| Author | Message | ||
| Jamundson Registered user Username: Jamundson Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2007 |
In a previous post I asked for help in how to engage in debate with Adventist. The general tone of the responses was that it is useless and I should not try. At the time I was getting nowhere with them so the advice rang true. The problem I am facing is that it is not going away. The Debate is with my FIL. He was a former SDA preacher but fell away 40 years ago and lived a very sinful life. Now in his 80s he is facing his mortality and has come back to the SDA church with great enthusiasm. He has insisted that all his family repent and come back to Sabbath worship, to the point of disinheritance. While I could care less about his money the threat is loathsome to me and his children. I have prayed and sought God for direction and feel compelled to continue engaging in discussion and debate with him. The sense I get from God is to continue to quote scripture ( in full context ) not as he (FIL) does in proof texts. I do not have any theological training, just the Bible and the dozens of bible translations available on the net. Is any one out there willing to come along beside me and observe the back and forth of our debate and give direction and advice? | ||
| Luzisbornagain Registered user Username: Luzisbornagain Post Number: 81 Registered: 7-2007 |
I feel that you should continue in prayer and don't forget to always stay connected to the Holy Spirit so that the Lord can use you as His vessel in presenting the truth to your FIL. I'm pretty sure He will help you. I know the battle is very challenging to the point that it feels hopeless. All I can say is continue in prayer and continue studying the Word and you'll receive your answers in due time. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1222 Registered: 9-2006  |
Boy Jamundson, I can see where you are in a "sticky wicket" as Reb says. Do you feel that the actions of your fil is doing damage to you own family such as wife and children? If he is he may be overstepping his bounds. I,m sure any one of us would help you any way we can, guess you could cut loose and have a go, or you might could drop down into the theological discussion section to do it, know this though we are all for you. I will be praying for you that this is quickly resolved. River | ||
| Jamundson Registered user Username: Jamundson Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2007 |
River My wife and children are firm in the full understanding of the free gift of salvation thru Christ alone. There is no problem there. The problem is that almost every one on my side and my wife's side of the extended family is SDA. Gradually they are all closing in on us with a "vengeance" All of my wife's siblings are nominal Christians but not SDA. They are more susceptible to the disinheritance threat. Also my FIL has remarried and converted the new wife and her family to SDAism He has forbidden me to try to influence them because they are new and "weak in the faith" I enjoy the debate with them because it drives them nuts....if fear maybe I enjoy it to much. I have to work this small brain of mine over time to stay up with them because their proof text are "cheap shots " that require a response with context and meaning. Jay | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 666 Registered: 4-2006  |
Dear brother Jamundson, Go for it  I'm sure many here would like to help you out with any questions. Also I would recommend you pray pray pray and pray. Yours in Christ, Martin | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1224 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jay, I am relieved to hear you say it is not affecting your wife and children adversely. I know what you mean about the proof texting, it drives me bonkers, with my own Adventist friends I do not debate with them, I come in through the back door of praise such as this "Lord I praise you that we can know that we have salvation, thank you for your word" Thank you for the sabbath of rest seven days a week" stuff like that and so I get to drive them bonkers and praise the Lord all at the same time because I am truly thankful for these things, I have never had anyone of them debate me on it. Hang in there brother, just don't let it get too you and get you frustrated too much. I know your situation is diffrent from mine because yours are family. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1225 Registered: 9-2006 |
Amen Martin and how are ya this fine Sunday morning? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4088 Registered: 3-2004  |
Jamundson, How close do the families live to you and your family? If they get to hostile because of their conflict with your beliefs, you may have to set limits that are good for your family. That is something to consider. God bless you and be with you. You know we will all pray for you and help you in any way we can. I am so glad your wife and children are firm in the Lord's hands. Father in Heaven, Thank you for Jesus who died for us. Be with Jay as he talks with his FIL and other family members. Give him the words to say and the Bible verses to read. Let him only speak your words. You promise to supply our needs and he needs this help at this time. Thank you for doing this, right now. As always You are awesome Lord. Diana | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 668 Registered: 4-2006 |
