| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 563 Registered: 11-2005 |
I just had an interesting thought to share with you. For some time I have tried to formulate clearly and simply what it is that is so different between Adventism and Christianity. Using the analogy of two trees rubbing branches, there are branches that occupy the same space but originate on different trunks. Many Adventists like to point to the branches, and compare similarities. In our heart we know though that Adventism is built on a different theological foundation. These are not new ideas. They are just points that stick out in my mind, that are irrefutable. 1. Adventism (works + grace = salvation) vs. Christian (grace = salvation + works). This is not just a superficial and trite formula. For the Adventist, it includes things such as the admonishment that no matter how much time I spend seeking God, I could be thinking an earthly though when my name comes up in the Investigative Judgment! For the Christian, salvation that is not deserved is assured by the Savior's blood, and works is an outpouring of gratitude prompted by the indwelling Holy Spirit. 2. An Adventist cannot, according to their prophet Ellen White, ever say that they are saved because they can never be perfect enough to say that. A Christian can say, in full confidence, that they are saved by the blood of Jesus. 3. An Adventist, who is honest with themselves, lives a life of perpetual despair, believing that they can never be good enough, while a Christian lives in eternal gratitude to Christ knowing that He has already granted them the priceless gift of salvation in spite of the fact that they are not good enough. Have you ever met a Seventh-day Adventist, who knows even a single Seventh-day Adventist, who has achieved the level of personal perfection that Ellen White says is necessary to make it through the time when she says that we will be without a Heavenly Intercessor? 4. Adventists sing, "We have this hope..." while Christians sing, "Blessed Assurance. Jesus is mine. Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine." Of course Adventists can sing it too, but they can't really in their hearts believe it, because Ellen White has told them to never say that they are saved. These four statements are actually four ways of saying the same thing. Adventist theology will never be Christian theology. It can't be, no matter how hard it might try, because at the heart of it the focus of Adventism is on "self", while the focus of Christianity is on "Jesus". That is a fact. Adventists can say "Jesus" as many times as they want in their literature and evangelistic meetings, and it still won't change their theology any more than it does the Mormons. As a former Seventh-day Adventist, I know this to be a fact. All the rest of Adventist theology vs. Christian theology is the "fruit" of the two different belief systems. That is why Seventh-day Adventism fails when it tries to apply worship methods that are successful with other Christian groups. It was not until I started fellowshipping with Christian groups that I truly experienced the power of the Holy Spirit through the group's attitude of overwhelming gratitude for God's free gift of salvation, fully paid for by Christ's blood on the Cross. It is like everyone in the congregation is on the same note in perfect harmony. It is indescribable. It brought, and continues to bring, tears of inexpressible gratitude for a salvation that I don't deserve. 1844 does indescribable injury to the validity of Christ's incomprehensible and completed sacrifice on the cross. And to think that He did it for a wretch like me! I grew up in Andrews Elementary School and Andrews Academy (at Andrews University). It was a well known fact that students at the Academy got in much more serious trouble with the law than kids that went to the downtown high school at Berrien Springs. Now I understand why. As adolescents we had despaired of ever being "good enough" to make it to heaven. It was hopeless. We were lost. Doomed. Damned to a hell that we didn't choose -- all because we simply could not be good enough, every waking moment! Oh. And I forgot. Ellen White even stated that this includes "unconscious thoughts" as well. I must be ready for the Investigative Judgment! This is an undeniable fact of Adventism. We can discuss the Seal of God, Great Controversy, State of the Dead, Sabbath, Ellen White, etc with them. That is all secondary to the underlying bedrock belief as an Adventist that I have to earn my way to heaven through my good works, rather than it being a sign of gratitude and the work of the Holy Spirit in my life because I have done one thing -- believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. I don't know how to emphasize this enough. I never truly understood this until I moved outside the Adventist cocoon and started fellowshipping with Christians. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6524 Registered: 12-2003  |
