| Author | Message | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2007 |
What frustration it is on Forums with SDAs. I was on a yahoo group forum and the discussion was the Mark of the Beast. They just won't look at what the scripture says when you present it. they just don't want to let go of the Sabbath. One person even said "We really need the Sabbath in this day of age". I was saddened because the answer should have been " We really need Jesus in this day of age". I was pollite the whole time and did not insult anyone at all. Finally the Moderator decided to close the topic after I posted a ton of scripture showing what the Seal of God is for NT Christians, and What the true Saints who keep the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ is. Seems like they are just as guilty of getting angry when they are backed into a corner as they always claimed other Christians do. Wow I am so ever thankful to God for taking me out of that darkness. I'm just sad now because now I know what I'm up against in my family. | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 516 Registered: 5-2007 |
With Adventists it's always about the Sabbath. You should go on CARM and see what the Adventists post there, Pnoga. No matter what the original post on a thread is, it always somehow winds up being about the Sabbath. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 529 Registered: 11-2005 |
Pnoga, I would have to agree with their statement, "We really need the Sabbath in this day of age." The problem is that they stop short. They don't get any further with the Sabbath than the weekly 7th-day Sabbath that was a shadow of the true Sabbath Rest described in Hebrews 3 and 4. Ask your friends how it could be that the Children of Israel kept the 7th-day "shadow" Sabbath under pain of death, and yet in Hebrews 3 and 4 it says that they failed to enter into the true Sabbath Rest that is found in Christ?
Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 534 Registered: 11-2005 |
As I was reading this morning, I came across this verse that I had not been aware of: The logical inference from this verse is that if the Children of Israel had known about the Sabbath before the time decribed by this verse, God would not have had to make it known to them. Perhaps one of our Adventist friends could show us a verse anywhere in God's Word that definitively states that God made known His holy Sabbath before that time. God resting on the 7th-day of creation, and making it holy, doesn't say that it was given as a command to anyone else. And perhaps our Adventist friends could tell us what God did on the eighth day -- continue to rest, or go back to work? What was it that God was resting from? And what work were Adam and Eve doing at that time, that they would have needed to rest from? Didn't God come and visit with them each day? Another thing I find interesting is that Seventh-day Adventism gives a lot more "air play" to Exodus 20:8-11 than to Deuteronomy 5:12-15. I wonder what they would give as a reason why they avoid using the later reference...
Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 519 Registered: 5-2007 |
Gilbert, Adventists believe what they believe about the Sabbath because Ellen White said so! | ||
| Emr Registered user Username: Emr Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2007 |
Gilbert, I might be rebuked for bringing this up, but there's a little problem with using Neh. 9:13f as an indication that the Sabbath first became known at Sinai, because, if that's what the passage teaches, it then teaches too much. Why do I say this? Even if Nehemiah sort of singles out the Sabbath, it is only one of those 'true laws' given to God's children through Moses. Now, the problem is that we know that several of the laws included in the Mosaic legislation were common knowledge centuries before Moses was born. For instance, it is obvious that murder was frowned upon long before the days of Moses or Abraham. You might say the commandment against murder is somehow more 'universal' than the Sabbath command. Fair enough. The problem is, there are things in the Bible many people today would strongly hesitate to call 'universal,' things that sound distinctly Jewish or at least circumscribed to a certain long-gone milieu, which were incorporated into the Mosaic code of law, no doubt a part of those 'true laws' given to Moses, but which we know with absolute certainty were already in existence and widely known centuries before Moses. The Levirate law is an excellent example that comes to mind. Simply remember the episode involving Judah's sons and daughter-in-law. If the Levirate law could be a part of the revelation given to Moses and the Israelites but predating it at the same time, so could the Sabbath or almost any other legislation given in the Pentateuch. Eduardo | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 122 Registered: 7-2007 |
Actually, Gilbert; the children of Israel DID learn about the Sabbath before it was given to them at Mount Sinai. They learned about it when God gave it to them for the first time, when He gave them the manna in the wilderness. (See Exodus 16:23-29) Exodus 16:29 says: "See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath..."  Dianne | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4111 Registered: 3-2004  |
