| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 394 Registered: 11-2005 |
From the book A SKETCH OF THE CHRISTIAN EXPERIENCE AND VIEWS OF ELLEN G. WHITE http://www.earlysda.com/christexp/christian-experiences.html
Interesting. Here she states that God showed her on March 24, 1849 that: 1. "commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, relating to the shut door, could not be separated" 2. "time for ... God's people to be tried on the Sabbath truth, was ... when ... the mediation of Jesus was finished in the Holy Place of the Sanctuary in 1844." 2. Door to the Holy Place shut in 1844 3. Door to the Holy Place opened in 1844 4. "I saw that ... since Jesus has opened the door in the Most Holy Place ... God's people ... are being tested on the Sabbath question." 5. "I saw that the present test on the Sabbath could not come until the mediation of Jesus in the Holy Place was finished, and he had passed within the second vail." 6. "Christians who fell asleep before the door was opened in the Most Holy, when the midnight cry was finished, at the seventh month 1844, and had not kept the true Sabbath, now rest in hope for they had not the light, and the test on the Sabbath, which we now have since that door was opened." 7. "Because so many good Christians have fallen asleep in the triumphs of faith, and have not kept the true Sabbath, they were doubting about it being a test for us now." 8. "Satan is now using every device in this sealing time, to keep the minds of God's people from the present truth" 9. "I saw that Satan was working through agents in a number of ways. He was at work through ministers who have rejected the (1844) truth, and are given over to strong delusions to believe a lie, that they might be damned." 10. "The reformations that were shown me, were not reformations from error to truth. My accompanying angel bade me look for the travail of soul for sinners as used to be. I looked, but could not see it; for the time for their salvation is past." Any Adventist who states that the Sabbath (and Sunday) have NOT been a "test" since 1844 are not familiar with what Ellen White was "shown" in 1849. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1946 Registered: 10-2004  |
So what about those "good Christians" who died AFTER 1844 and did not keep the "sabbath," such as William Miller who EGW said was saved (she said the angels were guarding his "precious dust"!)??? Also, Ellen herself failed the test. She did not "keep" the "sabbath" until a long time after October 22, 1844! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 17, 2007) | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 377 Registered: 5-2007 |
I noticed this was another vision EGW had in Topsham, Maine. I drove by there when I was on vacation last month and when I saw the Topsham exit on I-95 all I could think about was EGW and some of the "visions" she had there and it really creeped me out. Maybe it's because I still haven't been out of Adventism that long and I don't mean to offend anyone from Maine it is a beautiful state, but it was the one part of my vacation I didn't enjoy, Knowing that's where EGW had some of her most outrageous idea and got her start just creeped me out to the point I was glad when I crossed into New Hampshire! | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 30 Registered: 5-2007 |
I enjoy picking apart these lying visions, almost as much as you guys! (somebody has to do it) This counterfeit prophet sees the Savior passing through a physical, cloth veil into the Most Holy, but Hebrews 10:20 states that His flesh is the veil, now. Contrary to this fake prophets assertion that the commandments (ten) were to shine out starting in 1844, Deuteronomy 6:25 states that it was Isreals righteousness to keep Gods commandments, in contrast to righteousness by faith in the New Testament (new covenant) described after the cross. Thus keeping the 10 commandments is no longer righteousness, so nobody can brag of their works! It is anti-faith to keep the 10 commandments in order to work you way to salvation. So NO, it is not time for Gods 10 commandments to "shine out". This is merely another Adventist time-lie because they are time-cursed. They are 180 degrees out of phase with truth! How does the mediation of Jesus finish, according to this lying vision, if He ever lives to intercede for us? (Hebrews 7:25) SDA's have deliberately departed from the intent and meaning of Hebrews to their own detriment. I also see the irony of the Whites' use of Roman numerals when citing bible verses. Pretty funny, when considering out anti-Romish their outlook is. Christians of old have always had the "light" of the 10 commandments, but they have acknowledged that the Sabbath commandment pointed forward to something you could not do a work for: The rest of not working for your own salvation in Lord Jesus, as described at least in Hebrews 4. Yet another detrimental turn of