| Author | Message | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1165 Registered: 4-2000  |
This afternoon I was researching the Hebrew word "Shabbat" online. Also, I have a minister friend who holds a Master's Degree in Old Testament Studies. This combination of information is most helpful when researching complex topics. Here is what I found online:
Please notice that our Jewish friends are telling us very clearly that the Sabbath is a ritual or ceremonial observance. The weekly, festal Sabbath is NOT a moral law like the other nine commandments in the Decalogue are. Moreover, when Moses reiterated the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy 5, he gave another reason for observing the Sabbath; namely, deliverance from slavery in Egypt. This makes the weekly Sabbath very Jewish. The following are some unique rabbinic, Sabbath rules:
Obviously, some of these rabbinic rules differ greatly with the SDA version of Sabbath observance. Furthermore, I discovered that the rabbinic view of Sabbath observance requires not merely a prohibition against kindling a fire on Sabbath, but also not to extinguish a fire on Sabbath. Thus, we learn the reason why devout Jews cannot turn off a light bulb (on Sabbath) that was left on inadvertently. With this reasoning, if your car engine is not turned off before sunset for some reason, you must keep running the engine until it stops due to lack of fuel or some other reason. I wonder what car manufacturers and mechanics would think of that! You can violate the Sabbath whenever life is at stake. Thus, one could argue that if your house is on fire and no life is at stake, you should just leave it burning. Additionally, with the same odd reasoning, one could simply go down the street and warn all his Jewish neighbors of the impending fire and all the houses in the neighborhood would be consumed on the Jewish Sabbath. Indeed, legalism never makes sense nor is consistent. Strictly speaking, one could feasibly with left without a car and/or house due to the Sabbath. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6346 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dennis, so interesting! Thank you for the facts and the humor, again. I used to wonder, as an Adventist, why Adventists didn't ask more questions of Jews re: the Sabbath and other OT observances. It seemed that if they wanted to really understand the Sabbath, the Jews would be the ones to know. (Of course, the excuse would be that Jews believed the rabbinic midrash concerning Sabbath, not the "true" new testament version of Sabbath as Jesus came to reveal it.) Sigh. It was all so confusing! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4014 Registered: 3-2004  |
I just went to the website and read it. All I am going to say is Thank You God for taking me out of adventism. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1103 Registered: 9-2006  |
It seems that the Ten commandments were delivered to the Children of Israel in preparation for the statutes and judgments to follow. I have often wondered why the Lord lumped the Sabbath day of rest in with the other nine moral commandments or vise versa, it seems out of place somehow. As Dennis said “Please notice that our Jewish friends are telling us very clearly that the Sabbath is a ritual or ceremonial observance. And yet it is in among nine moral commandments or directives. As I thought about Dennis’s article, these thought came to mind, God sat Israel aside as a nation unto himself, a unique nation until and through which the Messiah would come. In thinking about the nine moral commands, it is unreasonable to think that man did not have a moral conscience before he gave these moral commands. To say this would be to say that man was made without a moral conscience and we know he had a conscience because Adam and Eve hid themselves after disobeying God. These nine moral commands only re-enforce what the conscience already tells us. That it is wrong to steal, kill and destroy, one doesn’t even have to be aware of these nine moral written directives to know it is wrong to steal from ones neighbor. In Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Deuteronomy 4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it. Deuteronomy 4:13 makes it plain that the Ten Commandments is the Covenant he made with Israel. Could we say that these nine moral directives are the conscience written in stone? But why the Sabbath rest in there? I can only surmise that through this people who were to be set aside and act morally and through which the messiah would come and be our true Sabbath of rest, rest from our own works, rest in him. So to me it really then is not so surprising that the Sabbath would be part of these nine other moral directives for Israel, I think that it was given as part of the covenant that sat Israel aside as a nation unto God through which the messiah would come to all men. God pinned his moral directives to show us the need for messiah and for a Sabbath rest from our works. Man must have rest spiritually as well as physically or the cries of the slaves will go up to God who made man. The cries of the slaves go on today but we can find freedom and rest in messiah. Actually one might look at it this way, the Ten Commandments God gave to Israel is a perfect picture, it states the problem and solution in the Ten “words” the moral directives we have broken and the Sabbath of rest from our own works through Christ the messiah. Ramone painted a picture in which, on one side was the ten C’s and on the other a man with his head and hands in the stocks. An Adventist will try to move heaven and earth to try to uphold the one Sabbath command with the nine shattered at his feet, with a stricken conscience which cannot find rest, with his head and hands in the stocks he gazes at the Horizons. He has went back to Egypt to make brick without straw because he savors the leaks and the Garlic’s of Egypt. As Dennis so aptly put it the Adventist Sabbath does not resemble much the rabbinic Sabbath. Basically it boils down to not even being able to do that right and the problem demands a solution. Adventism is the basic problem and Jesus has the solution. On the front of this web site there is some ones story titled “We leave Egypt tonight” or something to that effect. An apt title indeed. So in final analysis then the Sabbath fits right in with the other nine. One just has to see it in order to see how it fits in, the problem and the solution is all there but it speaks of another day. I really don’t know how theologically correct this would seem to the theologically educated but it is the best I can do with it. River | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 929 Registered: 10-2002  |
Shabbat shalom, Shabbat shalom Yeshua ha Moshiach, You have brought us home! | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1167 Registered: 4-2000 |
River, Since everyone is born into this world as a rebel against God, we have a "seared" and "twisted" conscience without the miracle of regeneration. Thus, God gives his moral directives to both the rebel and the saint. One of the uses for moral law is to restrict evil in our society. The sheer fear of criminal penalties helps control wickedness in our world. Admittedly, of course, the rebel will never even come close to reflecting God's will as completely as the saint. Remember, we cannot choose what we do not desire. Man's fall is great. It is so great that only the effectual grace of God working in our hearts can bring us to faith.
