| Author | Message | ||
| Williamjr007 Registered user Username: Williamjr007 Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2005 |
Hi, a while agoo I read a reply from Jeremy where he said this : "First of all, he had no need to tell the Gentiles that the Sabbath was no longer binding on them--since it never was binding on the Gentiles in the first place. They knew this. They did not keep it. As I said above, even the Gentile proselytes who were interested in Judaism and worshipped at the synagogue on sabbath, did not keep the Sabbath. They were not allowed to keep the Sabbath until they were circumcised and became Jews! " I'm looking for scriptual evidence to be able to proof the statement : "They were not allowed to keep the Sabbath until they were circumcised and became Jews!" "They were not allowed"...where exactly do I find such text that says this? Thank you! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6381 Registered: 12-2003  |
William, Jeremy may have some more specific texts, but for starters, the point of Acts 15, where the Council of Jerusalem decided NOT to require circumcision for the Gentiles, is about the Sabbath as well. When a person became a Jew, he had to become circumcised. Both Jewish males and Gentile males had to go through this rite to enter the community. Once a person was circumcised, he then became subject to the Jewish law. Every single law in the Mosaic Covenant—all 613 of them including Sabbath—was required once a person was circumcised. Circumcision was the mark of becoming a Jew. So, when the Jerusalem Council decided NOT to require Gentiles to be circumcised, that decision meant that NONE of the law's requirements were to be kept. This is also the point of Galatians. Throughout the book Paul warns them against circumcision and returning to the law. Circumcision was the sign of belonging to Abraham's seed, and in the OT, that seed was Israel. Israel had to keep the law. In the NT, Abraham's seed is redefined as those who have the faith of Abraham. They are circumcised on their hearts instead of on their bodies—born of the Spirit. Circumcision is obsolete—and so is the law that governed Israel. God's people now are alive in Him. Both circumcision and the Mosaic law are fulfilled in Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1980 Registered: 10-2004  |
William, for a historical perspective, click here. Also, from noahide.org:
The Bible says that the Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel--it was the special sign of the Mosaic Covenant that God made with Israel.
The Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel alone, to sanctify (set apart) Israel from the other nations (the Gentiles). The Gentiles could not be allowed to keep the Sabbath, or else it could not be a sign between God and Israel to separate Israel from the Gentiles. The Jews have always recognized this, and have not allowed Gentiles to keep the Sabbath. A Gentile had to convert to Judaism (usually by becoming circumcised, see the first link above), in order to then be allowed to keep the Law of Moses (which contains 613 commandments, or mitsvot). According to Jews, a Gentile is under "the seven laws of Noah" or the "Noahide laws"--and if he keeps those laws, he is considered a righteous Gentile. As that first link above quotes:
Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 25, 2007) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 692 Registered: 6-2006  |
The Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel alone. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you Jeremy.  Leigh Anne | ||
| Tricia Registered user Username: Tricia Post Number: 65 Registered: 3-2006 |
I have a question that I should know the answer and it will sound dumb of me, but here goes. Did Moses write the 613 laws, directly from God telling him, or did most of them come from the people? If all of the 613 laws came right from Moses, via God, what were all the other laws made up by men--their traditions added to the law, that is talked about in the NT? If God gave all of the 613 laws, I don't see how a person could keep up with it all, much less follow them to the T. Why would God put 613 laws on them? I'm sure these questions are extremely basic to everyone who posts here, but if someone could answer this, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks! Tricia | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 122 Registered: 8-2005 |
Exo 20:1 HCSB Then God spoke all these words: ... Exo 24:3-8 HCSB Moses came and told the people all the commands of the LORD and all the ordinances. Then all the people responded with a single voice, "We will do everything that the LORD has commanded." (4) And Moses wrote down all the words of the LORD. ...(7) He then took the covenant scroll and read it aloud to the people. They responded, "We will do and obey everything that the LORD has commanded." (8) Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, "This is the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you concerning all these words." | ||