Gilbert, what you have written above is so important I don't have adequate adjectives to emphasize what you have said. Here's the key sentences: "I don't know how to emphasize this enough. I never truly understood this until I moved outside the Adventist cocoon and started fellowshipping with Christians." That is exactly my experience. We can accept Jesus and be quite overhwelmed at suddenly knowing Him, but the reality of living in Jesus and of KNOWING we are secure and experiencing the joy—none of that fully comes into focus until we place ourselves in a fellowship or true believers. Worshiping the Lord Jesus with other Christ-followers is an unbelievable experience, and the reality of the difference between what we were and what we now are does not come into focus when we stay on our own. We can't really experience and know the full reality of what it means to be part of God's household until we immerse ourselves in a body of believers and become an active worshiper with others who are also saved by grace. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4131 Registered: 3-2004  |
Gilbert and Colleen, what both of you have said is so true. As Gilbert wrote "I don't know how to emphasize this enough. I never truly understood this until I moved outside the Adventist cocoon and started fellowshipping with Christians." Then Colleen wrote "We can't really experience and know the full reality of what it means to be part of God's household until we immerse ourselves in a body of believers and become an active worshiper with others who are also saved by grace." For a while last year I thought God was prompting me to look elsewhere to worship and I started looking. What He was doing was to prompt me to get more involved with the activities of my church, where I could meet people on a one to one basis. I am satisfied I am where God wants me at this time. The joy, of worshipping with other Christians surpasses anything I experienced as an adventist. Thank you God. You are Awesome. Diana | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 964 Registered: 10-2002  |
Recently I've thought about that song, "We have this hope." It sounded like it should give us joy, like it should be our anthem, and it seems to have been created for that purpose. But you know, I could never really feel that hope as I sang it! I felt like we were supposed to have hope when we sang it, but I didn't have that hope. The Adventist "hope" and the Biblical "hope" are different. The Adventist hope is more of a toss-up in the air, "I've studied and studied, and I hope I'll be saved." But the Biblical "hope" is an anchor within the Most Holy Place, a security, a guarantee, and an earnest of our salvation. It is a hope already laid up for us in heaven. It is a hope of certainty. On top of all of this, I think those high notes in "We have this hope" kind of illustrate the problem -- I know I wasn't able to sing them! I tried, but they were too high! I bet others had that experience, too (unless you were a gifted soprano!). Just like the song's notes were too high to sing, so Adventism's "song" is too difficult to perform, and though you're singing about "hope", your very inability to actually have and feel that hope is just like your inability to sing those notes. Your inability to carry the tune is like your inability to feel you truly do have hope. It's hard to be joyful about "I hope I'll be saved." In contrast to Adventism's hope ("maybe..."), the true hope in Jesus says, "Yes! and Amen!" | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 965 Registered: 10-2002 |
P.S. Aaah, I see it now. "We have this hope" is a song that is based on "We"---that is, Adventists. It was a song based on the Adventist identity and "the Adventist hope". In other words, the foundation of the "hope" and song is "Adventism's message". It was a song hopeful about Jesus' coming according to Adventist heritage. I think we all had to convince ourselves to be "hopeful" about that! I think I wasn't well-able to convince myself. | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 153 Registered: 7-2000 |
What you said is so true, Gilbert. Your observations of Adventism vs. Christianity are all on target. I doubt you'd find any disagreement even among current Adventists. I mean those who are honest. It is fair and honest to say that very few people within Adventism, TRUELY know the Real Jesus. I know some people get rather upset when they'd read like comments. It's their perogative to entertain themselves or disagree. More and more I am less concerned about those Adventists sympathizers whose disingeniuous defenses of Adventism hurt more than help sincere, godly people within the SDA church, who are seeking and wondering after the Real Jesus. Yes Gilbert, worshiping with other believers in the body of Christ, is imperative for those such Adventists,.This brings to their soul and spirit, health and spiritual vitality they can NEVER experience within Adventism. A person, like I was within Adventism, can seem to be a very good christian outwardly, but it doesn't mean he knows the REAL Jesus or he is SAVED. If we really love our Adventist friends, we'd face the truth about Adventism and speak it at appropriate times, when God gives opportunity and utterance. | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 205 Registered: 10-2006 |
Gilbert, I am repeating a former post, but what opened my eyes was to make a "Ben Franklin" type list comparing all the things Jesus said about His kingdom and how to enter it, and what the Adventists teach. They do not teach the gospel of Jesus Christ in its purity. It is only a part of their "truth". Indeed, theirs is another gospel. steve | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 565 Registered: 11-2005 |