River, I'm great thanks On my way to bed now though ;) Praise to the Lord that He has risen and is a live interceding for us !!! | ||
| Jamundson Registered user Username: Jamundson Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2007 |
flyinglady No the conflict is not physical. It is emotional and spiritual. He (FIL) is manipulative with his threats of disinheritance. Most of the discussion and debate occurs by email. At family gatherings they go silent around me or refuse to read anything except the Clear Word. I am convinced they have become a Cult I do appreciate your prayers Jay | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4092 Registered: 3-2004 |
Jay, I did not mean anything physical. I meant emotional and spiritual by saying things to your wife or children as well as to you. There are folks on here who have had to set limits on their parents and relatives because of things they say. I am so glad that at family gatherings they do not say anything to you. I have the feeling they know you will only answer them from the Bible and they will not be able to counter it. I will continue to pray for you and your family. Never forget what an awesome God we have. Diana | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 132 Registered: 5-2007  |
Jay, Here are some things that I would suggest: 1. Pray continually for the strength, wisdom and the love of Jesus Christ from the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. Ephesians Chapter Six instructs us on who our real enemy is and how to prepare to battle. 2. Set boundaries of debate. Since you are the one being challenged, you have the choice of "weapons", only your Bible will do. Your Bible and nothing else. 3. If your FIL brings up his estate and your potential inheritance, simply say it is a non-issue and should not be a part of the discussion. It has nothing to do with our heavenly treasures. 4. For answers to specific doctrines, post your questions. There are numerous theology students on this forum who are able to respond to any and all topics that may arise. That is one of the main reasons we are here. 5. Go on the offensive, but avoid attempting to being an expert on all SDA doctrines. Be prepared and bring up one key doctrine. I would suggest "assurance of salvation". Read Romans Chapter Eight to him and demand to know who can separate you from the love of God. The last two verse gives the answer. No matter what his response, keep repeating the question until he admits that nothing can separate a Christian from the love of God. 6. Keep us posted, we care and want to be all the help we can. P.S. I am headed into battle myself. Most of my family are long time SDA and we are having our reunion next weekend. I need to follow the same advice and need the same help from the Holy Spirit. I will keep you lifted in prayer. Please pray for my family and that I may have wisdom beyond these simple words of mine. Your brother in Christ, Phil Harris | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4094 Registered: 3-2004 |
Phil, I just prayed for you and will continue to pray for you as you meet with your family next weekend. Diana | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 133 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thanks Diana for your prayer support, The reunion is at Wallowa Lake near Joseph, Oregon. Since we live in the Puget Sound area and my wife is not in the best of health, just getting there will be stressful. As River just said on another thread, is it hot in Henderson yet? Since my mother lived in Los Vegas for over 15 years, we visited there numerous times and went through Henderson on our way to see the dam many times. As I recall, 110°s was normal for this time of the year. Phil | ||
| Jamundson Registered user Username: Jamundson Post Number: 23 Registered: 7-2007 |
Phil Thanks for the good advice. I will spend some time in Romans 8. I think that is a great point. jay | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 518 Registered: 11-2005 |
Phil has some very excellent advice. It is extremely important to stay focused. Make them deal with one issue at a time. Some Adventists will move from subject to subject just to keep you off balance. They are not interested in seeking truth, but just enjoy switching subjects faster than you can keep up with them. You can gradually incorporate more material, but it needs to be on your terms when you are comfortable with your understanding of it. We are all here to support you. I too have the inheritance issue. I decided that there is only one inheritance that I care about, and that is the one I receive as a child of God. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6472 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jay, I also agree with Phil's excellent advice. Indeed, they do tend to move from one subject to another just to keep you off balance. Stay on topic, stay calm and pray in your head while you talk/write, and refuse to debate. I agree re: the inheritance issue: Ellen did say that no money should be left to children who leave "the truth". Ultimately, we have to be content with God's provision and His own inheritance for us. If we refuse to get exercised over the inheritance, their "emotional blackmail" loses its power. Our true Father will provide for us. He is completely faithful. Colleen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 497 Registered: 5-2007 |
Jay, I've never won a debate with an Adventist yet. They always find a way to twist this or twist that. They are best left to the Holy Spirit to deal with IMHO. (Message edited by Reb on August 06, 2007) | ||