| Tricia Registered user Username: Tricia Post Number: 66 Registered: 3-2006 |
Brian3, Thanks for the answer to my question. I shouldn't ever wonder why God chose to do something, but I just wondered why he put 613 laws at once on the people. I know a lot of them concerned how sacrifices were to be offered, a shadow of what Jesus was going to do for all of us (actually the whole old covenant was a shadow, of course). I guess as time went on, the people started adding on their own regulations to it (as if the the 613 weren't enough!). Tricia | ||
| Burntoutdentist Registered user Username: Burntoutdentist Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2007 |
I think we are all forgetting one thing here, The Sabbath may have been in Jewish law but if wasn't a law to start with. It is not Jewish, It is for all the world, it was established at creation and has nothing to do with nationality. Just because it was included in the Jewish laws, does not mean that is how God wants it now. It is not a law, it is a day to remember God and REST!!!. The problem is not the day, but what to do with it!! It is an insult to God to make it a matter of a load of rules. I don't know what to do with it myself, but if won't go away, it's there in his word. It was established before even sin arrived, that is note worthy itself. Peter | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6425 Registered: 12-2003 |
Peter, welcome to the forum. I'm sure many here can give you many different ways to look at this issue that are grounded in Scripture. I want to ask you, have you read Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff? Further, have you slowly read the book of Hebrews, asking God to show you what it means? Hebrews 4 stresses that those who formerly had the gospel preached to them (referring to Israel) did not enter God's rest, so He set a new day, calling it "Today", "when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: 'Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts'." (Heb 4:7). In the following verses the author explains that the Sabbath-rest for the people of God is what we enter when we rest from our own work, just as God did from His. In this passage, which Adventists have wrongly used to support keeping a day holy, the author, instead, shows that now Sabbath-rest is redefined not as "a day" but as "Today", and we experience this Sabbath-rest when we enter the rest of salvation. The misunderstanding here is not realizing what the Bible teaches about the New Covenant and the role of the Ten Commandments in the Old Covenant. Further, the Sabbath was a ritual requirement that was the sign of the Old Covenant. Levitcus 23 lists all the ceremonial Sabbaths given to Israel, and the weekly Sabbath is one of those. I'd like to suggest that you read Chris Lee's excellent and clear study on the covenants at this site: http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/studies/covenants/covenants1.html Also, Jerry Rector's study on the Sabbath on the same site is also good: http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/studies/sabbath/sabbath1.html I'd also like to suggest that you obtain Dale Ratzlaff's book, Sabbath in Christ from this website: www.LifeAssuranceMinistries.com. Also, don't forget that there was no requirement for people to keep the Sabbath given at creation. It was God's rest, and Adam and Eve were already IN that rest until they sinned. No command for keeping Sabbath was given until Exodus 16 when God gave Israel manna, about a month before Sinai. Again, welcome--and welcome to researching the new covenant! Colleen | ||
| Burntoutdentist Registered user Username: Burntoutdentist Post Number: 2 Registered: 6-2007 |
Yes, Colleen, I have indeed read prayerfully for many years about these things more than you can imagine and Hebrews 4 is well known to me. I see your point, but the link to saying the seventh day has no more significance is not so clear to me, you have to stretch the words a bit too much, even the writer in Hebrews stretches it in 4:7. The text doesn't say "new day" in the NIV but "certain day". I must confess I find this passage confusing but cannot be so definite as you are, that the seventh day's significance was done away with here. In the creation account God didn't just rest on the seventh day but made it holy too. The Sabbath was meant to be a holiday (i.e fun!!). in which we could celebrate with God. God knew we needed a rest. The laws and regulations in the old covenant were in the language of the day. Today in the New Covenant I don't think the seventh day is a "regulation" as such, as we are no longer "under a teacher", our nature under the Spirit has changed somewhat. If you view the seventh day as a day we must keep, you are a legalist, which is what most on this forum have tried to escape from!! I don't think God would accept that as worship. It's strange that the