Agapetos, that is so perceptive! I hadn't even thought about the "We" referring to only Adventism. Wow! Talk about reinforcing a cultic mindset. What got me started on this thread was my reflecting on my past spiritual journey. For the last 30 years I have felt like there were some "dead mice" in the attic of Adventism. Things just didn't "smell" right. The story of Jacob's wrestling with the angel in Spiritual Gifts disagrees with the same story in Patriarchs and Prophets. If jewelry is so bad, howcome the kings in the Bible story books have on so much? Some of the dietary advice of Ellen White is really goofy. And there were other numerous inconsistencies. About 10 years ago I became so frustrated with the total disconnect within the children's and youth divisions. The official papers from the General Conference are often cartoonish garbage. The stories are no better. Many people switch the "Young Disciple Magazine". At least it has some "meat". Both my wife and I were so disgusted we were looking for other "genuine" Adventist alternatives. I was seriously scouting out sites such as http://homechurch.org/. In some cases we would just skip Seventh-day Adventist church altogether. Something was definitely missing though! It wasn't until I decided to take the giant leap and start actually fellowshiping with other Christian groups that I realized what I was missing. That is described above. It simply won't be found by like-minded Former Adventists banding together for fellowship. It takes active involvement in a genuine Christian fellowship. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4139 Registered: 3-2004 |
"It takes active involvement in a genuine Christian fellowship." I did not know what I needed or where I needed to worship when I left adventism. The church God told me to go to is fantastic. It is all about God. The words of the songs are all about God. The singing is wonderful and as the people volunteering at the doors are waiting for people to enter, they are singing and keeping time with the music. The smiles on their faces show that they are happy in Christ. I love it. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6534 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ramone, very good insights. That song really was an Adventist anthem. Again, Gilbert, you're right. When we were leaving, we pursued a home church with our neighbors for two years. We actually had some good experiences, but God didn't leave us there forever. He made it clear we had to attend a church where our kids had fellowship their own ages. We had no idea before actually attending a Bible-teaching church what we were missing. I believe it is a typical phenomenon for people who are leaving Adventism to go through a period of weeks to months when they sort-of "get their bearings" before trying a church. This hiatus is caused in large part by a fear of getting sucked into another deception or of being "owned" by another church. There's also the sense that if what one believed to be the true church isn't true, what else can one possibly trust? Attending a Christian church is another act of faith that we must do as part of following Jesus. His word makes it clear that there is no such thing as an isolated Christ-follower. We must be in fellowship with the body of Christ in order to experience the blessings that He gives us in our new unity with each other in the Spirit. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1277 Registered: 9-2006  |
Gilberts Quote: What got me started on this thread was my reflecting on my past spiritual journey. For the last 30 years I have felt like there were some "dead mice" in the attic of Adventism. Things just didn't "smell" right. The story of Jacob's wrestling with the angel in Spiritual Gifts disagrees with the same story in Patriarchs and Prophets. If jewelry is so bad, howcome the kings in the Bible story books have on so much? Some of the dietary advice of Ellen White is really goofy. And there were other numerous inconsistencies. You know Gilbert, many on here have said virtually the same thing, I have seen these consistencies in testimony and given it some prayerful thought, I have a hunch that at some time, maybe when you were very young even, that somewhere back there you did this simple thing, you believed God and accepted his word and he came into your heart and that’s why things didn’t “smell right”. You take a little child, he ain’t no theologian, he has simple child like faith and God knows how to keep those who are his. I have heard people say that Christ came into their heart when they were five years old and I do not doubt them. And to a saved person, even a little saved person, some of this Adventist stuff is going to stink to him, the first time I heard an Adventist I began to smell a dead rat somewhere, I couldn’t really put my finger on it or tell which way the smell was coming from, it’s like those times when you sniff and the longer you sniff it you become aware and finally you say “What is that I smell?” I think that is what happens to some of you folk, the smell is subliminal and you put up with it for awhile, then you become aware of the smell and you open a window, finally you start gagging and you just begin opening windows and flinging open doors. Peeeuuuw!! And even that’s not enough and you say “I gotta get outa here!!” So you run outa there gulping for fresh air and its coming from ever direction and you end up saying “it’ll do just as