Dennis Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4016 Registered: 3-2004 |
quote: It is not that Adam ate sour grapes and our teeth are set on edge. The biblical teaching is that in Adam we all are the sour grapes. That is why our teeth on set on edge. [Excerpt from Dr. R. C. Sproul, CHOSEN BY GOD, p. 98] Oh Dennis, thank you for bringing that to our attention. We are the sour grapes. What an awesome God we have. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1105 Registered: 9-2006 |
Sorry Dennis, I don't want to pull your thread off subject, its just that I have been fascinated with why the Sabbath is in with the nine moral directives. You folks go right ahead with your thoughts on Dennis's subject, we have beat the moral directive bushes before. Anyway back to your subject Dennis, I went to the website you referred to and it is most interesting of what one could or could not do on Sabbath. I wonder if theoretically a woman could undo braids as this might be considered undoing more than two threads. We wake up on Saturday morning and find the neighbors cattle herd eating the summer corn crop, would we be able to run the cattle out of the corn? Here is an excerpt # Recitation of Havdalah, or "separation," at the conclusion on Saturday night (over a cup of wine, and with the use of fragrant spices and a candle) # Enjoying Shabbat (Oneg Shabbat). This can include activities such as eating tasty food, resting, or engaging in intimate relations with one's spouse. Heh Heh. Does that resemble Adventist Sabbath? Or would we find that "Sour grapes" to the Adventist? River (Message edited by river on July 21, 2007) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4017 Registered: 3-2004 |
According to EGW, married couples were not to have intimate relations on the sabbath, as I remember it. Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1965 Registered: 10-2004  |
The official Adventist website forbids marriage on sabbath (1 Timothy 4). River, one of the reasons the sabbath was in the tables of the covenant (the Ten Words) is because it was the sign of the covenant (see Exodus 31:12-18). Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 21, 2007) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1107 Registered: 9-2006 |
Oh! Thanks for those scripture Jeremy, went and read them and now I see it. Seems my eyes are opened more on the covenants every day or so. Jesus being my Sabbath of rest is no new thing to me, but the study of the old covenant just is never stressed in the churches I have attended. Its great to study the old covenant though because it helps me to understand the new covenant in an even deeper and more meaningful way I think. Actually the Sabbath is never discussed in these churches I figured out who my Sabbath of rest was just in private Bible study and meditation on his word. I am beginning to feel like discussion of the Sabbath is old hat now from hanging out with you guys,but it never gets much attention outside of here and of course my Adventist friends wishing me a Happy Sabbath which only bugs me. River | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1168 Registered: 4-2000 |
River, The Fourth Commandment (in Hebrew) is in the exact center of the Decalogue because it was the seal of the Mosaic Covenant. Since the Decalogue is a basic summary of the whole Torah (613 laws), it should not surprise anyone that it would need to have a ceremonial aspect to it. The non-Decalogical laws in the Torah (civil, ritual, and moral) are all mixed together as well. To show that the weekly Sabbath is ceremonial, not moral in nature, is very easy to do as follows: (1) Double sacrificing requirements on the Sabbath. (2) Shewbread replacement every Sabbath. (3) Ritual laws like circumcision always trumped the Sabbath if on the eighth day. (4) The reiterated version of the Ten Commandments (Deut.5) reveals that another reason for the Sabbath is deliverance from bondage in Egypt (this makes the Sabbath very Jewish). (5) Listed as one of the seven festal convocations given to the "sons of Israel" in Leviticus 23. (6) Rabbinical, Jewish history verifies the weekly Sabbath as a ritual law. (7) Jesus associated the festal Sabbath with the ritual shewbread and circumcision (John 7:22,23; Matt.12:3-5). (8) Paul proclaimed the Jewish Sabbath as a festal shadow pointing to Jesus (Col. 2:16,17). (9) Jesus broke the Sabbath (John 5:18). He certainly would not break a holy, moral law. (10) "There remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God" (see Heb. 4:1-10). This reveals the inadequacy of the Sabbath shadow. We now rest in Jesus, our True Sabbath Rest (Matt. 11:28-30). Unlike ceremonial laws, moral laws are NEVER trumped due to acts of charity, mercy, or necessity (this includes the nine commandments reiterated in the NT--some several times plus Jesus expanded some of them to give them even greater weight and relevence for godly living). When Jesus expanded various moral directives, He did not delete