| Author | Message | ||
| Cloudy Registered user Username: Cloudy Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2007 |
This is a follow up to the Christian Mysticism thread. I sent an email to the group explaining my concern about the book and how I did not feel that I could continue training with them. I returned the books I'd been given to the church office on Sunday. I have since received emails from 2 of the other team members who joined at the same time I did, both asking me to reconsider and stay with the group. One tells me she is also struggling with the book and feels the group would benefit from my input. The other gave me his thoughts that reading the soul could be considered a gift of the Spirit such as Ananias reading and giving sight to Paul's soul. He also says that the book is not really about reading the soul, but about being a Good Samaritan. He asks me to consider WWJD and submits as an example Jesus breaking the Sabbath commandment, going beyond the written word to what God expected of Him(!) and that is what I should do with this book. That he believes Jesus led me to this ministry and I may be allowing my discomfort (and the devil) to dissuade me from following Him. I will respond to these emails, but wish to leave, as River said, without condemnation or regret. This is easier said than done. (Message edited by Cloudy on July 24, 2007) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 67 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hi Cloudy, when a person leaves a false religion, the devil likes nothing better than to get that person into another false religion or idea. I would RUN from that group and warn the ones writing to you to do that too! It sounds as if that study could endanger a person's soul! Please don't be afraid of offending anyone! (A couple examples of people who left one false church for another are; a man who works here where I work who used to be Catholic and now is an Adventist. Also I have an acquaintance who knows someone who was a Mormon and became an Adventist.) The devil doesn't care what a person believes as long as they get sidetracked away from the truth of God's word. I hope I didn't come on too strong. This is VERY important though! Dianne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1136 Registered: 9-2006  |
Cloudy, I went back to the previous thread to refresh my mind, I am still disturbed about what you wrote about it, namely this> “ In a small group at church we have been reading a book called "Listening for the soul". It describes contemplative prayer as imagining how another's soul is feeling; as resting in a place beyond thought and concept; as intuitive awareness; as wordlessly listening for God's voice. It suggests starting with right-brain activities as a means of freeing the intuitive response of the soul. It suggests walking in a beautiful place, paying attention to one's breathing pattern and possibly using simple repetitive phrases as in chanting. It also suggests using an icon to remind oneself to be mindful of God. Visualization as a form of wordless prayer is mentioned, and "repeating succint phrases until they take on a deep life of their own within us", and lastly, "poustinia days". Cloudy, I won’t sit here and pretend to know anything about this group of people, I have no idea of their intentions or beliefs, what I do know is that I have been in this Christian walk for a long time, had many prayers answered, heard many sermons preached, heard many “methods”. All the way I know to pray is to pray from the heart, I don’t care which method you use physically, kneeling, standing, sitting, I don’t care if it is standing on your head in a bucket of water, the only way I know to talk to God is to pray earnestly and from the bottom of your heart. There is no trick to awareness of God, there is no tricks involved with him. God hears people with a broken and contrite spirit and there’s no method to that, all it is, is coming before him in truth and honesty, coming to him in prayer in your thoughts (God reads minds) and reading his word and then thinking prayerfully in your heart and from your heart about his word brings us awareness of his presence and deepens our experience with that presence. When we get taken up in busyness and the cares of this life it puts distance between us and being able to feel his presence, sometimes I just let my heart do the talking. See, breathing patterns ain’t got nothing to do with what is your heart, what do you do for your husband if you have one, do you say “Well if I use a breathing pattern, or use repetitious words, that will make me more aware of him?” If you do you got marriage problems and I don’t want to hear them. I will assume though that you are like most women and you know how to get his attention. Just go to God with the love in your heart that’s all and you will have his attention I am pretty positive. Now I don’t know whether or not this all has anything to do with what they are about so I don’t know if what I am saying will do you much good, it just sounds like baloney to me and I don’t want you to get mixed into something that will grow harder and harder to get out of. That is my heart. Sometimes with people we just have to make our stand, there are always going to be people wanting you to go their way. As for myself I am going to stick with the Bible as my ultimate guide as to the people I worship with, it gets away from that and I am out of there. Just telling you my feelings on it, tellem to bring out the Bible and forget the book and see what they say? I’d just be willing to guess they will cut the cord for you. They probably wont continue begging you to stay. I would have been out of there when they brought out the book, but that’s just me. I gotta go along with Dianne, I would RUN like a scalded dog. River | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 796 Registered: 7-2004  |