whole Christian church has adopted Sunday as a must worship day when the history of it's appearance in the early centuries AD is not too nice ( that is not from Adventism either). I don't want to get too hung up about it as God blesses a sincere effort whatever we do, but I still read in the Word, that the seventh day is special, Jesus also made it special, when he said "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath". I have avoided using the word Sabbath because I want to get away from the Jewish connection. Incidently it's been years since I attended a church on the seventh day, in fact attending a church regularly at all. I don't really fit into any church now, but I am more of a believer I have ever been. The Spirit has been manifest in my and my family's life powerfully in recent years, and I can now say I am filled with his Spirit. Great forum, keep up the good work I didn't know it existed till recently, I left the SDAs 25 years ago, it's great to hear the experiences of others. Peter | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 470 Registered: 5-2007 |
Peter, have you ever tried a Seventh Day Baptist Church? Is there one in your area? Sounds like it might be what you are looking for. I attend SDB church now and they worship on the Sabbath but do not have the unhealthy and legalistic view of it that the SDAs do. If there is an SDB church in your area you may want to check it out. I really like the SDB church. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6430 Registered: 12-2003 |
Peter, I understand your thought process so well. I was there myself for several years. I'll just repeat my earlier question, have you read Dale's book? And have you read the studies I linked to? The fact is that seeing reality from a new covenant paradigm requires a great deal of unlearning an old way of seeing. To be sure, observering Sabbath is not a problem is one does it to the Lord. But coming from an Adventist worldview, Sabbath remains a point of internal angst if one can't see how Jesus fully and completely fulfilled ALL the old covenant--and that the Sabbath as a required observance was part of the Mosaic law. Certainly by no means the whole Christian world considers Sunday a sacred day. Yes, there are some Sunday-Sabbatarians, but they are still unclear about the cermonial nature of the Sabbath. The argument about "creation ordinances" is not a Biblical argument for the Sabbath. The story of creation tells us who God is, who we are, and what our purpose is. Part of being human is marriage--that was given at creation. Sabbath, on the other hand, was not about humanity. It was about God. God did not rest because God needed rest. He "ceased"--that is the actual meaning of the word "rested" in Genesis. God rested, or ceased, His work because it was DONE. Adam and Eve were already IN that rest. When they sinned, they were no longer in God's rest. Again on Calvary God CEASED His work. As Jesus hung on the cross and cried, "It Is Finished", He was not talking about his physical life. He was referring to His work of salvation. He had completed what He came to do. Just like at creation God ceased his work because He was done, so Jesus finished His work. After His resurrection and ascension, He sent the Holy Spirit and established another day for us to enter rest--another day besides the symoblic Seventh: that day is the day we place our trust in Jesus and are made alive by the Holy Spirit. We are again at rest. We have regained the communion with God that Adam and Eve had. We are not just figuratively restored--we are literally restored with living spirits (See Eph. 2:1-10). As my son once said when we were talking about this, the event at Calvary is similar to the event on the seventh day of creation: God finished His work. At creation, God might just as well have said exactly what Jesus said on the cross: It Is Finished. At that moment—whether that moment was at creation or post Jesus' death—all humans who are in Christ are IN HIS REST. They have entered Sabbath. Israel could only figuratively have Sabbath rest because Jesus hadn't died yet. They had figurative sacrifices and symbolic atonement and symbolic rest. After Jesus opened a new, living way to the Father, eternal rest was restored. Adam and Eve had eternal rest until they sinned; now, in Christ, we have it again. They shadow of the day is no longer needed. We now have the substance of the shadow, and we are eternally at rest in Him. We only wait, now, to experience His final redemption of our physical bodies! Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1603 Registered: 7-2003 |