theology for adventists. "...so many good Christians have fallen asleep in the triumphs of faith, and have not kept the true Sabbath" -- only an evil prophet, out of phase by 180 degrees regarding the truth, could say such a thing. In other words, her statement is another bald-face lie. The true sabbath after the cross was Jesus doing the work for our salvation, not us. egw's statement that Christians falling asleep in the triumphs of faith is almost comical, if it were not so deadly. Of course it is faith, you twit for a prophet! (am I sounding too juvenile now?) "The enemies of the present truth..." -- again she is 180 degrees out of phase with truth. She and her band of saints assert they have truth, including Millers prophecies, when actually they have spun multiple lies to protect their egos & pride from dealing with their error in a biblical manner. She lastly claims that the ark in heaven still contains the tables of stone. Why would God keep an old agreement (covenant) around that flies in the face of what His Son is doing to save sinners? That particular bit of their theology just does not make sense. Another twist on this is that the original commandments that God handed Moses where cut from his sapphire-blue throne, Exodus 24:10. The second set were hewn by Moses from ordinary rock. I would think that the copy in heaven would also be cut from the blue sapphire, but Ellen never does make mention of that remarkable fact! (even though she "saw" it all in vision) And Gilbert, your point number 10 "the time for their salvation is past" -- That had to be edited out eventually, because it creates a probationary end and/or judgement between the 2nd and 3rd angels messages. Remember that Ellen states that Millers message was the first and second angels messages. Nowhere in Revelation can you find such a concept, so it had to go, along with it being part of their shut door theory. So it had to be dropped for more reasons than one. Jeremy, I have been quite amused at Millers being saved, in spite of him rejecting the sabbath. It teaches that God is not fair, God will save Miller, but He will not save you if you do not keep the physical sabbath. And the angels watching the precious dust statement is a spin-off of Mormonism. Mormons believe that all the molecules and atoms that had comprised a person are necessary at the resurrection, so having angels guarding your dust is a very good thing! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1947 Registered: 10-2004 |
Also, Miller rejected the 1843/1844 "messages"--which was supposed to make a person lost, according to EGW! Jeremy | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 398 Registered: 11-2005 |
Its also interesting how Adventists try to tie Rev 3:10 with Rev 13:13-17. The first, the church of Philadelphia, experiences the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world. The second talks about the one crisis in the book of Revelation that affects the entire world and that is the crisis precipitated by the beast from the earth. Adventists logically teach that these two set of scripture refer to the same event -- which it appears that they do. It should be noted that the position of the SDA pioneers on the placing of the Philadelphian message locate it during the Second Advent movement, including the Seventh Month movement, and up to the Albany Conference in 1845. Many SDA pioneers, including Bates, Edson, etc located the beginning of the Laodicean period at the Albany conference, chaired by William Miller, where all new theories on the Disappointment of 1844 were rejected. (Damsteegt, 1977, pp.148, 134) Ellen White also places it in the future. "Just before us is 'the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth'. Revelation 3.10." (White, 1888,560 Wilcox does too. "This entire period is doubtless covered by the term ‘the Hour of Temptation’ in Rev 3:10. The general phrase, ‘the time of trouble’ is frequently in the Spirit of Prophecy in reference to both the ‘Short Time of Trouble’ and the ‘Great Time of Trouble,’ as they are often called." (Wilcox, 1966, p.112) S.D.A. historicists are in an inescapable dilemma: The Revelator puts the final and universal time of trouble in the "Philadelphian" period; S.D.A historicism has located this time of testing in the "Laodicean" period; yet according to our own defense, each promise is appropriate only to its own period and cannot be applied to another period. Either the time of testing occurred between the late 1700's and 1844 A.D. or the S.D.A. historicist's application of the seven epistles to seven consecutive periods of time has "no valid basis" since the messages of Philadelphia and Laodicea are not "specifically applicable to the Christian church" at the appropriate time in history. A further complication for a historicist's approach to the epistles is the existence of the Laodicean message after the Philadelphian message. Even if the