| Author |
Message |
Joyfulheart
Registered user
Username: Joyfulheart
Post Number: 17
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 9:42 am: |     |
Wow Gilbert, I got called in and yelled by the pastor and two elders and was told I was an agent of Satan in the church for mentioning a web site the didn't want people to know about - and this was after church in the parking lot. Churches must be different here.
Even mentioning that one has questions regarding 1844 and the Investigative Judgment- not to mention the Sabbath is a SERIOUS offense where I come from.
Questions to those around here are almost a revelation to them that you're not completely with them doctinally anymore. There are serious consequences for openly questioning here.
You passed out Dale Ratzlaff's books at church? That is unimaginable to me.
Your boldness is an inspiration. I'm limited to prayer - although I am acutely aware of it's power! I've decided the battle must be won on my knees. People around here are so deceived. It's so sad. |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 447
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:01 am: | |
The Pastor at the SDA church I attended thinks Dale Ratzlaff is doing the "work of Satan".
I didn't get woodshedded that badly, Joyful heart, but last year when I introduced long/old earth creationist views during the Beginnings and Belongings Quarter, there were people accusing me of not believing in the Bible, some even accused my of not believing in God. I was IMMEDIATELY removed as an Ellen White Indoctrination Hour teacher, the reason being that they thought I didn't believe in the Bible.
Yet THEY believe in this 1844 NONSENSE which is completely UnBiblical. Go figure. |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 443
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:29 am: | |
Joyfulheart,
Yes. People were very open to looking at all sides of an issue. I passed out quite a number of copies, and amazingly it was viewed as "interesting" material. No one really seemed to feel threatened by it. In fact, it was viewed as a sort of "academic freedom" -- "unity in diversity", if you will.
I also printed out quite a bit of material from http://ellenwhite.org, put it in binders, and passed it out.
See. They view that as one of the wonderful benefits of the "new" Adventism. It confirms what they say about Adventism accommodating freedom to "follow your conscience". They can point to that as reason enough why there is no need to look elsewhere.
I was so frustrated with the blatant falsehoods and total absence of even basic principles of sound Biblical interpretation in Clifford Goldstein's hideous 1844 Quarterly, that for a month or so I discussed with the pastor starting up a Bible Study class the 4th quarter and just doing expository studying of Romans for those that might be interested. He said that sounded like a great idea, and proposed an empty classroom that I could use. He said he would like to have at least two weeks notice before the next quarter to announce it. I would have done it, except at the same time the Junior department was unraveling my son's spiritual orientation. My son, of course, comes first. If I was single, I would do it as a mission project.
I should also note that a few years earlier I had been a firm believer in the mystical gifts of Ellen White. As an assistant leader in the Youth Department I even showed the "Keeper of the Flame" video series glorifying William Miller, Ellen White and early church history. The following year I was removed from that position because I was viewed as being to "conservative". It was really when I began studying Ellen White's writings more closely that I found irreconcilable discrepancies, as well as a very critical spirit that obviously did not come from the Holy Spirit's influence in her life. This troubled me deeply. As I compared what Ellen White wrote with the Bible I found that they promoted two totally different gospels.
The pastor is really a great pastor. He is in a difficult spot, as is any Seventh-day Adventist pastor that is trying to follow the Bible. Ultimately the only choice would be for him to actually leave, and join a Bible-based fellowship. This is the group that really needs our prayers and support. There are so many Adventist pastors that are caught in this dilemma. It is easy for us to say, "Just leave." It is quite another thing to just cut off our income, knowing full well that the theology we were taught just won't "fly" in any Christian fellowship.
Gilbert Jorgensen |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 450
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:33 am: | |
I agree Gilbert. Adventist Pastors who question the Adventist beliefs are in a very hard place. They lose their livelihood and careers and for some of them years of work. It's really "picking up their cross and carrying it" for them. |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 798
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:56 pm: | |
Speaking of passing out Dale Ratzlaff's books and SDA church's reactions, that reminded me of four years ago when I first ordered the Cultic Doctrine book, one year before actually leaving the SDA church. I had literally just ordered it and the next Sabbath we went to visit the SDA church we previously attended (not the one we were currently members of). That week, of all weeks, there was this full page flier in the bulletin warning people not to read Dale Ratzlaff's Cultic Doctrine book! I remember being so fearful that maybe God was warning me and maybe I shouldn't have ordered it! It didn't work though, I read it anyway and it only confirmed what I had been coming to realize over many years. |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 450
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:07 pm: | |
Raven,
That is funny! The more the leadership panics, the more the laity is going to wonder what the fuss is all about.
I find it to be a great conversation starter!
Gilbert Jorgensen |
Laurie
Registered user
Username: Laurie
Post Number: 47
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:26 pm: | |
This is going to sound really harsh... but... I'm going to say it anyway. I'll just sign my name as River at the bottom!