As one who goes to a church that has services Saturday and Sunday, I think you would find 'Sunday as a must worship day' errant. Most of the larger churches in my area offer services on both Saturday and Sunday, and I think God honors sincere worship regardless of when or even where it is offered. Romans 14 is clear that some will keep a holy day and some won't....we aren't to judge based upon that. I wasn't raised Adventist, so to see all the buzz about 'when' I worshipped was a new phenomenon. The only ones I've ever heard tell me there was a right/wrong day to worship God has been adventists. In 44+ years inside Christian churches of all varieties, I've never heard Sunday emphasized one single time. As far as translations, I wouldn't hold the NIV to be a word-for-word type translation...NASB is the translation which I've been told is more literal. But look Hebrews 3-4 up in several translations and read it in context. To me, God resting at creation means nothing to what I'm supposed to do. Nothing tells me anyone else prior to Exodus 16 did any 7th day observance. He has made lots of things holy (like showbread, etc.) that aren't any more. What is absent is a prohibition from worshipping on Sunday. So, it's hard for me to think there's something 'wrong' with worshipping God any day, even Sunday. I tend to go Sunday just because that's what meets my family's schedule needs, but there are times I've gone Saturday to do something else on Sunday. Both are intended to honor God equally. Welcome to the forum. | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 123 Registered: 8-2005 |
The creation ordinances of marriage and dominion over the earth were repeated to Noah, the new father of the postdiluvian world: Genesis 1:28 NASB God blessed them (Adam and Eve); and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth." Genesis 9:1-2 NASB And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. (2) "The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given. Is it significant that Noah was given no command to keep the Sabbath or is this further evidence that Sabbath observance is not a creation ordinance? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6436 Registered: 12-2003 |
Good point, Brian. Colleen | ||
| Burntoutdentist Registered user Username: Burntoutdentist Post Number: 3 Registered: 6-2007 |
I will read the references and book you have suggested and come back with my opinion of them, it would be unfair for me to comment without looking at them first. I find your arguments difficult to hang together as you have assumed so many things without direct Biblical evidence,it is this type of thinking that has produced so many different church denominations. Maybe this is the way God works with us. I would like your comment on the aspect of the creation story that you failed to answer in your previous post. If God was just resting after creation, why did He also make the day holy, it certainly wasn't for Him? One last thought on the ten commandments, If they are just part of the mosaic law why were they separated out from the rest and carved on the tablets of stone. The others weren't. We don't seem to mind the other 9 commandments, they manifest the Love and Character of God. Unfortunately it was not a good way to show the Love of God but it's what he had to do in the old covenant times before the Gift of the Holy Spirit. I'll read Dale's book and get back to you all. Peter | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 124 Registered: 8-2005 |
IMO the question is "When" did God bless and set apart the 7th day? The text seems to me to say that He blessed it and set it apart because He "had" rested/ceased on it. Not that He ceased,blessed, and set apart all at the same time. Because of this I believe He blessed it and set it apart in Exodus 16. Gen 2:3 (ASV) And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it he rested from all his work which God had created and made. (HCSB) God blessed the seventh day and declared it holy, for on it He rested from His work of creation. (KJVA) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. (LITV) And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because He rested from all His work on it, which God had created to make. (NASB) Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. (NET.) God blessed the seventh day and made it holy because on it he ceased all the work that he had been doing in creation. (YLT) And God blesseth the seventh day, and sanctifieth it, for in it He hath ceased from all His work which God had prepared for making. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 91 Registered: 7-2007 |
