| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 150 Registered: 5-2007 |
I felt safe and secure in the SDA even when I was not a good SDA. I felt at least, even if I did not get it, "they" (The church) collectively did. They claimed authority and finality about doctrine. I had a stable and handy frame of reference. It was Authority. I had the same impressions in my childhood about the Catholic Church. In some ways, still do. Authority. And that is the problem. I guess I am looking for a conviction of authority in my church of choice. So far , I have not found it. To me , the typical protestant church is more like a group of people with a common view they practice rather than an authority to something far greater than themselves. When I see a church that is too small or overly reflective of the pastor, it lacks any sense of unity to a greater picture. It seems shallow. My point here is that I realize FAF cannot appoint a church to anyone because it is a matter of faith on a personal level. This subject gets back to the roots essay. Follow the roots from the 1st century. Perhaps this is why I am feeling I need a church with deep roots. | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 252 Registered: 1-2004  |
One positive aspect about authority is that when you acknowledge it and submit to it, you become more humble. Humility is seen as a very important thing, in the Bible. Jeremiah | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 33 Registered: 7-2007 |
I'm not sure if I know what you mean, but yes, the SDA church certainly had a lot of AUTHORITY. A person had to deny self a lot with it too - having to keep the Sabbath and read the labels of cans in the store (I did anyway) to make sure there wasn't any lard or anything in it and that made me feel that I was pretty "good." Now that I'm not an Adventist anymore, it seems so EASY to be a Christian. I'm learning to look entirely to Jesus for salvation rather than to a church with AUTHORITY. I've also been learning that it boils down to simply "flesh" versus "Spirit." We either "walk in the Spirit" Galatians 5:16 "...Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh." Or... we go by the "flesh" which results in death.(Gal. 5:21) Other texts talking about the "Spirit" are Ephesians 1:13,14 "...in Whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance..." and Romans 8:9 "...if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." It's wonderful to depend entirely upon Christ for our salvation and not to feel that our own "works" have anything to do with it. Even when I was an Adventist I knew that we are saved by grace through faith. I tried to avoid reading much of Ellen White though because there were so many many "works" that she would mention. I knew that when a person is a Christian they'll have the "fruits." It's just that Ellen White mentioned so MANY "fruits" that a person was supposed to have - not going to theaters, circuses or dances, not eating between meals, not eating cheese, "unclean" meats, pickles, butter, water with meals, guarding the edges of the Sabbath; etc. etc. that being a "Christian" became a heavy burden. I knew, even "before" that Jesus was the one Who saves us entirely. Now I'm learning that for real - if you know what I mean. Jesus is our AUTHORITY  Dianne | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 388 Registered: 11-2005 |
Jim, [I had a more detailed reply specifically addressing your thoughts, but then I somehow pressed the wrong key and lost it.] If I understand what you are saying, I think it is human nature to want someone else human to tell us what is right and wrong. We want someone else (or organization) to be our authority figure. My first reaction is that this is what Hebrews 3 and 4 is talking about. Jesus alone is to be our authority. Only by entering in to his Sabbath Rest can we experience that. As the narative explains, the Children of Israel had a priesthood and a set of Laws that carried all the authority they could ever ask for. And yet, they never entered into God's Rest. I am not trying to be trite, but I think if you read Hebrews 3 and 4 over a number of times it will all make sense. They wanted a way to earn their salvation. They refused to acknowledge that we it is only through total surrender and belief that we are saved. John 3:16 -------------------------------------------- In this way Adventists are in an interesting situation. They say that the final test IS the Sabbath -- and they are right. They are just confused about which Sabbath. They become really animated about the importance of the Sabbath. They mean, of course the 7th-day Sabbath. It would be interesting to agree totally with them on their initial statement, but then qualify it by telling them that they don't take it far enough. Like the Jews of old they would naturally wonder how they could give it any more attention than they already are. Here is why they are falling short. Let's look at the relationship between the various Sabbaths. 