celebrated through the liturgical calendar of the Church year, beginning in December with the season of Advent, waiting for his coming, birth (Christmas), etc. We celebrate it all, the ones you have heard about; Good Friday, Easter, and the ones you probably haven't; Ascension Thursday, Pentecost, etc. Ending up with the feast on the last Sunday in November that Adventists never dream Catholics celebrate: The Feast of Christ the King, which culminates the liturgical year, celebrating the SECOND coming of Jesus as King and Conqueror. Then we begin again with Advent. While we also commemorate in our calendar the birth of Mary, the annunciation and a few other highlights of her life, she is not the focus of the Church year. I understand protestants are deeply suspicious of the honor given to her by Catholics, and by some of the titles used at times. I would also agree that at times, uneducated persons have gone overboard in their displays of devotion. Something to remember though, is where some of these titles came from. When the Divinity of Jesus was being challenged by the Arians and others, the title of Theotokos, "God-Bearer" was adopted ( I think at the council of Calcedon but its late to be looking it up) NOT because the bishops were looking to elevate Mary to some pseudo-divine status to be worshiped, but to emphatically declare that Jesus was both fully God AND fully human. This is the source of the English "Mother of God" It does not mean that Mary is the mother of the Trinity, or that she herself is a divine person, it means that Jesus is fully, truly God, and that he is fully, truly human, having Mary, a human like ourselves as his true mother. The title even has some biblical support: Luke 1:43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? Even for Catholics, marian devotions such as the rosary are entirely optional and not required, so they certainly are not required of Protestants in order to be accepted as Christians by us. Another reason I do not find her place in our Tradition to be inappropriate. I'm not trying to convince anyone here or start a debate, but I'd like to set the record straight on what I see as some misconceptions. My own position is rather plain to see, as my username is Mary's Roses. Traditionally, Roses are her flower and planted in her honor. Mary was the first Christian, the first to hear the name of Jesus and believe. She also gave of herself unreservedly and unselfishly in doing what God asked of her. I am not ashamed of honoring her for her faith and service. God Bless, MarysRoses | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2021 Registered: 10-2004  |
Marysroses, I was quite surprised when I learned awhile back that the title "Mother of God" ("Theotokos") was an orthodox statement of Jesus' divinity, and was not an elevation of the status of Mary. I had previously been told, and believed, that it was a blasphemous title! But the title actually is very good in counteracting the Gnostic/Nestorian heresy, by clearly asserting that the man Jesus IS God! Indeed, Mary did not just bear a man child, but God Himself in flesh! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on August 11, 2007) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2022 Registered: 10-2004 |
For those wanting to learn more about "Theotokos," check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokos#Theology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Ephesus Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1269 Registered: 9-2006  |
Colleen, Part of your quote was in post 6521 was “such as a primary quest for the Holy Spirit”. I think you meant seeking for the gifts of the Holy Spirit didn’t you? The Holy Spirit is Christ in us. The Holy Spirit is not a lesser part of Jesus and of course we must do all in his name and for him. It is perfectly legitimate to end our prayers “in the name of the father, the Son and the Holy Ghost is it not? However, without the Holy Spirit in us we are pretty much done. This is not to pick the nit, but if you meant exactly what you said, could you explain that statement in detail? With that all said, sometimes In the beginning of prayer and throughout prayer I use the word “Father” or “Jesus” to address God and although I never use the words “Holy Spirit” and I hardly ever use all three to end prayer. While it is true the Holy Spirit always points to Jesus, isn’t the names synonymous? Now this gets over into the trinity and I have said before, my eyeballs begin to roll around in my head when I think about the trinity. Anyhow, the Holy Spirit is Jesus in us isn’t he? Or do you make distinction? River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1270 Registered: 9-2006 |
MarysRoses, 1.Do the Catholics pray to Mary? 2.Do they pray to Saints? 3.Do they confess their sins to a preist as a mediator? 4.Do they believe the pope is head of the church? 5. do they kneel before statue's? I would like a yes or no answer if I could? These is not meant to be divisive or offensive, but since we have a real live Catholic here I just thought you could answer these questions for me. Please don't feel you need to answer at all. No doubt the run of the mill evangelical misunderstands much of the Catholic religion. I don't claim to have much understanding at all. River | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 204 Registered: 10-2006 |
To me, the SDA's think of Ellen as a modern day Moses, their leader, their "little Jesus", whose words supercede the Scriptures. Like Barry Manilowe, she "writes the songs" for them. Traditional SDA's consider themselves spiritual Jews, led by Ellen through the wilderness of modernity and trying to prove themselves worthy of entering the New Canaan. steve | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1271 Registered: 9-2006 |
I would just like to note that there are many, many issue's we struggle with here on this net. It is a given that we are here to do just that, struggle with issue's that are important to us and to articulate and divide truth from heresy and to hold on to that which is good and honorable and with good intention to all. Perhaps my questions to Marysroses above should not have been posed at all, and I think now they should probably not have been and may be outside the scope of this forum. As I went over the ten minute limit it is under Admin.'s controll. With respect and sincere honesty of heart to all. River | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 118 Registered: 4-2007 |