Yes, it says in Genesis 2:2,3 that God rested, blessed and sanctified the seventh day. It doesn't however, say that it was given to anybody to keep as a Sabbath. It isn't even called a Sabbath there. The first time in the Bible where it's given as a Sabbath to anybody to KEEP, is to the Israelites when God gave them the manna in the wilderness. (see Exodus 16:23-29) Both the Ten Commandments and the rest of the Law given to Israel, were given just to Israel, not to their forefathers, not to the Gentiles and not to us. Here's Moses speaking to the Israelites just before he repeats the Ten Commandments to them: "The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive." Deuteronomy 5:3 Then he goes on to repeat the Ten Commandments. I'm thinking that Adventists get hung up on the fact that the Ten Commandments listed in Exodus 20, (Exodus 20:11) show as a reason why Israel was to keep Sabbath, the fact that God created the earth in six days, and rested and blessed the seventh day. I'm thinking God said that as a way of saying, "Hey, I'm God and I did this, so obey Me!" Go back to Deuteronomy 5 and look down the list of the Ten Commandments repeated there, until you get to the fourth commandment commanding the Sabbath. Check out what reason is given there. Deut. 5:15 "And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day." Adventists say that the sign and seal of God is the Sabbath. The Sabbath was the sign between God and Israel. Notice that Moses spent some time up on Mount Sinai with God as God gave him the laws for Israel. Finally God said: "Speak also to the children of Israel, saying 'Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord Who sanctifies you.'" (Exodus 31:13) Here's another text that tells of the covenant between God and Israel. Deuteronomy 4:13: "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone." Peter, you mentioned the other nine commandments. Those too, were "nailed to the cross" when Jesus died. Let me explain. Notice the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." In the new covenant, that law has been not only repeated, but greatly expanded on. Now a person isn't even allowed to hate. Furthermore a person is commanded to love their enimies. That would be impossible under the old covenant, but with the Holy Spirit it's possible. And what is the Seal of the new covenant? Adventists say it's the Sabbath. They split the law into two parts and say that the covenant with Israel that I just quoted from Deuteronomy 4:13 is for all time. 2 Corinthians 3:7,8 mentions that covenant; "But if the ministry of death written and engraved on stones was glorious..." then it mentions the new covenant; "how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?" And what is the Seal of God? Ephesians 1:13 says Who the Seal is. "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in Whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise," I like the next verse also. Eph. 1:14 "Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." (Hmmm... "guarantee of our inheritance!" that kind of undermines the concept of the investigative judgment, doesn't it?! But this thread is about the Sabbath, so I'd better get back on track.) So the Seal of God is the Holy Spirit and the Spirit is the ONLY way that we can have any power to obey. (Not that we obey to be saved - no! We are saved (Eph. 2:8,9) and being filled with the Spirit (Romans 8:9) we can't help but WANT to please Him!) The Spirit writes God's laws on our hearts, but that's not the only change between the old and new covenants, or we'd still be having animal sacrifices and circumcision. The word "Testament" means "covenant" so people need to read the New Testament to see what's for us today in the new covenant. Concerning the Sabbath; Hebrews 4 says that TODAY is now our Rest. Colossians 2:16,17 says that ALL those old feasts, New Moons and Sabbaths are shadows of Christ and Romans 14:5,6 says that it doesn't matter if a person esteems one day above another. I challenge anyone to show where the New Testament (new covenant) commands a specific DAY to be observed now. Anyway, I hope I didn't come across too strong - I just wanted to show what the Bible says on this important subject. Dianne | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 125 Registered: 8-2005 |
Asuprise: Yes, it says in Genesis 2:2,3 that God rested, blessed and sanctified the seventh day. It's just not clear to me anymore that this all happened at the same time. IMHO Genesis 2:2 tells us "when" God ceased. Notice all the "rested/ceased on"'s Gen 2:2 (ASV) And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. (HCSB) By the seventh day, God completed His work that He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work that He had done. (KJVA) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. (LITV) And on the seventh day God completed His work which He had made. And He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. (NASB) By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. (NET.) By the seventh day God finished the work that he had been doing, and he ceased on the seventh day all the work that he had been doing. (YLT) and God completeth by the seventh day His work which He hath made, and ceaseth by the seventh day from all His work which He hath made. Genesis 2:3 tells us "Why" He blessed and set it apart. Because He "had" ceased sometime in the past. | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 279 Registered: 7-2005  |
