| Author | Message | ||
| Jamundson Registered user Username: Jamundson Post Number: 11 Registered: 7-2007 |
I have only been on this forum for a short time, so if my questions and comments are out of line I will accept the criticism. I am most curious if anyone has been on a SDA forum posing as someone who is an SDA or as some one of another faith, in the attempt to engage in dialog and debate. Of course there would be the ethical and moral considerations. Is this deceptive? Or is the internet so anonymous that it does not matter? If any of you have done this, can you reveal it here without condemnation? It seems that after all these many years our family and former friends have become almost vicious in their attempt to condemn us. While I do not accept that condemnation being firmly grounded in the saving Grace of Christ, I am looking for the soft underbelly of Adventism to exploit. The reason I ask this is I am so frustrated in my attempt to break thru to the Adventist mind. My wife and I left Adventism 30 years ago and have been very comfortable in both Charismatic and Baptist churches ( yes that is a bit of a dichotomy) , but that has more to do with our location at the time. Please do not conclude I am looking for devious or unsavory methods, I would just like to engage with them in an effective, victorious manner and bypass all the shouting. In addition, as I have observed in some of the SDA forums there is much elitism and intellectualism that clouds the simplicity of the Gospel, as a result much of the dialog is meaningless. Would this be a waste of time and energy even to try? I guess what I am admitting is that I would like to go their forums and engage by stealth, but am troubled this. Am I assuming the role (inappropriately) of the Holy Spirit? Jay | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 452 Registered: 11-2005 |
Hi Jay, That is certainly a valid question to ask. My personal feeling is that regardless of how others act, we are accountable to God for our own actions. Especially as New Covenant Christians, we are honest and above-board in all of our actions, leaving the convicting to the Holy Spirit. It is not our battle. We are just agents to be used by our precious Lord and Savior as He sees fit. We are to be examples of what he does in our lives. We are His ambassadors (as opposed to spies). That said, I personally try to avoid useless debates such as much of what I see on CARM. I want to be a source of encouragement to each seeker of truth. That type of person will sooner or later frequent these FAF forums, where there is an openess, love and supportive environment. Above all I want to be a crystal-clear witness, as best I know how, of the transformation that the Holy Spirit has made in my life since I left Adventism and became a Christian. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6387 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jay, that's actually a very good ethical question. I've never posed as an Adventist when posting on other forums. Personally, I would not be able to say as much of what I really wanted to say if I posed. Further, I believe that, for me, posing would be a waste of time. The cultural and theological "temperature" is such that as long as they can stay engaged in "philosophy", they can avoid the personal grappling of the conviction of the gospel in their own hearts. I have never seen a debate end with anyone becoming swayed to the opposing position. The bottom line, of course, is that the spiritual veil keeps them blind. Unless one is actually willing to allow Jesus (as opposed to theological inconsistencies) to penetrate the veil, there's no hope of their minds changing. This is a spiritual battle, not a theological or philosophical one. I'm not saying you couldn't have an effect, Jay—but personally I would not feel I was acting with integrity inside myself if I posed as an Adventist to try to make my case with Adventists. Actually, this very issue is what finally propelled Richard and me out of the church. We decided we couldn't pretend to be Adventists when we patently disagreed with them. We thought we could stay and "work from inside", but that meant posing. We were actually quite surprised to learn that we had more impact as formers than as "loyalists". Great question, Jay--I'll be interested in others' reactions. (I admit it may be that others have done this very thing. I'm interested to read the responses and outcomes.) Colleen | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 414 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi Jay, I am sure that some have tried this technique of "evangelism" before. In fact is sounds like the type of thing that I would find offensive if it was an Adventist doing it to me. (WOW anybody?) I would suggest that your best way of sharing, is to present the wonderful unadulterated Gospel as found in the New Testament, and the New Covenant, and then share what this new understanding has done for you in your life. I would not become discouraged when the dear SDAs around you don't get it, or want to argue. They can't take away what God has done for you. That will be your most positive witness. Let the Holy Spirit nurture the seeds that you plant, and do not become bogged down in foolish arguments about the law. Peace my friend, Randy | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 40 Registered: 5-2007 |