I would have a real problem with that. Staying away from Eastern mysticism type stuff has nothing to do with "obeying the Law". It has to do with how one interacts with what source. River's post explained really well how there are no methods. Why do they think God expects this sort of thing? Why would this same person who suggested such a thing not use a ouija board to contact Jesus? You could use the same arguments. Except that it isn't necessary to use a ouija board to contact Jesus, and it is using the same method a non-Christian would use to contact a very different source. It kind of shows a lack of trust that God hears us just as we are - no tricks or methods necessary. No hoops to jump through, no work to learn or do on our part. Also, did Ananias go through learning any methods in order to restore Paul's sight? All examples I've seen in the Bible are instantly given by the Holy Spirit for specific situations. Besides, who said he "read" Paul's soul? If I recall correctly, the Bible says he was told about Paul directly by God--they had a literal conversation over it. He knew exactly what God expected him to do before ever meeting Paul. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6379 Registered: 12-2003  |
I totally agree with River and Raven and Dianne, Cloudy. There are no methods for prayer. God Himself intercedes for us with groans that words can't express (Romans 8), and he reponds to our prayers to Him. He asks us to approach Him boldly, as our Father, with praise and petitions. There's no method for praying and experiencing Jesus--and we are never asked to listen to each other's souls. We are asked to respond to Jesus—He ministers through us to others. Our service to others is actually our act of worship and obedience to Him. We relate to each other IN Him. Run, Cloudy...! Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 933 Registered: 10-2002  |
Hi Cloudy -- Remember that it is written those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God (Romans 8:14). It is *not* written that those who follow the prophets are the children of God. Instead, it is those who follow the Spirit speaking to their own spirit. If there is no "resonance" to what someone says to you about where Jesus is calling you, then there is definitely a need to pause and seek the Lord about it, and *not* take it for granted that the Lord is urging you in some direction. If someone believes that Jesus has brought you to a certain ministry, then the best thing they could do would be to urge you to seek the Lord for yourself. And if you had doubts about it, they should let you take some time away, because if the Lord truly took you to that ministry, then He will make it clear to you because His Spirit lives in you. Sometimes He takes us places but then in all the hustle & bustle we get occupied and can't hear His Spirit speaking. This is especially true when people are putting external pressure on us to stay here, do this, join that, etc. God is GOD. He is not worried about time. He is the beginning and the end, and He has you in His hand. If they have suspicious practices based on sketchy interpretations of Scripture, and if they are giving any external pressure that "this is what God is saying" to you or about you, and if they are not selflessly urging you to seek the Lord for yourself, if they are not committing you into the Lord's hands but urging you in the flesh, then by all means RUN indeed. ***** It is possible that the Lord brought you there to give a word to them about these things. Pray and ask Him about that. Follow His voice in your spirit. Here is my experience with this: I felt led by God to be among a group of people once, and later I joined their church. They seemed "advanced" in some way, and yet as I joined, I knew there were some problems here and there, but I didn't speak out about them generally because the acceptance felt good. Over time as they pressured me to enter their Bible college classes, and I sought the Lord about it but could get no answer. As I went to Him I soon learned that I was unable to hear Him because I had shut off my ears to part of His voice as I was joining them. From the beginning He was showing me some things that were problems there, and in fact *that* was the reason He sent me there in the first place. But because I didn't want to say anything and wanted to enjoy being included (and even esteemed among them), He withheld His voice from me until I repented and talked to them about the problems. They wanted me to take their word for it and were not willing to study. Rejection and ostracization came, and we left, and we are glad. We weren't the only ones who left, either. Not including us, I can think of about five others and one family that left within the span of a few months. One of those who left, before she left, she saw a vision something like of the church and but with dead prophets lying on the ground, and then an earthquake happened. The meaning was clear -- God had sent people there and each one that left was one of the "slain prophets" speaking the word of His heart, which was rejected and instead each person ("prophet") was discredited, rejected, accused, given a guilt trip, etc. I.e., slain. This was part of the calling, however. Sometimes God sends people ("prophets") to be slain, as a testimony to them. Some will hear, some will not. Perhaps most will not. But we have His promise that nothing we've done in Him is in vain, even if it is shedding some of our blood, so to speak. ***** Anyway, that's an example. Don't let anyone pressure you or give you a guilt trip. God is sufficient and He is in no hurry, but is patient with us. And it is doubley-terrible if they are pressuring you simply because you are questioning their suspicious ideas!!! If the Scripture barely supports their ideas, and they give you some variation of the "Jesus wants you do this" trip, then know that it is spiritual abuse that is going on, not the leading of the Lord. God is patient and gentle with us, and does not need to use such methods! Bless you, Cloudy, as you wait on the Lord and as you speak your heart--and His word through there--in response to them! Don't be afraid of looking stupid or foolish in their eyes. Yes, I know Jesus said He would give us words of wisdom, yet that often looks different than we imagine. Sometimes He does that, and at other times, He calls us to carry the cross like He did and "not open our mouths". This is especially true of people/leaders who are cultic-ly sure of their beliefs to the point that they will lay guilt trips on those who question their ideas. Because of your openness and your sensitivity to the Spirit (your willingness to be instructed and not be stubborn), they may pounce on your vulnerability. This happens often -- it's happened to many people I know and pray with. Because of their "sureness", we often feel weak before them. No, bind that spirit of intimidation in the name of Jesus Christ, because He kept His mouth shut (like a sheep before the shearers) and yet He was not weak at all, but was God in the flesh! In the same way, be fearful only towards God, and don't be afraid even if they "shear" you. It's okay, you're covered by Him no matter what! Say what He puts in your heart, and as He instructs, leave -- and leave them to the Lord. Sorry for writing so much of my own experience. Blessings in Jesus' rest, love, and in His Spirit who already has you and will not let you go! Ramone | ||