I hope to remind us all that the Bible leaves room for each of us to have our own way of honoring God by honoring a day or not honoring a day. ______ Rom 14:5 - One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. Rom 14:6 - He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. _____ Both Sabbatarian Christians and non-Sabbatarian Christians are able to Biblically honor God. Neither way is wrong, but insisting that our way is right and another's way is wrong certainly displeases God. Lord, please help us to love You by loving each other as we respectfully discuss this topic. Honestwitness | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 93 Registered: 7-2007 |
Yes, that's true. Romans 14:5 gives us the freedom to observe the day or not observe it, as we should choose. However it's when people say that we HAVE to observe a day, that it's the Seal of God - that's when it's wrong. Then our eyes are off of our True Rest, Jesus and onto our own performances. Dianne | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 94 Registered: 7-2007 |
Ever since discovering that the SDA church was wrong, I guess I've been a bit over-enthusiastic - writing to Adventist pastors, relatives, etc. trying to "drag" them out of the Adventist church. I need to learn to be tactful as well! Dianne | ||
| Burntoutdentist Registered user Username: Burntoutdentist Post Number: 5 Registered: 6-2007 |
As I said before, I think God honours (sorry about the spelling, I'm English) our faith more than anything, it is faith and faith alone in Jesus that unlocks salvation, it's the heart he's looking at. If we get hung up about these issues we are no better than the SDA church we left. I only put some ideas before you so see what you all thought. No one has the monopoly on truth and all of us have areas where we could be wrong. I am finding out those areas are larger than I thought in my life. Thanks Honestwitness your message is spot on!! Peter (Message edited by burntoutDentist on July 31, 2007) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 716 Registered: 6-2006 |
Peter, I didn't get a chance to welcome you - so Welcome! Please share your story when you're ready. Looking forward to reading more from you. Leigh Anne | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 169 Registered: 5-2007 |
Sometimes I wonder why God has chosen to allow or require mankind to attempt to decipher His will from our percieved impressions, notions, Spiritual, emotional, intellectual, debate, analysis, logic, research, and so on. In short, to determine His truth and will by means of our best understanding, our best guess. To establish the basis of truth on our best faith in observations and starting points. ie: Scripture, creation, design. To convince ourselves by experimentation, prayer, mental consent thru repetition, sensory modes and awareness. In other words, we do our best to get it right. In this view, we really have not improved on the SDA EGW model of never knowing we have achieved salvation. Because ultimately it depends upon being in a right relation with God. That means getting at least the relationship right, if not also basic doctrines right. I try to go to bedrock in this new walk. I am still in review and research mode. The main thing I ask myself. What are the absolutes? In this modern society of no absolutes, it gets to the point nothing is defineable, nothing is right or wrong. Everything is subjective and can be rationalized away. Just pick your path. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6447 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, I understand your question so well. The bottom line, in reality, is that the absolute IS the Triune God. Jesus is our absolute. The bottom line, which is so antithetical to post-modern thought, is that we are asked to trust Him. He allows us to have all kinds of misperceptions about Him, but the fact is that, if we truly desire to know Him and to pursue Truth, He reveals Himself. It is a slow revelation, because He isntroduces Himself in ways we will recognize. This recognition also requires us to surrender and admit the truth about ourselves. But if we are willing to know what is true, we will see Jesus more and more clearly. Jeremiah 29:13-14 has an amazing promise. God made it to Israel, but it applies to all people who are willing to repent: "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you," declares the Lord, "and will bring you back from captivity." In the new covenant, God brings His people out of captivity to sin. When we are repentant, He keeps His promises to deliver us, and we begin to see Him as He is. It requires our willingness to repent and to lay down our preconceived ideas about Him, but when we are willing to respond to His conviction on our hearts, He reveals Himself in His forgiveness and blessing. God does not leave our understanding up to us. He only asks that we be willing to humble ourselves before Him. Philippians 1:6 says he is faithful to complete what He begins in us. 1 Corinthians 1 & 2 say that when we are willing to give up our rational analysis of reality and submit to God through Jesus, His Spirit