River I don't mind answering, if the administrators permit, however, I'm off to mass and then work and can't give the answers the time the questions deserve at the moment. I am not ashamed of my faith but I respect the purpose of the forum, which is not debate. Love ya! MarysRoses | ||
| Sara Registered user Username: Sara Post Number: 38 Registered: 5-2007 |
If I may, I would like to restate something I stated earlier, when I started this thread..... "The point is NOT are Mary and Ellen similar, or to discuss the Catholic church....." I was afraid of the digression, but believe the Madonna image is common enough that we can all relate. Marysroses and River and all, even though the info is helpful and very interesting, I hope that discussion goes to another thread, because I really wanted to discuss the weak, infantile Jesus presented in Adventism, and how it affects all of us formers. I think much of the reason for that is the teaching of Ellen G. White, and as a result, the Adventist emphasis on a weak or dependent Jesus. For example,I often pray while I am on a walk. As I pray, I try to picture Jesus walking beside me. When I think of Jesus walking beside me, I get mental images that are of a meek, mild, variety. Then I think of God, and I get a different picture. A more distant, yet powerful and even fearsome picture. I know in my Spirit, and to some degree in my mind, that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one. I believe that. I believe in the "trinity", and really want to discard my old views of Jesus as less-than God. My views are deeply ingrained. The adventist church is not built on the Rock of Jesus. It rallied under the influence of a female "prophet" at the head and a female who is still at the steering wheel, "the continuing and authoritative source of truth" attritubed to Ellen G. White. Adventism teaches by inference and doctrine that Jesus was unable to complete the work of Atonement that he came to do on this earth. It teaches that we must "help" Jesus save us, by becomming perfect. Therefore He is weak and dependent on us, rather than the other way around. I really just want to be free from such a non-biblical teaching. Please pray for me re this lingering stronghold. Sorry if I got us off track in the intro. Sara | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1273 Registered: 9-2006 |
Sara, So sorry about getting off kilter, In your thinking about Jesus it might help to read the letters to the Seven Churches in the first part of Revelations. He came to earth as a lamb to the slaughter, but his return will be triumphant and his judgment will be terrible for the unrepentant and the false prophet, man or woman. Does he appear to be a weak and Dependant Christ in these letters? River | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 568 Registered: 11-2005 |
Sara, You bring up such a good point! I am reminded of the song I was taught in Sabbath School about "Lowly Jesus, meek and mild ..." My impression from the writings of Ellen White was that she considered Jesus to be like a "lessor god", or in some places an "elevated angel", but never fully and equally part of the Godhead. One of the really great things about this forum is the rich dialog on so many of these subjects that Seventh-day Adventism is riddled with. Regarding River's questions to Maryroses, I would agree with River's follow-up post that they possess the potential for taking us outside the scope of this forum, which is to encourage and build each one of us up. Everyone here is a very precious brother and sister, and I know we all have the best of intentions. <hugs> Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 681 Registered: 4-2006  |
Dear brothers and sisters, grace and peace from our mighty Savior Jesus Christ. The Title Mother of God is very blasphemous to me, God does not have a mother. Mary was the mother of the man Jesus Christ, not God. Many fine Christian ministries are reaching out to the dear Catholic people, showing them the difference between the Biblical Jesus and His Gospel and the Jesus and Gospel of the Roman Catholic Church, among them: http://www.whateverycatholicshouldknow.com/ http://www.pro-gospel.org/ http://www.cwrc-rz.org/ http://www.eternal-productions.org/catholicism.html http://www.bereanbeacon.org/ May God bless you all, and let you grow in the knowledge of Him and His grace and love. In His wonderful grace, Martin | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6535 Registered: 12-2003 |
I do want to answer your question, River, about what I meant about primarily seeking after the Spirit as a means of diminishing Jesus. First, what I don't mean: I don't mean to remotely negate the gifts or the activity of the Holy Spirit in Christ followers. In fact, I believe the power and gifts of the Holy Spirit are often underesitmated among some circles of Christianity. What I do mean is that some people seek the "Spirit", hoping for personal experiences and power, without submitting themselves in repentance before Jesus first. For example, a friend of mine has taught at La Sierra University for over ten years. (That's the SDA university in Riverside, CA.) She has frequently mentioned to me over the past three or four years that among the SDA students she encounters, there is much "Holy Spirit" talk: students "seeking the Spirit", experiencing the "spirit", etc. Yet these same students show no evidence of knowing Jesus and, inf act, are uncomfortable with talk of Jesus. She said there seems to be a sort of "spiritual quest" that involves people who don't want to submit in repentance nevertheless seeking after power or a "spiritual experience" and an appearance of spirituality without the discipline of submitting to the the Lord Jesus. In no way am I referring to a Christ-follower asking God for the Holy Spirit to be powerful in his/her life. I'm referring to people who have a form of religion seeking spiritual experiences without dealing first with submission to Jesus. This sort of diversion away from the Source of forgiveness and grace is what I refer to when I say that seeking the Spirit primarily can diminish Jesus. Since the Holy Spirit exalts Jesus, I believe that this sort of "spirit-seeking" is often a spiritual diversion that's not really engaging with the true Spirit of God. Sara, I completely resonate with your reactions to the weak, dependent Jesus of Adventism who was unable to complete our atonement. I have also been asking God to teach me the truth about Himself, about the real power and identity of Jesus and the Trinity. Adventism does teach a weak Jesus who is implicitly "less God-like" that the Father, and I find your observations about the female prophet who wields continuing, authoritative power to be very insightful. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1275 Registered: 9-2006 |
Colleen, Thanks for clearing that up for me,I understand perfectly. your quote:"Since the Holy Spirit exalts Jesus, I believe that this sort of "spirit-seeking" is often a spiritual diversion that's not really engaging with the true Spirit of God." I think you are right on, in fact I fear for those students, they may find something they didn't expect to find. What I have found in the past is that people make a distinction between Jesus, the Holy Spirit or both as somehow being less than God, well, the same thing that Sara is struggling with and Sara you are not by yourself in struggling with these things, I have struggled with it myself without the help of Adventism. The first time God spoke to me through the Holy Spirit, at least I think that is the way it should be worded, I knew that my creator was speaking to me, Jesus is also our creator if I'm not mistaken. I don't pretend to have any great understanding into these things, like colleen I am praying for deeper understanding myself so that it becomes real to me and not just from a theological stand point. Me not having been Adventist maybe I am just blabbing but heres what worries me about this thing. He warned in one place Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. This is that Jesus of power speaking here, not a man child in a manger, not a lesser God, as for the Holy Spirit, remember the man and wife that lied to him about the property and payed with their life. As for the Jezebel Spirit I don't know, I suppose this is what you refer to Kings I 21:25 But there was none like unto Ahab, which did sell himself to work wickedness in the sight of the LORD, whom Jezebel his wife stirred up. Kings I 21:26 And he did very abominably in following idols, according to all things as did the Amorites, whom the LORD cast out before the children of Israel. My opinion, it is because of a deceiving Spirit and it used the one who it could use, that spirit would use man or woman and probably both were used equally in reviewing Adventist history of Ellen and James White and others who were so quick to jump on the band wagon. River | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 425 Registered: 12-2004 |
Dear friends, Although I have said goodbye a couple of weeks ago to this forum, I appreciate the opportunity to peek in on occasion. I was stuck today by a new low on this thread. I have seen Ellen White called a false prophet, a mentally ill individual, and even demon possessed. However, Steve's comparison of Ellen White to Barry Manilow takes the cake. A new low has been established. Somehow demonic doesn't sound quite so offensive anymore. Thanks Steve, Randy | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 744 Registered: 6-2006  |
Randy, I like Barry Manilow! Glad to see you pop in. You're still part of the family... Leigh Anne | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1209 Registered: 4-2000  |
River, I heartily recommend the website (www.bereanbeacon.org) that Martin Hansen listed. One can learn alot of facts on Church history on that website (even with video presentations). Also, I recently purchased an excellent book entitled, "ISLAM AND TERRORISM: What the Quoran really teaches about Christianity, violence and the goals of the Islamic jihad" by Dr. Mark A. Gabriel. Martin wisely recommended this book to me during an informal Instant Message conversation. As I started reading it, the author relates his terrible torture at the hands of the secret police in Cairo and how his academic colleagues actually spit into in face at the prestigious Al-Azhar University where he taught Islamic history. These Egyptian secret police interrogators certainly acted far less than human. The thought immediately struck me that a loving, kind, and just God would not let these criminals get by with merely the "quick-fix" of annihilationism. The author still bears the scars of his torture sessions. His own father fainted with the news that his son left the Islamic faith, and he pursued him with gunfire immediately thereafter. As the author went on to explain how Muslims have no assurance of salvation when they die and that they simply go into their graves awaiting the verdict as to what direction they will be going. It sounds so similar to SDA "soul sleep" and their "investigative judgment." Obviously, the source for these heresies have a common originator. Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on August 12, 2007) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1276 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thanks Dennis,I went there, no, there wont be no annihilationism, no quick fix. We need to know Jesus in his power and his glory. The common originator for theses heresies is the same one that lied to Eve. We have this warning Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. River | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 206 Registered: 10-2006 |
Randy, Could it be that you are easily entertained (kidding)? steve | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 539 Registered: 5-2007 |
Randy, welcome back! Gotta agree about the Barry Manilow thing. His music makes me wanna barf! It ain't what I call rock and roll! |