We know from the Bible there was some kind of law given to humans. Cain was punished when he killed Abel. Jacob deceived his father by pretending to be his brother. It is obvious God had laws about how to treat each other. But there was no Sabbath command nor was it understood by the people between creation and Mt Sinai when God told the Israelites it was given to them as a reminder that He took them out of Egypt. Diana | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 123 Registered: 7-2007 |
Well, Emr; while it says in Genesis 2:2,3 that God rested and blessed the seventh day, it's not commanded there as a Sabbath for any person to KEEP. It's not even called a Sabbath there in those verses. The first time it's commanded is in Exodus 16, when it's given to Israel. (Exodus 16:1 says that was in 15th day of the second month after they'd departed from the land of Egypt.) They arrived at Mount Sinai in the third month (Exodus 19:1). The law wasn't even given to the Gentiles - just to Israel. Romans 2:14 says: "for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves." Dianne | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 536 Registered: 11-2005 |
Eduardo and Dianne, You are both right! I hadn't thought of that. So at what point did they learn about the "Sabbath" as we know it? I looked up http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H07676&Version=KJV. The first reference to "shabbath" is found in the verses Dianne brought to my attention. From the link above it, appears that "shabbath" is derived from "shabath" which is explained in more detail at http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H7673&version=KJV. The first verses listed are Genesis 2:2-3. There it would appear that the root meaning is to "cease" or "rest". Where do you think the concept of the Sabbath (whatever that means) came from? Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 124 Registered: 7-2007 |
Well, I believe that when God finished creating, He finished creating. He rested the seventh - and onward. The Bible didn't say He started creating again on the eight day. He was done, so He rested. (It doesn't even say that the "evening and the morning" was the seventh day.) I believe that Israel was given the Sabbath as a symbol of the Rest we have in Christ today. Hebrews 4:5-8 says that Israel did NOT enter God's rest. They certainly kept the Sabbath though - there was the death penalty otherwise! (A lot of the laws, such as the one for not eating "unclean" meats, were symbolic.) Dianne | ||
| Emr Registered user Username: Emr Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2007 |
Just as I suspected, some mild form of rebuke is already on the way, but it's well taken. Excuse me, Diana, but how exactly do you know that NO Sabbath command was in existence before Moses? It seems to me it is exactly the same way Adventists 'know' that ONLY vegetables were lawful as food before the flood, i.e., from negative evidence. There is so much silence as to what and when God indicated could be eaten and drunk! For starters, no indication is given anywhere that water was included in man's diet, but, of course, it MUST have been. As far as I know, no explicit authorisation was ever given to eat honey, a product that contains saliva of unedible insects, and we know saintly men ate the stuff. It's delicious and nourishing. As for the intent of Genesis 2:2, 3, I'd like to point out a couple of rather objective things that are seldom considered when dealing with the issue of the pre-Mosaic origin of the Sabbath: 1. If the Sabbath had been some kind of exclusively Jewish invention, what would the reason be for the existence of the week well before Moses? For we know for certain that Rachel and Lea's family, in Syria, were familiar with the notion of a week shortly after the days of Abraham. 2. Jesus taught that the Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around (Mark 2:27f). Now, the point is, WHEN was the Sabbath made for man? Was the Sabbath made for 'man' at Sinai, or shortly before, or was it actually made for man in Eden? Did Jesus actually mean 'the Sabbath was made for the Jew, not the Jew for the Sabbath'? Similarly, when the Pentateuch and our Lord himself speak of matrimony and say that a man will leave his father and mother and become one flesh with his wife, should also anthropos be localised tol 'Jew'? It seems to me that anthropos is quite universal, and there doesn't seem to be anything Sinaitic about it. Naturally, I don't advocate the Adventist idea that the Sabbath is/will be the seal of God, or that Sunday is/will be the mark of the beast, or that keeping this commandment, or any other, will make anyone more 'acceptable' to God. Luckily for us, God's love and salvation are not contingent on such things. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 538 Registered: 11-2005 |
Eduardo -- you provide interesting "food for thought." Regarding #1, I don't see where the Sabbath as a "special day", and the concept of a weekly cycle have to be connected. There are many cycles. Let's look at the lunar cycle, since that was commonly used and understood. To my knowledge there was not a "special day" that was intrinsically connected with each lunar cycle. There are also documented examples of "weekly" cycles in some cultures consisting of other than seven days in each cycle. So it would seem to me like a "connection" would have to be "assumed". Regarding #2, if we are referring to the Seventh-day Sabbath as given in Exodus and Deuteronomy, I am not able to find any scriptural support indicating that it was observed before the gathering of manna began. Also, how would Sabbath be defined. Thinking out loud, I wonder if Adam and Eve enjoyed God's Sabbath Rest (minus the salvational aspect) prior to their sinning? That then begs the question, "Is Heaven the ultimate Sabbath Rest?" In that sense the Sabbath would truly have been made for man, and anything other than the ultimate Sabbath Rest described in Hebrews 3-4 would be "shadow" Sabbaths -- which would not have made any sense until after adam and Eve sinned. Another contemporary item that I run into is the question about Chinese ideograms, or word pictures. We have a couple books, I believe written by Adventist missionaries, that propose to show how the 7th-day Sabbath was "written into" the very early Chinese writing. another example of "large boat" showing eight mouths with a roof, etc, is well known. To a Sabatarian this would be additional confirmation. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4112 Registered: 3-2004 |
Emr, There is nothing in the Bible, between creation and Mt Sinai, that gives any command to keep the 7th day as the sabbath. I am not going to assume anything. God created the world in 6 days and rested the 7th. In Genesis you will see that when God created each day He said.."and there was evening and there was morning" at the end of each day. He did not say that at the end of the 7th day. He did not began creating again and rest the second 7th day and repeat that again and again. It was a one time occurrence. I am not going to judge/criticize anyone that choses to keep the 7th day sabbath as long as they do not tell me I will be sent to hell or be lost if I do not. At Mt Sinai, Moses was talking to the Israelites when God gave him all the laws/regulations for the temple and the 10 C. Deut 5:15 reads, "Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day." Neither any of my ancestors nor I were there when Moses said that. Like I said above, if a person wants to worship on Saturday, I have no problem with that. Just do not tell me I am wrong if I do not. As for the week of 7 days being known, I have seen a chart of many ancient civilations that knew about the 7 day cycle and had a name for the 7th day. It translated to sabbath. But is is only a word that gives a name to a day. It is not a command. Just my opinion. Diana | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 126 Registered: 7-2007 |
Emr; a better question would be: "is the Sabbath required for us today?" Now as to matrimony; see Genesis 2:22 where it says: "Then the rib wich the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and HE BROUGHT HER TO THE MAN." Since God brought her to Adam, I think that more than qualifies as marriage. God would be presiding over that marriage and He'd be the audience as well. No witness or Justice of the peace would be needed there! Yes, the Bible doesn't say anything about the Sabbath being required for anyone before Exodus 16, but the Bible has in it, ALL the instruction we need. The new covenant (New Testament) is what we should examine. The apostle Paul was very familier with the Old Testament - hadn't he been a Pharisee? When he wrote to the Colossians, in Colossians 2:14-17 and he wrote in verses 16,17: "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ," he was simply naming off all the holy days, the way they had been written in the Old Testament, over and over again. For example 2 Chronicles 8:13 "...for the Sabbaths, the New Moons, and the three appointed yearly feasts..." and Ezekiel 45:17 "...at the feasts, the New Moons, the Sabbaths..." Anyway, those are a couple examples. Those verses in Colossians make it clear that the Sabbath was simply a shadow of Christ. Adventists will often try to explain it away by saying that the word "sabbaths" simply mean the various holy feasts. No, in my reference Bible that I have here, the word "festival" has a little number beside it referring me to the center column. There it says: "feast day." So the only days left that the word "sabbaths" could mean; are the seventh-day Sabbaths. And before someone points out that in my New King James Version that I'm using, that the word "sabbaths" isn't capitalized; I'd like to point out that "new moon" isn't either. Both are capitalized in the two references I wrote down from the Old Testament and neither is capitalized here in Colossians. (Both ARE capitalized though in my NIV version - it says: "...or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.") Dianne | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4114 Registered: 3-2004 |
Dianne, I like the way you put the subject: A better questions would be: "is the sabbath required for us today?" I could not remember the verses in Col where it says "let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ." Thanks Diana | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 129 Registered: 7-2007 |
You're welcome Diana Dianne | ||
| Emr Registered user Username: Emr Post Number: 15 Registered: 7-2007 |