universal time of testing is acknowledged as being said to occur during the "Philadelphian" period, the problems are made even more troublesome. It is generally conceded among S.D.A. historicists that when the time of testing over the mark of the beast is finished, probation for mankind generally is closed (cf. Rev 14:9-11): man's response to God's last warning message has been made, and every case is decided for life or for death. If then, in S.D.A. historicist's thinking, each "church" period is consecutive and probation for humankind finishes when "the time of testing which occurs during the "Philadelphian" period is finished, how come there is another period ("Laodicean") which still offers the opportunity for repentance (cf Revelation 3:18-20)? Although SDA’s may want to say that these things have not occurred yet, how can the Christians in the late 18th century to early 19th century be tested at all on these matters unless these events have developed? It would be interesting to read an explanation how, even though these events have not yet occurred but rather will occur in the future, they have been a testing issue for Christians for over 200 years. Robert Olson noted, "Ellen White asserts positively, however, that any new interpretations of Scripture, if correct, will be in harmony with our distinctive doctrines. She declares, “One will arise, and still another, with new light, which contradicts the light that God has given under the demonstration of His Holy Spirit….We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith.”" – Selected Messages, book 1, p. 161 (Olson, 1981, p.44.) According to this statement, there is no possibility for the church to change its views on this matter. According to this statement, the SDA position will never be shown to be incorrect in regard to its exposition of those texts it uses to support its “special points of faith.” Anachronistic or not, the current SDA historicist view on the book of Revelation must be the truth. So this means that according to Adventist logic the future Time of Trouble occurred prior to 1845 -- the end of the Philadelphian time period. Ellen White wrote “Not till after the great apostasy, and the long period of reign of the ‘man of sin,’ can we look for the advent of our Lord. This period ended in 1798. The coming of Christ could not take place before the time” (The Great Controversy between Christ and Satan, p.356). To see the time periods assigned by Adventists to the various churches of Revelation refer to the SDA Bible Commentary. ----------------- The previous observations are from one of Frank Basten's excellent papers at http://www.2300days.com/Revelation3_10.html His website at http://www.2300days.com/ is a scholarly motherlode of irrefutable information on the twisted logic used by Adventist apologists. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 33 Registered: 6-2007 |
That quote from EGW was one of the quotes I showed my mom when she was so angry with me for leaving the SDA church. I thought there was no way she could explain that one away. She simply stated that she did not care what EGW said, the 10 commandments were written with the finger of God and I had better obey. It's pointless and futile to try to convince most adventists. When I requested my membership withdrawn from the SDA church (for the 1st time, it took over 2 yrs) I still believed in the 7th day sabbath. When I found this quote it was the beginning of the end for my sabbath keeping. Laurie | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 400 Registered: 11-2005 |
Most Adventists are like Mormons, only even more deceived. Mormons know that their theology came from Joseph Smith. Adventists are told by leadership that their theology comes from the Bible, when in reality a close examination (such as done above) would show that it is actually based on Ellen White. With 6-1/2' of EGW books to read, it is no wonder that they don't know what the Bible says! Or even for that matter, Ellen White! Even the adult Sabbath School Quarterly has a full page ad inside the front cover admonishing users to "Let Ellen White Help You Study". It is a sad day indeed when the quarterly doesn't actually use the Bible to help you study! Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 381 Registered: 5-2007 |
That is so true Gilbert. The Adventists I know, including my dear wife really believe they follow the Bible more closely than anyone. I have tried to tell her, no, I think the Seventh Day Baptist Church is closer(in fact all the Protestant Churches, Orthodox Church and even the RCC follow the Bible more closely than the SDA church). One of the things I really love about the SDB church is they don't even have a Sabbath School quarterly, they just go straight from the Bible! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1950 Registered: 10-2004 |