I'd like to put some emphasis on Colleen statement that "the spiritual veil keeps them blind"... You all cannot imagine the depths of this blindness. It really and truley is UTTER AND COMPLETE. They will call black white and white black. They will try to tell you how the Bible fails, all in an attempt to hold their devilish prophet. You think I am kidding about the black and white issue? I am not. egw states that Christs second coming will start with a small black cloud, Revelation says it will be a white cloud. sda's say that a white cloud can look black. I have HEARD it with my own two ears! Even after I make an sda admit that the second coming will be brighter than the sun, maybe by a factor of a hundred, this person patted their Bible and said "we go by the Bible" while insisting that the initial coming will be on a black cloud all because egw said so. Like I said, utter and complete blindness! It is like nothing else I have ever seen. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4039 Registered: 3-2004  |
On CARM, I do not pretend to be anything but what I am-a born again Christian. I will say what I believe and will not debate. I leave the rest to God. It is my experience that the debate does not convince SDAs. Only God can lift the veil. Diana | ||
| Blessed Registered user Username: Blessed Post Number: 58 Registered: 1-2007 |
I agree with Larry - they do call black white. One of my greatest frustrations is that when I have conversations with them they talk one way eg. I don't bother much about Ellen, and then in the next conversation Ellen is a true prophet and I believe all her writings are true. it is at that point that I want to scream. The bottom line- the only thing that will move them is seeing a difference in our lives - our love for Jesus. Hard but true. Blessed | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 643 Registered: 4-2006  |
I've just read first half of 2 Corinthians this morning and I think some of it can be directly applied to how we present the Good News and Jesus Christ to everybody. "Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ." (2 Cor 4:1-6) "We put no stumbling block in anyone's path, so that our ministry will not be discredited. Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses; in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger; in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left; through glory and dishonor, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors; known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed; sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything." (1 Cor 6:3-10) Jesus you are wonderful! | ||
| Jamundson Registered user Username: Jamundson Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2007 |
Wow.... MWH, you just hit me with a 2X4. Clearly we can not be the one to distort or veil our methods or our Gospel. If we do we are no different than those we seek Jay | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1153 Registered: 9-2006  |
Yeah Jay, That seems to take care of the question; I work with Adventist all the time, not work as on a job, But work with them as a mission that has been placed at my door. I don’t tell them everything I know, there is much I hold back from these people. I try to be Spirit lead in what I do say. I don’t feel that the Spirit has ever led me to argue theology with them in the years that I have been acquainted with them; I have wondered about whether or not I am deceiving in some way since my theology is so vastly different. I don’t pretend to be one of them accepting as friends to them. I pray for them when they are sick, I cry with them when they lose a loved one. Like you, I would like to reach them, but this is a deceived people and it’s been a tuff road from the gitgo. I am trying to be led of the Spirit with them and mostly I just use the power of praise, thanking God for a sure salvation and so forth. That don’t start theological arguments, if fact I think they are afraid of it, I actually think it may strike fear in their heart, that surety of Salvation some how carries with it a warning and that is what I want to do, warn them of putting faith in something other than Christ, I got no bone to pick with them personally, so I treat them with respect and friendship due another human being. When we get to arguing theology I have found that it does get personal real quick and we can be the one who has offended. I am learning to steer clear of that. Sure I bat the old theological ball back and forth with folk on here and we all got opinions, but if it ceases to be done in love then I am wrong and I have been wrong before and I always end up regretting it every time. I am just telling you what my experience has been with my dyed in the wool Adventist friends. Hope this helps. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1154 Registered: 9-2006 |
I do want to add this, there are others who are called to theological debate with Adventist, I know of one in particular, so each person has to go with their particular calling. I just wanted to add that lest you think I think the way I handle them is the way its to be done, God is perfectly able to guide each one in the ministry to which he has been called. River | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 80 Registered: 7-2007 |