the basic law itself (i.e., murder is still murder, stealing is still stealing, honoring parents is still honoring parents, covetousness is still covetousness, etc.) Notice also that some moral aspects of the Noahic Covenant are reiterated in the Old Covenant (i.e., murder). Also, the Adamic Covenant commandment to "be fruitful and multiply" is reiterated in the Noahic Covenant (Gen. 9). There is a solid history of commonality, transference, and reiteration in the covenants throughout redemptive history. Yes, there are important distinctives in the covenants, but we must not overlook the commonalities as well. In summary, both the Jewish sabbath and the Jewish tithe laws require the Levitical system to be fully in place since they are clearly ceremonial in nature. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 166 Registered: 10-2005 |
yep jeremy my hubby and I married in SDA church,it was on Friday night before sundown | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 34 Registered: 5-2007 |
Could somebody give a link to an official sda website that forbids saturday marriages? This would help immensely in an argument I have been having with a sibling. Forbidding marriage is forbidding marriage, and this particular instance also involves TIME, something the sda denomination has lied about for 160+ years. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1968 Registered: 10-2004 |
Larry, here is the quote from the official adventist.org website:
And at the end of that document (which is entitled "Guidelines for Sabbath Observance") it says: "The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists Executive Committee at the General Conference Session in Indianapolis, Indiana, on July 9, 1990, voted to acknowledge receipt of the above document on Sabbath observance." Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 22, 2007) | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 36 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thank you Jeremy! I started reading that website and got pretty theologically grossed out. I see they use egw to make their sabbath points as well. Big suprise! I can surmise that sda's know nothing of the significance of the "grain incident" in Matthew or the "bedroll incident". One involved not having done all the food preparation for Saturday on Friday, the other involved NOT telling the healed man to come back after sundown and getting his things, but rather to "pick up your bedroll and walk". This in a culture who would follow Moses Law and stone you for picking up a few sticks for a fire on Saturday! What is the significance of this: "The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists Executive Committee at the General Conference Session in Indianapolis, Indiana, on July 9, 1990, voted to acknowledge receipt of the above document on Sabbath observance." Is it that a group of committee members can pick and choose for you what you do on the sabbath? Highest authority on earth, etc etc? (Message edited by Larry on July 22, 2007) | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 406 Registered: 5-2007 |
What they will do for their Sabbath "idol". And Adventist told me that those who aren't used to "keeping" the Sabbath would be miserable in Heaven because that's all Heaven will be. I tried to explain but there won't be any Sabbath in Heaven, there's no time, no day, no night. | ||
| Lucybugg Registered user Username: Lucybugg Post Number: 46 Registered: 2-2007 |
Who could be miserable in heaven?? | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 411 Registered: 5-2007 |
I agree but that's what I was told by an Adventist that people who aren't used to keeping the Sabbath will be miserable in Heaven. | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 5 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dennis, Your post reinforced how utterly trivial is Adventist Sabbath-keeping. They have watered it down to make it more palatable. They practice Sabbath-Lite so it won't feel legalistic. The GC uses language like, "...weddings involve considerable work...weddings on the Sabbath should be discouraged." Discouraged? How nice of them. There is no penalty quite as discouraging as a good public stoning. If they really understood the awe-ful weight of the Sabbath commands, they might be driven to seek a non-trivial, true rest. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6370 Registered: 12-2003 |
So true, Martin. As I look back on being Adventist, I have a sense of being in a continuous state of denial, or "splitting", or some sort of "altered reality" where the gravity of truth and what was real never actually sank in. My mind was the field of action; if I could rationalize Sabbath/Adventism and balance my own pertinent texts to my own satisfaction, I was OK. God, of course, would understand I had done my best and would make up for what I couldn't manage. Great line, Martin...There is no penalty quite as discouraging as a good public stoning. Colleen |