1. We have the resting of God at creation which is also referred to in Hebrews 4. God didn't go back to work on the 8th day. He was done. Finished. The Bible does not mention any evening and morning to the 7th day. It was a perfect world -- a heaven on earth. 2. Next we have the 7th day Sabbath being instituted in Exodus 20, and given specifically to the Children of Israel. This is how far Adventists have gotten. 3. We have special Sabbaths that occurred during the year. These emphasized particular unique truths that God wanted to share with the Jews. 4. We have the yearly Sabbath each seven years. 5. We have the year of Jubilee -- a very special Sabbath year that was supposed to occur every 50 years. Christ used this Jubilee language to refer to his mission -- freeing the captives, etc. 6. All these prior Sabbaths point forward to the ultimate Sabbath -- our Sabbath Rest in Christ as described in Hebrews 3 and 4. 7. Heaven will be a permanent Sabbath where there will be no day or night, and obviously no 7th day of the week. A day is as a thousand years. (Adventists may refer to Isaiah 66:23. This was a conditional promise to the Israelites. It includes New Moon Feasts, and describes dead bodies lying about -- something Adventists don't anticipate finding in heaven!) As you can see Seventh-day Adventists fall far short when it comes to the Sabbath. It will be the great test -- a Sabbath Rest in Christ, that is. When Seventh-day Adventists think they are way out front on the subject of the Sabbath, it would be interesting to really put them on the defensive by pointing out that they, too, are falling far short. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 678 Registered: 6-2006  |
Jim, what if you put your focus on worship and good Biblical teaching? Know what I mean? You're going there to worship Jesus, learn about him and spend time with him. A church shouldn't be there for affirmation, or "instructions" or authority. Those should be by products, of course in the freedom of Christ. There are so many great churches out there. You know I worship at a Lutheran church, which I love because the pastor is great and my family is there. Baptist churches are very consistant with Bible study, I've visited a Presbyterian church which I liked, Evangelical Free is where a lot of our friends here go. I don't know a whole lot about the charismatic churches (where they speak in tongues) but I've had friends from them who I respected for being "on fire" for the Lord. The Calvary churches are good strong churches as well. PRAY ABOUT IT!!! Ask the Lord to lead you to your new church family. Before you even go, pray "Thank you, Lord, for leading me to the church that YOU know is best for me." You may be totally surprised! Leigh Anne | ||
| Jdpascal Registered user Username: Jdpascal Post Number: 51 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hi Jim I often read and enjoy your posts about your journey to find a new fellowship. The questions issues and concerns that you and others bring up are, many times a wonder to me. What others might call church, I refer to as a fellowship because I no longer look to any Church, denomination or religious organization or person as a particular authority in religious matters. I believe, as you likely do to, that Peter, Paul or any of the other apostles did not derive their authority from any human but from Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Yes, they had the mutual approval of the message that they gave to others and the accountability to other believers but the roots of their faith were grounded in the knowledge of Jesus and the way in which His life, death, resurrection and ascension fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament and the Old Covenant. The results of the mutual accountability of the Apostles have been passed down to us in the form of the Bible as we now know it and Church history has given us many “documents” that we can compare to Scripture as we seek to find our way outside of Adventism. By allowing ourselves true accountability to God for our new path we can re-pave the streets of stone with the streets of gold in the promises of God. My main objective in “Church” is to worship, to find encouragement and accountability to the fundamentals of salvation and foster the fruit of the Spirit. We have found this thru a combination of circumstances, these being a good friendly church where the Gospel is preached like I’ve never heard in the 4 SDA locations where we’ve had membership or any of the dozens of other SDA locations we’ve visited and also in a wonderful friend and a small group where we participate for study, service and support. For me, at this time (ten years after), the risk is still too great in our minds that by “joining” we will seek out another toxic authoritarian religious manifesto and follow it. The church where we attend is small but not small enough to be excessively needy for help. We can and do participate where we feel called. I wish others could have as true friends for Christian support and accountability after leaving Adventism. Our experience as we have unfolded it before them has surprised them in many ways as they were exposed to the “public Adventism” at a previous community were they lived. I know that each former walks a different path and the urgency for a new religious undertaking appears in different ways so please take my experience for consideration only. Wishing God's blessings for you jd | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 361 Registered: 5-2007 |
