| Author |
Message |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 190
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 1:59 pm: |     |
MarysRoses,
I enjoyed your posting. What a breath of fresh air. You get it and obviously, been there done that. It appears that you have also drilled down to base parameters, settling issues in your mind.
Are you Catholic? (If I may ask)
Jim
(Message edited by jim02 on August 15, 2007) |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2041
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 2:41 pm: | |
The term "inerrant" when used by Christians to refer to Scripture, usually refers to the original manuscripts--not to our modern translations.
Jeremy |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6560
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 4:09 pm: | |
The way I understand inerrancy is this: First, as Jeremy says, it does not refer to translations but to original languages. Second, as to the human element, I see it as a "hypostatic union", if you will, between God the Holy Spirit and human writers.
In a way, we can understand the human element in Scripture by looking at the human of Jesus. His incarnation is a mystery, an indisoluable union of human and God—a "hypostatic union". It is scientifically not replicable. It is a singularity.
God's inspiration of Scripture using human amanuenses is the same sort of thing. As Wayne Grudem points out in his Systematic Theology, the books bear the distinct marks of their personal education, personalities, and research/writing styles. But the contents of their writing can all be attirbuted to God's inspiration. He didn't, as Adventists were taught, leave His communication up to the writers to "figure out as best they could" and record it with errors, etc. He protected His word. To try to explain it is as impossible and eviscerating as it is to explain the incarnation.
I strongly recommend Part I of Grudem's Systematic Theology or its condensed version, Bible Doctrine pub. Zondervan. The section is entitled "the Doctrine of the Word of God" and the two chapters are called: "The Authority and Inerrancy of the Bible" and "The Clarity, Necessity, and Sufficiency of the Bible".
There are two levels at which we can study the inerrancy of the Bible—and I don't mean the specific choice of details such as English pronouns or punctuation. The first is the internal witness of the Bible itself, founded on the belief that God is the foundational authority in all reality and is behind the giving of His word.
The second is experiential. I believed for over 40 years that there were minor errors or cultural nuances in the Bible that we overlook as we seek the "big picture". What I have found in the past several years, though, is that when I decided to take the Bible "at its word", two things happened. One was that I became conscious of difficult passages. Instead of zoning out and ignoring passages that didn't make sense or that seemed largely "cultural", I actually had to contend with them. I had to inductively look at related passages throughout the Bible and see how they were similar, different, and enlightening.
Second, as I have contended more and more minutely with the words of texts, praying to know the truth and asking God to teach me what He wants me to know and to reveal reality, the passages of Scripture are making sense to me in ways they have never made sense before. In general, I use only the study notes of the NIV Study Bible for interpretive "help" because they give linguistic and cultural details that might not be evident in the text itself. They do not tell what the text means, but they do give contextual background information in cetain places.
My conclusion is that the more seriously I've taken the words of Scripture, the more cohesive the Bible is and the more consistent is the revelation of salvation, the Trinity, the substitutionary atonement, the nature of man, the meaning of the church, the deity of Christ, etc. God literally communicates to us through His word by His Spirit when we submit our hearts and lives to knowing Him as we study.
No passage of the Bible will mean something wildly different to us than it meant to its first readers. We may apply those thruths in differing specific ways, but passages retain their contextual meanings. And they derive their full meanings from the context of the entire Bible. That is why inductive Bible study is so important. We can't possibly think that we can open the Bible, point to a passage, read it, and with no further understanding, apply it to ourselves. It has to be understood contextually as it would have been understood by the first recipients before we can make sense out of it.
God is magnificently consistent. His revelation of love, judgment, mercy, discipline, grace, faithfulness, omniscience, holiness, glory...etc....are consistent throughout the entire Bible.
But unless we first approach the book considering that everything we read must be taken seriously, not dismissed by assuming it was a cultural or limited message, we will miss the significance of it. When I stopped assuming Paul's descriptions of Jesus, of the atonement, of the church, etc. were merely metaphors and instead began to understand they were "real", it was amazing what began to become clear!
Just as in accepting Jesus, faith and trust in God's faithfulness and promises are essential in order to begin to experience the Bible as a limitless window into reality.
Colleen |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 268
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 4:43 pm: | |
One interesting thing about the Bible and trying to understand the culture it was written in and for; the writers of the Bible were eastern. Just the fact that the Bible originates from the east makes certain parts of it come alive when you are exposed to the culture of the east. I have found that I notice little things in the Bible that I missed before, simply as a result of spending time with Eastern Christians.