| Cloudy Registered user Username: Cloudy Post Number: 23 Registered: 7-2007 |
I am praising God for this forum! I feel like God is using you to remove some scales from my own eyes. I have been prone to looking for a prophet to lead me. The Holy Spirit wants to speak directly to ME? As this has been sinking in, my heart has been singing for joy! Thanks be to God! | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 935 Registered: 10-2002 |
God is truly awesome, Cloudy! I'll share another experience that touches my heart and makes my eyes water even today as I share it. I was part of a prayer meeting with some friends who had different spiritual gifts. I seemed to not have the more extraordinary gifts, and one day as I began praying (out loud) something happened. I kind of knew that I was hoping the Lord would give confirmation through one of the members who often received confirmation. But nothing came that time, and I was a bit in agony. As time went on, that person received God's heart for me and spoke it, basically saying, "Ramone, I don't know how to say this, but the Lord told me that He is not going to give you any confirmation through me tonight, because He wants to speak to you directly Himself and not through me, because you've been depending on hearing my confirmation, and He wants His own relationship with you, not through me." The effect of hearing this was far different than what I could have imagined -- instead of being upset or in denial, I broke down in tears crying! Inside I felt inadequate in my relationship with Him and like I couldn't hear Him, and I depended on the confirmations He would send though my friends. I broke down crying because somehow in depending on them it was a great WEIGHT to me, and that night God released me from it! I felt so relieved! It was deep and personal and wonderful. God was breaking off of me a sense of feeling rejected that I had grown up feeling. He is so, so wonderful! Real prophets will point you to Jesus so you can get in relationship with Him and hear Him for yourself. The Holy Spirit is your inheritance given to you in the New Covenant -- "No longer shall one teach another saying, 'know the Lord', but they all shall know Me". "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit (essence) of prophecy." "All the prophets testify that we have forgiveness of sins in His name". All (true) prophets must be more interested with you learning to hear God for yourself than in you being with them or following them. When John the Baptist was baptizing, some of his disciples saw Jesus and he said, "Look! The Lamb of God!" Whenever John said that, some of his own disciples got up, left him, and went after Jesus. Did John stop them? No, he said, "Behold, God's Lamb! This is the one I was to announce! He must increase, I must decrease." Blessings in God's Word, Jesus Christ. Ramone | ||
| Cloudy Registered user Username: Cloudy Post Number: 25 Registered: 7-2007 |
That experience also touches my heart. I have been confused about how the Spirit could talk to my spirit, and have had a heaviness of spirit for some time which I could not explain or lift. Your testimony helped me realize that it was I who had shut my ears to part of His voice. I could not stop the tears from flowing. I did respond to the people who urged me to return , explaining why I could not participate in training which was not based on biblical principles. To the woman who said she was also troubled by the book and needed my input I also included the links about contemplative prayer from the previous thread. To the man who defended the book and urged me to return because he believed Jesus wanted me there, I also replied that Jesus broke the Sabbath commandment because He fulfilled the old covenant Law with its seal of the Sabbath; and as christians we are under the new covenant, sealed by His Spirit with His law written on our heart! He has responded that he accepts the Bible, but feels he needs to glean what he can from any book by another disciple to stretch himself and understand the Bible and its principles, adding an example of Paul disagreeing with Peter's treatment of the gentiles, even though they are both under the new covenant, sealed by His Spirit. I do not intend to respond to him further, since he seems more rhetorical. My spirit is no longer heavy, and I can cry and sing again! The joy of the Lord is my strength. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 939 Registered: 10-2002 |
Cloudy, I praise God for how He's helped you and restored you through this! Isn't it an important experience with Him that you'll never forget? The other night I was wondering about how to hear Him again -- this after years of hearing Him! I already knew it, but I realized again that the way I heard Him yesterday is not always the same as the way I hear Him today. As I was still and surrendered to His ways again, I heard Him. Haha, I asked Him why it's not the same place/way each time for me, and He said that it's so that I don't get focused on that way but instead focus on seeking, stilling and quieting to let Him be Himself. He's not a tame Lion. And that's why we love Him!  | ||
| Cloudy Registered user Username: Cloudy Post Number: 28 Registered: 7-2007 |
Yes, Ramone, I will remember this experience with Him.Perhaps the way we hear Him seems to change because we are not in the same place as we were the last time we heard Him. Like Christian in Pilgrim's Progress there are new obstacles, challenges and future joys ahead of us.I am thankful that He who began a good work in us will be faithful to complete it! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6414 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ramone, great post. You're right--the Lord Jesus is continually calling us to deeper surrender, and as we allow Him to teach us more and reveal Himself to us in deeper ways, we have to learn to trust Him in new ways. He doesn't function with a formula. It seems that the one consistent thing I can count on is that God will not answer my prayers the same ways over and over, and He WILL stay with me through whatever I must walk. He is faithful. Colleen |