"The first, the church of Philadelphia, experiences the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world." Actually, Revelation 3:10 says: "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." (Revelation 3:10 NASB.) So, actually, the church in Philadelphia does not experience the hour of testing--they are kept from it! Jeremy | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 402 Registered: 11-2005 |
Jeremy, You are right. I was too hasty in my statement. Part of the point that I was making was that to be strictly correct to the Adventist historicist’s interpretation, this time of testing which is coming could only have come during the time of the Philadelphian church, and so by the time we get to the Laodicean period, the global time of testing has occurred and now we can refer to it as “the time of testing that came (past tense) on all the world” to test them all. That should really give Adventists whiplash! Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6321 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, you asked a very astute question a short time back about why Adventists don't talk much about the rapture or prophecy. This thread probably helps explain our distance from this subject better than anything else could! We grew up with cut-and-paste eschatology, all leading to the inevitable conclusion that we will most likely be hunted and killed IF we just happen to be faithful and manage to stay loyal to the Sabbath. It was confusing and terrifying. It is just amazing to be able to begin to figure out the subtle but deep errors we were taught, as Gilbert's and Larry's and Jeremy's quotes and analyses demonstrate. Colleen | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2007 |
Reb, When we attended the SDB church in Portland, Oregon the Sabbath School classes used a quarterly published by the SDB denomination! I took note of that this year. Are you sure your church cannot get them? | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 443 Registered: 5-2007 |
I don't know. Maybe they prefer not to use them. The SDB is not like SDA where every church is "cookie cutter" standardised. I've only been going there a few months so I don't know exactly why they don't have a quarterly, I get the impression that particular SDB church prefers going striaght from the Bible and I actually like that. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 441 Registered: 11-2005 |
The SDB Adult Quarterly is called the Helping Hand. You can access it at http://educatingchristians.org/Publications/HelpingHand The SDB children's weekly paper is the Sabbath Visitor. When I attended the Seventh-day Adventist church I would print out the SDB Sabbath Visitor each week for him to do in church. The Adventist handouts were basically cartoonish junk that promoted Ellen White and Adventist beliefs. You can find it at http://educatingchristians.org/Publications/SabbathVisitor A nice comparison chart of SDB's vs SDA's can be found at http://www.washingtonsdb.org/a_comparison_of_seventh_day_bapt.htm Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 448 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thanks, Gilbert. Did you notice how the SDB Quarterly is 100% Bible based and focuses on the Gospel rather than Old Testamant stuff like SDA Quarterlies? One other difference: The SDB church started based on conviction regarding the Sabbath after Bible study. The SDA church started on error.(William Miller's 1844 date setting). Oh and the SDB beliefs on the Sabbath are much healthier than the SDA aren't they. SDBs don't consider the Sabbath as salvific or make an idol of it, it's basically a church day. You can see why I chose SDB at this point and also why my wife is reticent. The SDB belief about the Immortality of the soul and not observing the Levitical food laws are the 2 problems she has with it. But she is tolerating me going to SDB church now even though she is worried I might be "lost". I know this is partly why I decided to take a stand and go this week to SDB church like I planned. You were right, Gilbert and I realised that. If I go to SDA church because of choir this Sabbath I am sending a mixed signal and giving false hope. The SDB church has a choir maybe I should just join the choir there if I want to sing in choir. The differences in the SDB church from the SDA are EXACTLY the reason I am there and why I drive 50 miles one way to go there. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 444 Registered: 11-2005 |
Reb, You should consider getting a copy of the inexpensive booklet, "The Truth About SDA Truth" by Dale Ratzlaff. See http://www.ratzlaf.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1001719106 It has a section on the many problems with the SDA view on soul sleep that is the best I have seen. It points out a number of ludicrous and conflicting assumptions, many based on SDA quotations, that have to be made to even remotely support such a concept. This also a great, easy-to-read, booklet to pass out to SDA friends, and non-SDA pastors (who usually have no idea what Adventism really teaches). I got a whole box of them to pass out. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 451 Registered: 5-2007 |