If there's "Baptist Greek" I wonder if there is "Greek Greek". At the Greek Orthodox church I visited several times, the New Testament was read in church first in the ancient Greek and then in English.
Jeremiah |
Marysroses
Registered user
Username: Marysroses
Post Number: 121
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 6:41 pm: | |
Hi,
Jim, yes, I'm Catholic. Raised Baptist but went to Catholic gradeschool. Became Adventist along with my family in High School. Adventism unraveled after becoming frustrated at the lack of transparency and answers while attending the Adventist College. After a year of intensive study, I was confirmed Catholic.
I understand what some of you are saying about original manuscripts. However, not one original manuscript survives, as defined as a copy by the author's hand. We have copies of copies. They are not all in agreement as to what exactly, the original words were. Very good, there isn't a lot that can't be reliably worked out, but enough discrepancies that word for word inerrancy still doesn't seem reasonable. Its not that there are huge problems. Just enough I'm not willing to say innerant. There is also the problem that the Bible is not self defining. It contains no inspired list of what should be the contents, or which variation in text should be given the greatest weight. Isaiah is often given as an example of the accuracy of some of the dead sea scrolls. 99% plus accurate. You don't often see mentioned, that many other books, have as much as 20% discrepancy from manuscripts known from before the Qumuran discovery. As those texts predate the ones we knew by hundreds of years, the problem is obvious. Yet none of this affects the basic, core beliefs of Christianity. The bible is very reliable on the 'big' picture. Jesus is God, he died for us, there is One God in three persons, etc.
Most of the problems I see are in interpretation, not in arriving at the original words anyway. I have no doubt my views are not those of the great majority of people in this forum. Many would say my faith is not 'biblical'.
My perspective, is that people's *interpretation* of scripture, is at odds with my faith, not scripture itself. I can give a reasonable, scriptural answer for all of my beliefs. For me, thats enough. That others choose to disagree I understand. Really! This isn't about trying to convince people to come around to my perspective, but just realize there is another perspective.
As far as Greek Greek, Jeremiah, yes, I think there is such a thing. I LOVE the Byzantine liturgy for that reason, it is in greek. While most Catholics are Latin rite, we do have several eastern rites that are in union with Rome. There is a Byzantine rite Catholic Church that I love to attend when I am on the road. I believe their liturgy is based on that of John Chrysostom.
God bless everyone here. I may not be as bubbly as some, but my life has shown me that indeed, Jesus is AWESOME!
MarysRoses |
Marysroses
Registered user
Username: Marysroses
Post Number: 124
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 11:58 pm: | |
It has been a busy and upsetting evening. I rushed off without a chance to really consider and flesh out my above post.
I was not ignoring what you thoughtfully wrote Colleen. You have a lot of excellent points I would agree with. I never intended to say that the bible is unreliable, or that we can ignore uncomfortable texts. I simply do not see word for word inerrancy, even in the originals, as we don't have the originals themselves, just copies of copies.
We all have to trust something, and I do not think trust in the bible is missplaced. As we study, we rely on many people though, to give us understanding and context for what we read. Most people find certain translations, and reference materials they are comfortable with, usually falling within a broad category of denominational identity or theological school. I find that influences the conclusions people will come to. Thats not a bad thing, becuase we all have them. I am influenced by what I learned in Catholic school. My positive experience there made me willing to listen and study.
Jesus has to be our central focus, I agree. We cannot buy or bargain for, or earn our salvation. I think trust and effort are rewarded though, in the quest for truth, and God himself will lead us to where we need to be and what we need to understand. So as I said, I do not discount the Holy Spirit. Many of us are so wounded in many different ways by our experiences in this sinful world, I personally do not think there is a one-size-fits-all answer (other than Jesus) to finding our way spiritually.
For myself, I simply do not see enough consistency among those who rely on the bible only without any guiding authority, to follow that for myself. I am speaking of my needs, not what others should do. Following my own understanding gets me in trouble. I find I need the discipline on my intellect that submitting to the teaching authority of the Church gives me. On my own, I'm always up for a good reasoned argument to change my opinion. Thats fine for study and intellectual growth, bad for spiritual development, imho. I need the discipline of submitting to proper authority, and the stability of a consistent faith community, wherever i find myself geographically. I do not find it unreasonable that God provides those things. I find freedom in the discipline. Its humbling to say I don't know all the answers. Its rewarding on some issues (eternal hell for one) I have struggled with to find myself finally coming into better understanding of Church teaching and realizing I didn't know better after all. God rewards our faith in Him. If I hadn't submitted on those teachings I struggled with, I might never have come to understand them and continued to go my own way. LIke i said, that way gets me in trouble. 