Gilbert, you are so right about the true nature of the Sabbath. Interestingly enough, the pastor of the SDA church that I had attended(and still do sometimes with my wife) told me that Christ being our Sabbath rest is one of the "errors" "That group in Redlands" (as he likes to call FAF) is guilty of. So Adventists know of this concept but think it is wrong. Jim, I would agree with the suggestions Leigh Anne gave in her post above. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 389 Registered: 11-2005 |
Reb, Hebrews is a book many Adventists wish would go away. Of course they confer authority on the King James version which assumes that Paul is the author. I had one conservative Adventist evangelist tell me that Hebrews was written by Paul, and that it was "very unfortunate that Paul wrote some of the things that he did." In the next breath he referred to Peter's statement about Paul for support. In that way he could dismiss the entire book of Hebrews! Of course they also take read into it whatever they want. This same person assured me that "God's eternal Ten Commandments are written in the heart of a New Covenant Christian." Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 362 Registered: 5-2007 |
What did Peter say about Paul? | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 391 Registered: 11-2005 |
2 Peter 3:15-16 NIV
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| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 363 Registered: 5-2007 |
Peter is actually supporting Paul in this, so then Adventists twist this to throw Paul out when he disagrees with EGW? | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 94 Registered: 4-2007 |
YUP! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1943 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hehe. Yeah, Peter calls Paul's letters "Scripture" and wisdom from God! Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6305 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, back to your original question about authority. The church is subject to the authority of the Lord Jesus who is in charge of everything for the church, who is our Head, who is our protector and Savior and Defender. Our roots can't go deeper than into Him. All Christ-followers are rooted in the early apostolic church and in Jesus Himself. All of us, from the apostles on down, are the body of Christ. It is a completely new paradigm to begin to think of ourselves not as belonging to an identifying institution but only to the Lord Jesus. As His body, we also belong to each other—but we belong to each other in Him. All of us are connected to Him as our Head. Jim, this whole "thing" takes time. It is a new way of seeing, of being, of knowing reality. Truth affects every part of life, not just our theology. Reality is much bigger than we can see, and as the Lord Jesus opens our eyes and plants us deeply in Hinmself, we begin to see how insignificant so many of our contructs are. I find Ephesians 2:19-22 to be provocative and amazing: "Consequently, you [Gentiles] are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit." Notice all the "in him" phrases. Notice what happens in him. It is significant that none of those "in"-words was "through" or "to" or "for". Noticed that everything about us as the church occurs in him! Our roots go deeply into the Person and presence of God Himself! Colleen | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 590 Registered: 3-2001 |
while working out yesterday,there was nothing on TV, so I happened upon 3ABN where Doug Batchelor was taking about the identifying marks of God's true church. As Colleen said, it is a paradigm shift to see ourselves as part of the universal body of Christ and not under the authority of a particular denomination. The verse that comes to my mind that Doug B. ripped out of context was Ephesians 4:5, which says :
It as interesting listening to a sermon that I have heard so many times over the years, and to hear all of the doublespeak and the verses that were taken out of context in order to support the view that God is returning for a specific church (denomination). Jim, I encourage you to read all of Ephesians. It reveals the mystery of God's will, which was to make one new man out of two. Formerly, God had a special group of people (the Children of Israel). At that time, the Gentiles were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel, and foreigners to the covenants of promise. But in Christ, that wall of hostility has been destroyed. Now, we all have access to the Father through the same Spirit. I like what JD said about calling "local Churches" fellowships. That is exactly what they are. When you look at it that way, it takes the pressure off to find "the right church." Doug | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 155 Registered: 5-2007 |
