| Author | Message | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 121 Registered: 7-2007 |
Years ago (while I was still an Adventist), I went to an SDA camp meeting where the main speaker was talking about the difference between a "religion," and a "relationship" with God; the difference between "a friend" of God and "afraid" of God. He finished the series of talks by saying that it was all the difference in the world - though there were only a couple of letters between "a friend" and "afraid," it was the difference between "life" and "death." It was a good series of evening meetings, he gave; but as I look back on it, there was something missing in his talks. The missing "something" was the Holy Spirit. Ellen White substituted the Sabbath in place of the Holy Spirit, as I see it. She says that the seal of God is the Sabbath and that no one should say or feel that they are saved, but the Bible says the Seal of God is the Holy Spirit and that He is the guarantee of our salvation. Let me quote the verses. Ephesians 1:13,14 says: "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in Whom also, having believed, you were SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT of promise, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." Also, Romans 8:9 says that "if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." Does anybody else have a thought about this? Dianne | ||
| Jamundson Registered user Username: Jamundson Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2007 |
Dianne I think that is an excellent observation. Can I have permission to copy your statement. I will use it in my debate with the FIL Jay | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 125 Registered: 7-2007 |
Yes, of course you may copy my statement.  Dianne | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 537 Registered: 11-2005 |
Dianne, This seems to me like it should be one of the key points to pin Seventh-day adventists down on. They just have no Biblical support at all. To top it off, Ellen White states that the Seal of God is the Seventh-day Sabbath. See numerous references at http://www.andrews.edu/~damsteeg/seal.html At one of the last SDA church services I attended, the pastor prayed that God would "send the Holy Spirit". I though, "How interesting!" As New Covenant Christians, our bodies are each living temples where the Holy Spirit dwells, and the pastor is astute enough to observe that many of the Seventh-day Adventist congregation have empty temples! How sad! While I have not taken time to study it, I am of the distinct impression that what we were taught about the Early and Latter Rain is also unbiblical. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jamundson Registered user Username: Jamundson Post Number: 32 Registered: 7-2007 |
Dianne, Can I get your email address thru Collen? I would like to communicate directly with you regarding the FIL debate Jay | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 127 Registered: 7-2007 |
Yes, Colleen would have my email address, I believe. Dianne | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 128 Registered: 7-2007 |
Gilbert, I too, remember SDA preachers praying for the Holy Spirit and being taught that in the "latter rain" the Holy Spirit would be poured out on God's people (probably Adventists) in the "last days" so they could spread the gospel in power. I remember singing "There shall be showers of blessing" believing that meant that "outpouring." I think that most of the Adventist people are pretty much "empty temples." There may be a few Adventists who are "Spirit filled," perhaps ones who are trying to go by the Bible instead of Ellen White - I don't know. (Though, looking back at being an Adventist, most or all of SDA doctrines are based squarely on Ellen White.) It's really sad that people look to the Sabbath though, instead of the Holy Spirit.  Dianne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6490 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dianne, excellent observations. In Acts 2:16-21 Peter explains that when the disciples received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues, thus causing those watching to say they were drunk, what was actually happening was the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-32. Peter quotes the promise in Joel 2 about the Holy Spirit being poured out "in the last days" on All God's people. If you go back to Joel 2, you'll see that the passage Peter quotes is immediately after Joel's prophecy of the early and latter rains...and the context is clear that Acts 2, according to Peter, is the fulfillment of the "latter rain". Adventists have historically substituted the Sabbath for the Holy Spirit as the seal of God—and that, I believe, is dangerously close to the unpardonable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit mentioned in Matthew 12. One last observation about the Adventist explanation of God as "friend" instead of being "afraid". Without having heard the sermon you actually heard, Dianne, I can say that what you mentioned abouve sounds a lot like Graham Maxwell's teaching that God is our friend. He teaches that Jesus did not have to die a substitutionary death; his death was a demonstration of His love, not a substitute. He maintains that a God who would have His Son die a substitutionary death would be a fearsome God. But no, God has called us His "friends", and we have no need to fear Him because He is our friend. The fact of the matter, however, is that those who do not know Jesus need to fear God. He will punish unbelievers. Jesus Himself said, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both sould and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28). Jesus did call His disciples His friends, and Abraham was referred to as a friend of God. But God is not merely our friend. He is our God—the sovereign Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer, Provider, Savior. To dismiss the substitutionary atonement and reduce God to a mere "friend" is to make Him in our image. We no longer have a soveriegn God. Proverbs tells us that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Those who know Jesus know He has saved them from certain destruction. They have awe and respect for Him, gratitude for His mercy, and confidence in His justice. Those who do not know Him, should fear Him because they stand in danger of suffering eternal destruction. The God who judged the world by the flood will also judge the world at the end of the age at His great white throne judgment. Eternal destruction is real—and God metes it out. So, based on my knowledge of Maxwell's teachings that have permeated much of the church during the past 30 years, I would say that the sermon you heard may well have been promoting a view of God that denies the substituionary atonement in favor of a god who forgives "just because" he's forgiving and not because He is both just and merciful. There is no security in believing in a god like that. Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 131 Registered: 7-2007 |