will teach us spiritual things. We learn reality by the teaching of His Spirit through His word. He doesn't teach us everything at once, but He teaches us step-by-step. The key is willingness to be taught--willingness to give up our right to understand HOW everything works and be willing to submit to His word and be open to His literal teaching. As 1 Cor 2:16 says, We have the mind of Christ. God is faithful, Jim. He asks us to trust Him, to live with the unanswered questions and to trust Him to reveal the truth underlying them in His time as we grow. The mystery is that when we are willing NOT to "figure it out" on our own, when we are willing to repent and submit, to turn to His word and ask Him to teach us truth, the truth of reality begins to become more and more clear. God is faithful, Jim. And remember—God is the ultimate value in the universe—not us, and not our perception of Him or our understanding. The glory of God is the essence of truth, and He glorifies Himself when we trust Him alone. He is the absolute. Regardless of society or the current philosophical desconstructionism, God IS absolute. He alone! Colleen | ||
| Burntoutdentist Registered user Username: Burntoutdentist Post Number: 10 Registered: 6-2007 |
Take a few verses, and ask several people to give their interpretation of them, and I guarantee that you probably will get several completely different angles on the passage. I think The Lord is trying to teach us tolerance for each other and quietly smiling (in Love of course) as we usually make a mess of it. Peter | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 97 Registered: 7-2007 |
I think the key is to accept HIM, the Jesus of the Bible. For example, Mormons believe that Jesus had a beginning, that He was the literal offspring - a spirit child, along with Lucifer and everybody else, both people and angels (because they believe that the "spirit children" that they believe are born in Heaven enter the bodies of babies and grow up as humans, here) to a Father Who Himself had a beginning. They believe that God the Father used to be a mortal and became a god. They believe that humans likewise can become gods. Now, do they believe in the Jesus of the Bible?? No, of course not! They claim James 1:5 in the Bible for wisdom, then they pray that God will show them if what they are reading is true - then they read Joseph Smith's books! Being presumptuous like that, is it any wonder that they get this "testimony," this warm "burning in the busom" conviction that Joseph Smith's writings are true? They believe in "Jesus" too and in "Heavenly Father" but they have a wrong Jesus. The Bible - especially the New Testament which shows the New Covenant that Jesus brought in by His death and resurection - has a very simple gospel, actually. It simply tells us to accept Jesus (the Jesus of the Bible) and accept what He did for us. That friend who led me (with God's help) out of the Adventist church, used to be a Catholic. As a Catholic (about 30 years ago) she was taught NOT to read the Bible because only the priests could interpret it. In her religion, one could rarely be able to go straight to Heaven, but usually a person had to go to pergatory first. (Unless they did some great thing like crawl through the holy doors.) There were certain sins which were "mortal" sins, which, if a person committed, would send them straight to hell if they died; unless they had had the opportunity to confess to a priest before they died. There were lots of other things they HAD to do too, in order to be right with God. Also the priest would sacrifice Jesus over and over and over again in their Mass. They believed Jesus ACTUALLY became that bread. Anyway, it seems to me that that church may be rejecting Jesus offer of the free gift of salvation and trying to earn it instead. Seventh-day Adventists are much more subtle in their legalism, because out of one side of their mouths they proclaim that salvation is indeed a free gift. (I think it's significant that they ignore the covenant that Jesus brought in by His blood and go back to parts of the old one.) Anyway, what I'm saying is that Jesus did it all and paid it all and that if a religion teaches that there's SOMETHING that a person has to do on their own, they're a false religion. A person simply needs to believe in the Jesus of the Bible - that's all Dianne | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 98 Registered: 7-2007 |
Basically, our only safety is the Bible. When people believe other "inspired" writings like "Doctrine and Covenants" by Joseph Smith, "The Great Controversy" by EGW, or the "Koran" by Mohammed; they find a wrong Jesus, or they think Jesus isn't God or they reject Jesus' sacrifice for them and go back to the old covenant, etc... The devil wouldn't bother starting up all these false religions if "all roads lead to Heaven." Study the Bible and the Bible only and accept the Jesus of the Bible. That's basically what I wanted to say. Dianne |