long as it don’t stink like that!!” You ever been in a car with several people and the windows rolled up and somebody does “you no what” and windows begin to go down and heads hanging out of every window!! Argg, and the guy sitting in the middle is doomed cause he ain’t go no window to hang his head out of. Like Honestwitness, she’s stuck in the middle so she has to put up with the smell, fortunately her car stops so she run’s over to some church to get a breath of fresh air, takes a deep breathe and dives back into the car cause her place is in the middle! And to them Adventist, that dead rat smell is music to their noses and they just go right on enjoying the stink. In fact they like to put off a stink themselves. There was a little boy who observed his grand father asleep in his rocking chair, the boy decide to smear limburger cheese in the old mans mustache, after awhile the old fellow wakes up and exclaims “This room stinks!” walks in the kitchen and says “the kitchen even stinks!” walks out on the front porch and yells “The whole world stinks”. Adventism is like limburger cheese and if you got any left in your mustache you got to get it all out. Now all that didn’t come to me through prayer, the Lord just hasn’t seen fit to get rid of my sense of humor yet. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6539 Registered: 12-2003 |
Love your sense of humor, River! What a vivid metaphor—it does "ring true"! Colleen (Message edited by Colleentinker on August 13, 2007) | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 573 Registered: 11-2005 |
River, That is a wonderful illustration! | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 108 Registered: 4-2007 |
"For the last 30 years I have felt like there were some "dead mice" in the attic of Adventism." Pretty much the same time span for me as well. My problem was I kept thinking the dead mouse was a local problem. I'd try a different SDA Church and for a while the new church smell covered up the dead mouse but eventually that familiar stink came back. It was just recently that I realized it wasn't a bunch of dead mice but one large dead rat that was smelling up the entire denomination. Once I examined the rat I knew why it smelled so bad. Alas, I'm still in the smelly room but use a Gospel scented deodorizer to counteract it. JONVIL | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 134 Registered: 7-2007 |
River, I like your sense of humor  While I was an Adventist, I didn't smell the dead rat/mice at all. It's only in looking at it from the freedom in Christ that I have NOW, that I can both see and smell the dead creatures! In fact, while I was an Adventist, I believed in salvation by grace through faith. Dispite that, I didn't have the assurance of salvation. In church, I'd sing: "Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine. Oh, what a foretaste of glory devine!" As I sang, I'd think, "oh I HOPE I'll be saved!" and "if only I HAD that assurance of salvation!" Now I can see that that "foretaste" is the Holy Spirit Who "bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." Romans 8:16 It came as a total surprise to me to find out that the Adventist church is wrong. That's why my username is asurprise! Now looking back, I can see that I didn't have the Holy Spirit dwelling in me at all. I was just a dead Adventist, hoping that I would be saved. Dianne | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 70 Registered: 6-2007 |
Ramone - You are so right about that song. I have been laughing and laughing about what you said about the high notes. I always hated that song. I was the only piano player for a long time in our church and whenever that song came up I just cringed and hated playing it. Laurie | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 297 Registered: 7-2005  |
River, you've got me rolling on the floor laughing at your metaphor of me in the middle seat in the car with the windows rolled up! So very true! I had to get out of the car for two years just to get all the limberger cheese out of my mustache. Now that my mustache is clean, I only smell the stink when I'm in the car. But you're right, I never stay in the car long enough to doze off and risk getting the limberger cheese smeared in my mustache again. I'm just a passenger, not a licensed driver, and I can get out any time I want. But God has told me to ride a bit with my husband now and then, just so the other riders will be subjected to someone who keeps asking, "What's that I smell?" Honestwitness | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1281 Registered: 9-2006 |
Honestwitness, Sometimes the Lord carries us to where we don't necessarily want to go and I believe, in his own good time he will carry you out of that situation. The lord told Peter that in his youth he had gone where he wanted to go, but in his older years he would carry him where he did not want to go. He prayed for Peter that his faith fail not and he has prayed for us that our faith fail not. The Lord sees things we cannot possibly see and he uses everything and waste nothing. I know you know these things, but I just feel like giving you a word of encouragement today. I feel really under the anointing of the Holy Spirit concerning you and yours this morning as I write this, God has a plan, be encouraged, be strengthened this morning I pray. I know in my spirit that God has his hand on your life. River |