Actually, it was Dwight Nelson who gave the evening meetings that camp meeting, but he didn't indicate anything like that. He was just saying for people to have a personal relationship with God instead of worrying about all the do's and don'ts. It was about as close to "grace" preaching as Adventists are able to come. Dianne | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 952 Registered: 10-2002  |
What a shock it was the first time I saw the Scriptures that said that the Holy Spirit is God's seal! I had read the NT twice but had somehow missed those four blatant scriptures completely! (Ephesians 1:13-14, 4:30, and 2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5) Suddenly the meanings from different Scriptures began stacking one upon the other, explaining things so clearly! John 6:27 said that God had placed His seal on His Son -- I remembered how when the Holy Spirit that descended on Him at His baptism, Father God said, "This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." He set His Spirit--His seal--on Him then. And then in Revelation (which really mixes up "time"), the "sealing" is seen BY GOD as identifying TO HIM those who are His. In 2nd Timothy 2:19, Paul said, "God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: 'The Lord knows who are His'." How does He know? By His own Spirit in them! For it is the Spirit OF SONSHIP that He puts in us, the Spirit of adoption! (Romans 8 & Galatians 4) That Spirit inside cries out, "Daddy! Father!" and identifies us to Him as His children. It testifies that we belong to God (Romans 8:14) and are the children of God (8:16). It is such a simple, consistent chain! | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 953 Registered: 10-2002 |
P.S. I emphasized "TO HIM" and "BY GOD" because that is the important thing! The important thing is that HE knows you! It is important that you know Him, but more important than that is that He knows you. Paul makes a little statement like that to the Galatians in chapter 4: "But now that you know God--or rather, are known by God" and also to the Corinthians, "But the one who loves God is known by God". The SDA "sealing" is a twisted pulled-from-context proof-texting chain constructed for the purpose of proving to someone that SDA is "the true church". The problem is, who are they proving it to? To other denominations? To themselves? It doesn't matter what other denominations think of you. And it doesn't matter what you think of yourself -- what matters is what GOD thinks of you. You don't need to look for a visible "sealing" -- especially not a WORK that you perform in order to receive that sealing! The SDA "seal" was a way of the flesh, not of the Spirit -- a way by sight, not by faith. A way that we could "see" and assure to ourselves (although we never felt completely assured), "We will be sealed (saved)." It was taking a bit of salvation into our hands, which felt more secure to us. It always felt more secure if it was up to us instead of up to God. By faith? That felt a little to risky to leave the sealing up to God. Where is the seal? What do I have to do? If I do this and have my feet in the right square, then I know I'm safe. Whew! In Adventism we scrambled to do the right works and know the right knowledge because we were subconsciously seeking the restful assurance that we were saved. But this assurance could not come that way -- rather, by faith & Spirit, the way that seems most risky! (Message edited by agapetos on August 09, 2007) | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 546 Registered: 11-2005 |
I think most of this hogwash is aimed at convincing the laity. How many serious symposiums has the Seventh-day Church hosted to convince leading theologians of other faiths of the merit of the "special message from the Remnant Church for these last days", the 1844/Investigative Judgment core doctrine of Adventism? It's all a big farce. They know it. No effort is even being made to dialog with leading theologians of other faiths on this subject that they maintain they are God's exclusive beneficiaries of. Their claim to observance of the Seventh-day Sabbath, based on the Laws of Moses, are equally ludicrous. They insist that the Sabbath is part of the 'moral law' so the Ten Commandments are kept intact, and yet treat it as if each individual believer can choose what is, or is not, right or wrong for him. This effectively destroys the practical authority of Scripture over actual conduct. This is basically "Sabbath Antinomianism." For them, the concern is not in "doing" but in "believing." To see this in action ask your Adventist friend the following questions: 1. "When was someone last disciplined in your congregation for Sabbath breaking?" 2. "Specifically and categorically, what must a person do, or not do, in order to disobey God's Holy Sabbath law in such a way that he will be, as a result of his clear disobedience, disciplined out of your church?" Are there no clear rules for keeping the Christian Sabbath? Are these champions of 'absolute theology and flexible practie' insinuating that Moses was a legalist because he had a man stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath? Or was Moses right in punishing a clear act of disobedience to a clear case of Sabbath breaking? Do we have a moral absolute law with no specific rules showing us how to keep it? Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6501 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ramone, very good insights. Thank you. And Gilbert—you've hit the proverbial nail on the head again. Great points! Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 994 Registered: 8-2004  |
One Adventist explained the seal to me as something like a 'signature' and pointed out that, in his understanding, a seal could only be affixed when each 'letter' (our life and witness) was completed. Thus we could be sealed (and set so we could not be changed) only after we were fully 'living in the light'. I can see how he came to that. However, Jesus HAS completed the letter of our redemption. We are sealed by the Spirit because of what He has done, not because of what we have done or will do or even could do. What a blessing to know myself saved, not because I'm perfect, but because Christ lives in me, because God has brought me to Himself! Worthy the Lamb that was slain, who rose, and is alive forevermore! Blessings, Mary | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 956 Registered: 10-2002 |
Amen, Mary! I've heard many Adventists explain the "seal/sealing" using analogies -- using creation, a painting, a letter, etc. And with these analogies it can sound wise. But they just never use the Bible and miss what the Bible says about the seal. |