God Bless,
MarysRoses |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 975
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 12:31 am: | |
A bit off subject (or "on"), but for Jim on the note of the Trinity --
Ask God to show Himself as the Trinity to you. It is kind of like 1+1+1=1, but none of us can accept that math, you know? The only thing that makes us able to accept it is really having God show us that that's the way He is.
Bless you in Him, bro.
Ramone |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 191
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 11:55 am: | |
I have touched upon many hard to know subjects.
The pattern I see is ; you can only get so far and then you have to accept that you will never know some things this side of eternity.
I can't explain it all. I can gather the data topically, get side tracked into endless debates arguing over the meanings of the fragments.
I do think one can easily get different understandings and even call them selves experts with fancy certificates on the wall. So I know , intellect, titles and education do not insure verifiable interpretation.
To say God's Holy Spirit shall guide and interpret is a fine and worthy saying. But even this does not insure mistakes wil not be made since every Christian denomination thinks they are correct and have The Holy Spirit's guidance.
It comes to this. We do our best, maintain balance and common sense and avoid extremes.
If God is indeed a God of Love. Then balance in all things is a must. I am not suggesting excuses or license, I am suggesting peace of mind. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6568
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 6:33 pm: | |
Jim, I do think you're right that one can't become embroiled in theological debate. God is faithful to teach us truth on a continuing basis as we grow in Him.
In his sermon dated November 3, 2002, on Romans 9:1-5, John Piper tells how he moved from teaching to pastoring. He had taken a sabbatical to study Romans 9 and write a definitive treatise. He says:
"As I studied Romans 9 day after day, I began to see a God so majestic and so free and so absolutely sovereiegn that my analysis merged into worship and the Lord said, in effect, 'I will not simply be analyzed, I will be adored. I will not simply be pondered, I will be proclaimed. My sovereignty is not simply to be scrutinized, it is to be hearalded. It is not grist for the mill of controversy, it is gospel for sinners who know that their only hope is the sovereign triumph of God's grace over their rebellious will'."
Jim, God is not asking you to understand. He is asking you to worship Him, to honor Him, to follow Him. He will teach you. It will be slow, but it will be certain. We can't analyze God or His will. We know Him by honoring Him, and He reveals Himself as we humble ourselves before Him and surrender our "right" to understand definitively.
Oddly, our understanding becomes increasingly clear and revelatory. Our older son (admittedly a nerd--his passion is computer programming) summed up this reality one day a couple years ago when he said, "My thinking used to be muddled. When I was born again, my thinking cleared up." From my perspective as his mom, I agree—his thinking had been muddled and a bit disconnected. His ability to discern and know reality has completely changed his ability to know and understand the signficance of spiritual things. He does, indeed, "have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor 2:16).
So yes, over-analyzing theology is not the way to know truth. Worshiping and asking the Lord Jesus to reveal Himself as you read His word is what actually yields truth!
Colleen |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 979
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 1:52 am: | |
Amen! |
Marysroses
Registered user
Username: Marysroses
Post Number: 125
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 7:32 pm: | |
Sounds good to me |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 611
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 10:36 am: | |
Colleen, we were taught that "nerd" stands for "Network Emergency Repair Dude" -- a very handy person to have around! <grin>
Gilbert Jorgensen |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6587
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 8:12 pm: | |
Actually, that would be Roy! Equipped as he is with his brand-new B.S. in computer science, he is a most handy person to have around! Richard frequently calls him for a consult when he's venturing into new website programming "territory".
But Gilbert, you would also qualify as a "nerd" too, wouldn't you? Or maybe networks aren't your specific thing...!
Colleen |
Dane
Registered user
Username: Dane
Post Number: 140
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 1:41 pm: | |
Wow! I can identify with so much on this thread. But my bottom line is this. After years of study, analysis, "prideful" logical reasoning, etc., I have to conclude" that God is God and I am not. His ways are infinitely above me. I rejoice in His sovereignty and majesty. I rejoice with my brothers and sisters, be they Baptist, Methodist, Pentacostal, Catholic or Orthodox. We can worship His Majesty as one body. We may have different understandings and I think none of us have the whole picture. However, I have come to recognize that all of us can collectively gather around the cross and rest in His grace.
Dane |
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