Maybe I should get it on Audio CD so my wife could hear it. Or do you think it would "freak her out?" I know she would refuse to read the booklet and might even trash it, but IF I played the CD in the car? Or maybe I better not do that right now? (Message edited by Reb on July 25, 2007) | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 445 Registered: 11-2005 |
Reb, Here is another quote to ponder:
http://www.earlysda.com/gc/gc_chap41.html So as long as even a single cell of the body is left, all the "all the sense of suffering" is still there? Really? Where does the Bible teach this? Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 446 Registered: 11-2005 |
And which of these visions is correct? http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw59.htm Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 447 Registered: 11-2005 |
Reb, I would suggest that you get the booklet for yourself so that you know the issues. Then when the time is right bring them up in bite-sized pieces. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 448 Registered: 11-2005 |
Another excellent (non-offensive, non-confrontational) book is "Discovering the New Covenant—why I am no longer a Seventh-day Adventist" written by a former Seventh-day Adventist pastor. I would feel comfortable giving this book to anyone -- even a died-in-the-wool historic Adventist. It is not so much to try to convert them, as to share why I interpret the Bible the way I do. It is beautiful written with a true spirit of Christian love. http://www.ratzlaf.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1092258299 Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 452 Registered: 5-2007 |
I've actually read it on line. I downloaded and printed it and stashed it away in the glove compartment of one of my cars(the one my wife never drives). But then a hardcore SDA relative was visited and needed to use that car so I had to trash the copy or risk getting "busted". If word got back to relatives in Indonesia about my leaving Adventism I would truly be the "black sheep" of the family. I do not think some my in-Laws would love me the same after finding this out. Maybe I am wrong and I hope I am, but what I know of Indonesian Adventists is they are generally much more conservative than American Adventists, they tend to be "historical" Adventists and really believe in EGW. Mainly because of my influence and becoming Americanized from almost a quarter of a century of living in the US, my wife became much more liberal of an Adventist than the rest of her side of the family. She is tolerating my switch to the SDB but I think(and again I hope I'm wrong)much of the rest of her side of the family wouldn't be so tolerant and my worry isn't so much for me as that they would "blame" her in some way. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 449 Registered: 11-2005 |
Reb, Hold your head high! Black sheep are extremely important, and of much greater value than white sheep. Here in Utah, ranchers run large flocks with thousands of sheep, and move them between various grazing areas on federal property. It is quite impressive to see them moving across a hillside, or down country roads, along with a couple of riders on horseback and a few herding dogs. It is a beautiful sight, indeed. And what about the black sheep? They put in one black sheep with every 99 white sheep, and use them to count how many sheep they have in one place. Don't every underestimate the importance of the black sheep! Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 453 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thanks, Gilbert. I never thought of it that way. So I am proud the be the "black sheep". Maybe the Lord will use this "black sheep" to lead people out of Adventism? Sometimes I feel like a have a burden on my heart to share the Gospel with Adventists and tell them about an alternative(for those who don't want to give up the Sabbath) in the SDB church that has the Gospel message and a much healthier view on the Sabbath. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 451 Registered: 11-2005 |
Reb, Just remember - it's one black sheep for every 99 white sheep. We all have an important job to do! <grin> Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6386 Registered: 12-2003 |
And Reb, a great many of us are not as "loved" by our families when we leave. But Jesus redefined "family" when he said, "Who are my mother and my brothers? Those who do the will of my Father are my mother and my brothers and my sisters." (see Mt 12:49) He is faithful; Jesus gives us far more than we lose when we follow Him! Colleen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 457 Registered: 5-2007 |
True, Colleeen. |