| Jamundson Registered user Username: Jamundson Post Number: 27 Registered: 7-2007 |
Colleen, I mentioned the inheritance issue to demonstrate the level to which the debate had digressed. Personally it is not that important to me, but it could be an influence on other siblings, I have found a great resurgence of spiritual energy in confronting the errors of Adventism. Reb, I hear ya...I just cant stop now. I do believe I am in harmony with the Holy Spirit on this. I do pray constantly and thank you all for your references and prayers Jay | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 506 Registered: 5-2007 |
Jay, I pray the Holy Spirit will convince your in-laws that Adventism is false. Whenever I try to debate Adventists I basically get treated like I am stupid and ignorant because I was not born and raised Adventist and was educated 100% in Public rather than Adventist schools. It's like I'm illerate to them because I have a degree in Mathematics from a public University rather than a degree from an Adventist University. I get the impression the Adventists basically think I'm stupid and it's frustrating sometimes. | ||
| Jamundson Registered user Username: Jamundson Post Number: 28 Registered: 7-2007 |
Reb, The arrogance you get from sda.s in the result of the conviction that they and only they have a monopoly on "truth". It is pride and a sense of superiority and it completely blinds and binds them. On the other hand I read a book recently that speaks of Jews receiving revelation from God regarding the deity of Jesus. the title is : Your People Shall be My People" by Don Finto. Great book Jay | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 115 Registered: 4-2007 |
LOL, Reb, as far as never winning a debate...its true, they just never give up. In a thread on CAF, I had one Adventist saying that Samuel was in heaven so he could not have 'come up' to speak to Saul (in reference to I Samuel 28) UM.... hmm..... I guess he forgot Adventists don't believe he was in heaven yet! He was that desperate for a point. With relatives, its hard. If I'm understanding the original post right, the FIL Jamundson is coping with is 80. If he's like some elderly Adventists I know, he's desperately trying to find comfort as he's facing his twilight years. That will prompt him to be ruthless in 'proving' Adventism to you, as he is desperate to prove it to himself. I remember a feeling I had when I was an Adventist, that if I convinced others, then it had to be true so I was able to push away my own doubts, and that I was finding 'favor' myself, pushing away the unease over having to be perfect, etc. So what I'm thinking is there is a lot of motivation and emotion going to be driving the discussion. My experience is that reason flies out the window in that circumstance. I know with my SDA mom, any discussion of religion almost immediately gets very emotional for her. Its impossible to have a reasonable discussion. I know the biggest difference in my life is that I no longer worry about what other people think about my faith, I don't need the validation anymore. I will defend it because I love it, but that old feeling of threat and insecurity if challenged is gone. God Bless, MarysRoses | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6480 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jay, I do understand what you're saying about the resurgence of spiritual energy. Sometimes there are certain discussions that God ordains...and I believe you said most of these that you're having are via email. I've sometimes found the email ones to be easier to keep at the level of truth necessary to make any conclusions at all. God really will nudge you if He wants you to "back off". If your energy is more adrenalin than Spirit, He will convict you! Keep praying and listening to Him! Praying now for you, Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4104 Registered: 3-2004 |
Reb, Look how the SDAs treat us formers on CARM, even the former SDA ministers. They tell us we did not really understand EGW or what ever is being discussed. We were raised in adventism and know it, but because we left, we did not truly understand it. So, you are not alone. Just wanted to remind you of that. Diana | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 510 Registered: 5-2007 |
That is so true, Diana. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 113 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jamundson; I would be happy to help in any way I can! I'm currently discussing those things with one of my sisters via email. I was one of those Adventists who felt fully that the Adventist church was the one true church. Someone talked with me without getting anywhere over a two year period before I "got" it. (Well, they were also fasting and praying for me, off and on too.) Anyway, I'm VERY glad they persisted! Dianne | ||
| Jamundson Registered user Username: Jamundson Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2007 |
Dianne, Thanks for the offer. I am traveling now.. Can we correspond at a later date Jay | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 119 Registered: 7-2007 |
Certainly, I would be glad to! Dianne | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 120 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jamundson, I forgot to mention that I'll be gone for four days. I'll be back on Monday Dianne |