I have zero, zip, zilch sympathy for SDA pastors who know the truth and continue to hold their position and preach false doctrine. In fact, I think there will be a "special investigative judgement" just for them.
When I turned in my first letter to the church board to have my name removed the pastor grabbed me and pulled me into the sanctuary to try and change my mind. We talked for about 45 minutes. I flat out asked him if he believed in the IJ doctrine and he said "let me put it this way. I lost a great job opportunity once because the church board asked me if I would preach the IJ judgement from the pulpit and I told them I could not do that as I did not believe it." Was that supposed to make me feel better? To have him admit right to my face that he didn't believe it either and then have him beg me to reconsider my decision?
It made me sick. To watch him stand up there, week after week, collecting a paycheck from an organization that he does not truly support. To take the title of SDA Pastor and not support the essential doctrine of the church is unforgivable in my mind. He is the leader of the church, the sheperd of the flock, my mentor. Give me a break! To cash a check every payday drawn on an SDA account and not believe the doctrine of the church is wrong! He is preaching false doctrine, week after week. Even if he never mentions the IJ, he is a paid representative of the denomination and he is comitting fraud.
Sorry, but no sympathy from me.
Laurie |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 454
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:33 pm: | |
You make a good point Laurie. I wouldn't be able to do that, my conscience would bother me. I would have to get out and find another career even if it is painful financially if I were in that situation. |
Sara
Registered user
Username: Sara
Post Number: 24
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 2:59 pm: | |
Gail, you comments on Jesus'teaching in the temple, in calling out the pharisees, brings to mind last Sunday's sermon.
It was on the "cleansing of the temple" in Mark 11. My pastor had read something by "Wright" a greek scholor, and Wright suggested the heading would be better represented by the "destruction of the temple".
Here is the example. Your kids go into their bedrooms. The overturn dressers and pull stuff off of tables, throw things on the floor all over the room etc. DO you walk in and say, "Oh look, you cleansed your room!" Of course not. You look in and say, "who destroyed this room!
He sees this passage as more of prophetic type act, the coming complete destruction of the temple, in the flesh of Jesus, in the death of leagalism, and the destruction of the idea of reliance on jewish heritage and tradition to save.
Jesus declared his house would be a house of prayer for all nations. Not just a single building in Jerusalem. He was beginning the destruction of the old temple worship with his own earthly ministry, calling out the pharisees.
Not sure if this makes sense to anyone else, Im not the best at getting all the analogies. This was just one of those profound things for me. I felt that check in the spirit that lets me know there is something deep here. I'm still pondering the implications.
Here is the passage from Mark 11.
Jesus Clears the Temple...........
15On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written:
" 'My house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations'[c]? But you have made it 'a den of robbers.'[d]"
The "den of robbers" statment can also be interpreted on many levels.
Sara |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6384
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 3:23 pm: | |
Sara, very interesting insights re: the cleansing of the temple. Thanks so much for sharing them. Wow—it really is profound to think of that event as a foreshadowing and even as the preliminary moves that culminated in Jesus' dismantling the ritual services and becoming our all-in-all. He destroyed both the corruption of the old system as well as the original shadows. He really did "destroy" or "dismantle" the temple!
Colleen |
Larry
Registered user
Username: Larry
Post Number: 41
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 5:53 pm: | |
Here in the Northwest the White Estate puts on a seemingly annual ellen white summit where they warn people NOT to visit the "hate sites" on the web. (this is in reference to Joyfulheart's Wednesday, July 25, 2007 post)
This is yet another example of deception at work in that organization. Sites like www.ellenwhite.org have nothing to do with hating sda's, but merely expose the lies taught within that denomination.
There has been a thread of deception in that body ever since Miller & the 1843 DECEPTION. For them, it is a policy of "why change what works?" and this is the newest outplaying of that deception. (Never allow an sda to call 1843-44 a disappointment without first pointing out that it originally started out as a deception.)
I really doubt that there is a true hate-site involving sda's. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 4042
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 6:14 pm: | |
I cannot say I have no sympathy with the pastors who do not believe all SDA beliefs and still stay pastors. I just pray for them as they will have to answer to God for what they do.
Just my take on the subject.
Diana |
Marysroses
Registered user
Username: Marysroses
Post Number: 108
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 7:35 pm: | |
As far as not bleieving SDA beliefs but staying SDA anyway....
I think my mother's latest attempt at 'persuasion' fits in perfectly right here......
"You don't have to believe anything you don't want too, just get baptized again"
ARRRRRRRRRRRRGH!
Does she really, I mean REALLY NOW, think her church would accept a rosary totin' papist 'as is'?????????
as if i'd consider such weirdness anyway....
*rolling eyes*
MarysRoses |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6389
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 8:21 pm: | |
Too funny, MarysRoses--probably because it's so true!
Colleen |
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