All great insights. Thank You all. It was a luxury being right for 30 years. Being homeless (churchwise) is what causes this desire to fall back to safe mode. There is no familiar place now except SDA or Catholic. Neither of which have the landing lights on for me. The AOG is experimental. I think they are sincere folks and I like them, respect them. I am thinking I should not worry about belonging to anywhere specific, no memberships. I do not agree with the several doctrines they teach. But right now , I am there for my son and I consider God may want me there at least for now. I agree about the tongues. I do not rule it out, nor will I say it is from the evil one. I will let it stand on it's own. | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 591 Registered: 3-2001 |
Jim, just as an additional note. I have a good friend who seems to be in a similar place as you. He actually "left" Adventism at the same time I did, but it appears that he has tried to reconcile Adventism with his new understanding of grace. He has one foot firmly planted in each camp. Initially, his weight was more fully distributed in the "grace camp," but over the last year or so, I have seen it being shifted back to Adventism. Right now, he is not going to any church because none of them measure up to his standards of truth. For a while he even went back to attending an Adventist church. Even now, he periodically goes back so he can "pay his tithes." I don't even think he realizes how Adventist he has become again in his thinking. There is a strong spirit of deception in Adventism, and I think you have to be willing to cut the cord, otherwise it will continually pull you back. Its kind of like a boat that is tied to the shore. It can drift away, but only until it reaches the end of the rope, and when it does, it gets pulled back even closer to the shore again. We really do need to "cast out the bondwoman and her son." Doug (Message edited by Doug222 on July 17, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6311 Registered: 12-2003 |
So well said, Doug. Colleen | ||
| Busymom Registered user Username: Busymom Post Number: 54 Registered: 4-2004 |
Doug, I agree Adventism is a cord to be cut. As Diana said on another thread "Christianity is not a journey to be on by ourselves". For me trying to cut the cord is partly difficult because of pride. I wish when I had left I was more open to asking other Christians to pray for me and my confusion about what I believed. I still had the Adventist idea that I needed to pretend everything was okay or I would be judged. My family has been Adventist for generations. I had a lot of spiritual pride as an Adventist. When I heard people make fun of the Baptists because they thought they could do anything and still be saved (i.e. drink a beer) it made me feel smug. I visited the Baptist church in town this last Sunday. The sermon was on Ephesians and on God's love. It is embarrassing to admit how wrong I was about everything. The pastor and his wife at this church prayed for me, and it is the first time in a long time that I have felt really peaceful about finding a church. I am not sure if this is the right church for me or not, but it sure felt like home. I hope I have cut the cord for good this time. When my son got sick at school 2 yrs. ago(? air quality issues at the public school) I ended up sending him back to the local Adventist school. After one year there he ended up with stomach problems which turned out to be stress related. The Adventist teacher yelled at the students and really pushed them academically. I don't think the confusion about religion helped either. In hindsight my son would have been spared more health issues if I had been successful in cutting the cord cleanly the first time. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 396 Registered: 11-2005 |
Busymom, I am real happy for you. Just keep your eyes on Jesus and don't look back! Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 47 Registered: 7-2007 |
While I was in the process of studying my way out of Adventism (once that friend had finally knocked over that first domino - so to speak); every so often a kind of mental "fuzzy dark cloud" would come over me and I would be confused as to whether what I was studying was correct or not. I would be embarrassed to admit that I was confused, but when I did mention that to the friend and both of us would pray about it, the "fuzzy dark cloud" went away and then I would understand clearly again. That happened occasionally over the time I was studying my way clear, but it was weird. I'd never had that happen before or since. It was such a strong confusion - I felt it was clearly supernatural. (Shudder) Dianne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1951 Registered: 10-2004 |
Dianne, that sounds like the "veil" that Paul talks about in 2 Corinthians chapters 3-4, which is definitely supernatural:
Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 18, 2007) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1076 Registered: 9-2006  |
It has been my experience and especially of late when things just seem to get “foggy” or “fragmented”, what I seemed to have a clear vision on last week seems to have just “fragmented” and the vision and purpose I had just seemed to burst into thousands of pieces of sparkle and glitter and no longer clear at all, maybe its Gods way of forcing our mind and spirit to take a rest, or maybe he is getting us ready for new goals he wants us too accomplish, just my rambling thoughts. Monday I finally broke down and called my Pastor and told him “Pastor I need someone to unload on, would you be up for that?” He promptly answered back to the affirmative and we set up and appointment yesterday morning. So we sat in the sanctuary and talked for about an hour, I talked about my work, not in a manner of complaint but in the manner of just talking about Christian work in general, neither one of us said anything new, we understood each other perfectly, he talked and I talked and that was all there was to it, but it seemed to afford some relief from the “fog”, I felt really prompted to call him when I did. Sometimes things just get “foggy” and sometimes we have the need to be validated if I am using the right word for it. When things get “foggy” and we can no longer seem to see clearly, it is good to find someone who will listen, I am so thankful for my Pastor, he is a man of depth, understanding and loves his “flock”. Maybe, as I said, and as I think more on it this morning, it may be Gods way of making us take a mental brake and it may be that he has something new planned for us or it may be both or neither one of these things. But I can certainly understand how things might become “foggy” with you guys, I certainly understand fully that one can come to a place where he/she is no longer certain about anything. Some times I think we are too hesitant to ask for prayer and just be honest about where we are at the time. Afraid too show weakness as it were and so we suffer alone when there is no need to do so. We ought to have more confidence in our Christian brethren and put down pride and ask for help and prayer, but instead we let pride or fear get in the way and go it alone and suffer needlessly. About six months ago I came under attack from Satan so badly I had to ask the church to pray, I felt I could not defend myself and pray they did, it seemed as if bars of steel slammed down around me in a protective manner and left Satan outside clawing at the bars trying to get to me. The next day my wife and I were scheduled to drive to the Coast for a day of rest and as I drove the freeway I actually had the thought “naner, naner, naner, you can’t get me! I knew in my spirit that God had his hand of protection on me, so I went in relief and Joy. Course you folks probably think I’m nuts, that’s O.K. too, least I’m nuts for Jesus. I said all that to say this, ask for help and prayer when you need it. We don’t need to become a perpetual victim, always needy, there is victory in him, But there are times when we all need the help and prayers of the brothers and sisters. What is the scripture about a three fold cord not being easily broken? River | ||
| Cloudy Registered user Username: Cloudy Post Number: 16 Registered: 7-2007 |
Yes, River, it is difficult to show weakness and ask for help. I just got back from facing a difficult situation myself. I asked my small group for some wisdom and prayer before I left. They didn't tell me anything I didn't already know, but the response was validating for me, and they did pray that I would have "peace beyond all reason" in my situation. I did retain that peace for a while, but when under more direct spiritual attack, I could no longer feel God's peace or presence with me. I still feel spiritually bruised by the experience, and need to learn how to receive God's protection as you did. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6337 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, thank you for your post. You are right. It is not a sign of weakness for a Christ-follower to admit he/she needs prayer. I want to thank all those who pray for this forum and for Life Assurance Ministries and for us. We do need prayer...on an ongoing basis. Sometimes the "overwhelm feeling" threatens to close in... God is faithul—and I am truly grateful that He prompts us to pray for each other. I know that I pray for this forum every day, and for specific needs you express. Praying for you both right now, River and Cloudy... Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1094 Registered: 9-2006 |
Cloudy, I had lost track of this thread, but I am praying for you right now that God will place a hedge of protection around you. Also I am praying for the folks on this forum and for the administrators that God will give you special wisdom and protection and all involved with Proclamation! River | ||
| Cloudy Registered user Username: Cloudy Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2007 |
Thank you for the prayers Cloudy |