When I was an SDA, I was SO CERTAIN that what I believed was true. (I'm sure that's true of most Adventists) A friend of mine was studying the Bible so much and had studied it so long, I was puzzled that she hadn't studied her way right into the Adventist church.  I was hesitant to tell her much about what I believed since I figured that when the "time of trouble" came along, she would join the "remnant people." I was hesitant because I hated to burden her with the Sabbath and avoiding "unclean" meats and tea and such, but we did get into discussions with her trying to persuade me that my religion was wrong. Two years passed. I didn't know it, but she was fasting and praying for me off and on. She was getting discouraged about me and prayed, asking the Lord would it would take to get through to me. He told her that it would be Michael the archangel and told her to wait until I brought it up. She waited and waited... until finally I did. Then she pointed out a couple texts. One was Daniel 10:13 which says Michael is "one of the chief princes." And the other was Jude 9. That puzzled me because Adventists believe that Jesus is God and that text "one of the chief princes" didn't sound like God! These texts didn't entirely convince me but made me willing to look further and see if perhaps the SDA church might be wrong. I did, and one by one, I saw that the doctrines of the SDA church were wrong. For months I was totally astonished that the "one true last days church" was a false church! Dianne | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 81 Registered: 7-2007 |
Oops, I forgot to make my point. I was wanting to say that it seems that if SDAs could see that Ellen White contradicts the Bible, they would study further and see that they have a false religion. Dianne | ||
| Lucybugg Registered user Username: Lucybugg Post Number: 55 Registered: 2-2007 |
My side of the family is slowly drifting away from Ellen Whiteism but still maintain that even with her errors the SDA church is more right than any other church. On the other hand hubby's side of the family maintains that anyone who finds fault with Ellen does so because they don't want to do what she says. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 465 Registered: 11-2005 |
Lucy, It is fascinating how Ellen White in numerous places made statements about "in the end times" people would be trying to make her testimonies of non-effect", etc. Also that people would try to destroy belief in 1844, and on, and on. It is one thing to churn out false doctrine. It takes a much higher level of intelligence to build a "moat" around it that automatically discredits anyone, who even logically (and based on the Bible!) disproves what she said. It is almost uncanny, and freaky. I am convinced that it had to be more than just the product of a psychotic mind. Or perhaps she was in such a "protectionist mode" that all these dire warnings against future attacks on her writings came out of the same paranoid mind that fantasized that Sunday Laws would be passed, and our neighbors would be out to kill us? Are there any other cases where people produced falsehoods, and then produced warnings about people trying to make them of non-effect. I don't remember that with Joseph Smith or Mary Baker Eddy's writings. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1165 Registered: 9-2006 |
Gilbert, While she may have been a psychotic, the reason it seems uncanny and freaky does not result from her but the spirit/s of deception behind Adventism and behind Ellen White. I like the quaint way you put it, not only able to deceive but build a mote around that deception. Spirits don't get old and die like we do so those spirits are just as at work today as then. Now every body pretty soon is going to be accusing me of a spirit behind ever bush, no, I don't believe there is a spirit behind every bush, I believe there is 12 or 14 behind every bush and the Adventist organization is full of them. Thats why you can't get through to them most the time, the truth can be staring them smack dab in the face and they will turn away, now that's uncanny, hows that for uncanny for ya Gilbert. Its frustrating is what it is. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 107 Registered: 7-2007 |
Be persistant, River; that friend who, with the Lord's help, led me out of the SDA church, kept giving me articles that she'd printed off from the internet. She would pester me so much to read them, that I'd consent to read a little. I'd read until I found an exageration or some little thing that wasn't true about the SDA church and then I'd stop reading. (At first she was finding a lot of sites that were particularly hostile to Seventh-day Adventism.) One of those papers I read said that Ellen White said that Jesus wasn't "Almightly God." What?!!! I thought to myself. I'll look up the reference myself! The next Sabbath at church I went into the church library and looked it up. Sure enough, it did say that; but then I looked down further and then Ellen White said that Jesus is "Mighty God." The difference between "Almighty" and "Mighty" puzzled me a little, but I didn't let it stand in my way. Ah-HA!!!! I thought, yes she DID TOO say Jesus is God!!! At my first opportunity I told my friend that Ellen White did indeed say that Jesus is God! And that ended that! Or so I thought. Finally my friend just prayed, asking the Lord what to say and telling Him that she would just wait to say the right thing. He told her to wait until I brought up the subject of "Michael the archangel" and that would be the key. She couldn't understand how that little thing would do it, but she trusted God and waited and waited... Finally I did bring that subject up and she showed me the texts. Those texts puzzled me, because though Adventists believe that "Michael the archangel" is another name for Jesus; Daniel 10:13 calls Michael "one of the chief princes." That didn't sound like God! That made me willing to look into it further to see if Ellen White really WAS a true prophet or not. Anyway, that was the key that got me to studying and finding out that the SDA church was false. Dianne |