There are two Hebrew words for 'week.' The one used in Gen. 29:27f is shabua`, a word meaning a sevenfold period, usually seven days, a heptad, a week. The second, interchangable, word for week, which even survived translation into Greek, was shabbat, the usual word for Sabbath. Actually, the NT calls the day of our Lord's resurrection, the first day of the week, the 'first of the Sabbaths' (mia sabbáton), sabbáton being a plural genitive referring to the seven days of the week. Naturally, mia sabbáton means the first of the days of the week, that is, Sunday. So, Gilbert, there's a distinct biblical connection between the week and the Sabbath. What I was saying in my point #1 above was that if the Sabbath first became known in Moses' days, there would be no biblical accounting for the attested existence of the week several centuries before. Naturally, as you say, we could try and ascertain the practice of time cycles among the various peoples of the Ancient Near East, such as the Assyrians, but, as far as I know, no satisfactory link to a constant seven-day cycle has been found outside the Bible. Lunar cycles are an unlikely origin for the week, since the second new moon after any proposed origin would already be out of synch with the seven-day cycle. Similarly, appeal to seven planetary and/or stellar deities should have no place in biblical theological dialogue. As for your observation, Diana, that '[t]here's nothing in the Bible, between creation and Mt Sinai, that gives any command to keep the 7th day as the sabbath,' you are absolutely correct. Just as correct as my parallel observation that there's nothing in the Bible, between creation and Mt Sinai, that forbids taking God's name in vain. The problem, of course, lies in the assumptions we make, as in those we don't make. I haven't told you or anyone you should keep the Sabbath, Diana. I've merely presented objective, relevant Bible evidence about something that Gilbert presented. If you feel I've made any unwarranted statements, just say where and I'll try to accommodate your view. Dianne, your observation about the word 'man' in the institution of marriage is correct. 'Man' means human being, of whatever civilisation or age. Now, my second original point was, when Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, did he have in mind a more limited scope for the word 'man' than when he repeated that man would leave his father and mother and be united with his wife (Matt. 19:5; Mark 10:7)? Nothing in the context seems to favour the idea that he meant 'the Sabbath was made for the Jew.' It seems to me that the biblical background for his statement is not Exodus 16 or 20 or Deuteronomy 5, but rather Genesis 2. Contrary to Adventist claims, Paul's famous statement in Col. 2:14ff, does speak of the weekly Sabbath, as recognised even by Dr Bacchiocchi, an SDA author who went as far as accepting the Sabbath, along other festivals, was a shadow of Christ. Now, from that and several other passages in the Pauline epistles, many Christians have come to the conclusion that Paul was sort of advocating a general overthrow of Jewish festivals (including the weekly day of worship). I respect such an opinion, but I personally find it is hard to entertain seriously, considering he was ultimately arrested while he himself was attending the religious celebrations he purportedly was subverting! As far as I can tell, whenever the Bible speaks about the yearly feasts, the monthly New Moons and the weekly Sabbath as a unit (and you've mentioned a couple of such OT references yourself), it explicitly speaks about the ritual sacrifices offered on those occasions, not about the festivals themselves. And the context of Colossians 2 and other similar Pauline injunctions decidedly speak of food in connection with those days. Because of this circumstance, it seems to me that the relevant passages may not have been interpreted in the best possible way by otherwise perfectly respectful commentators. I've seen a number of threads that deal with the Sabbath on these forums for several months. All the people advocating the various views seem perfectly respectable to me, but I must confess that I've been surprised by some of the views. For instance, someone pointed out that a non-Jew couldn't possibly keep the Sabbath unless he was circumcised! Naturally, that would leave women off the hook, but, even for males, that is simply not so. It is absolutely correct that if a foreigner wanted to observe the Passover (the Jewish Passover, John 11:55), he had to be circumcised (Exo. 12:48), but no such provision is found in the Bible for foreigners in the case of the Sabbath. Quite the opposite is true (Exo. 20:10; Isa. 56:6). My personal perception is that the best way to proceed in these issues is to abide as close as possible to Bible evidence itself, leaving aside fanciful theories, and, very especially, forgetting about Adventist theories. All the best. Eduardo | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4115 Registered: 3-2004 |
Eduardo, It seems you took it to mean that you were telling me I should keep the sabbath. I in now way meant that. So sorry for the misunderstanding. It sounds like you are a scholar with knowledge of some of the Biblcal languages. Myself, I did not begin to study the Bible until I left adventism. I know nothing about Biblical languages. I do ask God to teach me when I read and study the Bible. Because of what He has taught me I am in the process of forgetting adventist theories. God bless you in your journey with Jesus. Diana | ||
| Emr Registered user Username: Emr Post Number: 16 Registered: 7-2007 |
No problem, Diana, and thank you. Jesus is wonderful. So is the Bible, even if we can only read it in English or some other modern language. We don't have to learn Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic to understand God's love and his infinite gift of Jesus. That's what makes all the difference. Because of my SDA-acquired theological training, I usually resort to the original texts. My SDA professors taught me good methodology, but I've had to learn how to discard unwarranted, EGB-based theories and heresies. Sometimes I worry how much SDA nonsense still lives on my mind. Take care. Eduardo |
