| Author |
Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6327
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 10:22 pm: |     |
River, I see you as so aware of spiritual reality—you discern and understand spiritual truth with clarity and authority, and I know that your insight and understanding is the work of the Holy Spirit in you.
I'm certain God has many reasons for putting Adventists into your life, but I know absolutely that one of those reasons was that He knew we needed you and your clarifying insight on this forum. Thank you for being honest and obedient to Him.
Colleen |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 48
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 7:39 am: | |
Hi everyone; my friend asked that I would send a further explanation of her response as she thinks that she was misunderstood. Please read clear through to the end because the Bible verses are there.(Both her and I believe that Jesus is fully God.)
Quote:
Hi to Jeremy,
It is me again. I am very sorry that you are having difficulty with my first response. I will try to make it a little clearer for you. Again I want to emphasize that although Jesus is was and always will be forever God. He took on the form of man. Yes, the word did become flesh (incarnation). He remained fully God and became fully man (human).
Even though He was fully God on this earth and was recognized as such many times. He did not operate or function or use the power He had as God on this earth. He was God on earth but lived on earth as a man. He is our example. He did what He wants us to do. He led by example. If He used His omnipotent power, and did what we cannot do, then He is no longer an example to us in that area.
(Example – if the king of a country chose to lay aside his kingly robes and walk as a common man among his people, some would still recognize him, the majority would not. He would still have the power and rights as king, he is still the king but for a time he is choosing to live as a common man. At any time he chooses he can use his power and authority as king but for a time chooses not to use his power.
If the king gave his signet ring to a common man that man would have the same power as the king and would be acting in the King’s name, but would not be the king only his representative)
Jesus is the King; He came to earth as King still, but took on our humanity. When He left, to again take His place as King, He sent us His Holy Spirit to empower us as His ambassadors on earth.
The apostles have never been God and never will be God but they had access to the same power, HOLY SPIRIT that Jesus had access to as a human. Jesus did what He did as a human and not as God by the power of the Holy Spirit although He always is God and could have used His own power, He chooses not to. The apostles of Christ Jesus were able to heal the lame and raise the dead and like the first born of the dead, our Lord Jesus, will be raised or resurrected in a body like His. Although Jesus is, was and always will be God, He now will also always be human, bearing in Hs flesh the scars of the cross. The only man made thing in heaven are the scars in my savior’s hands and feet and side.
Jesus said greater things will we be able to do. Jesus did not come in His own name or to do His own will. He came in the Father’s name to do the Father’s will. As Christians we bear the name of Christ we go in His name to do His will and not our own, as we have been bought with a price and are no longer our own.
I like the amplified Bible; verses follow:
John 14:12
I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, if anyone steadfastly believes in Me (Jesus), he will himself be able to do the things that I do; and he will do even greater things than these, because I go to the Father
Phil 2:5-7
5 Let this same attitude and purpose and humble mind be in you, which was in Christ Jesus: Let Him be your example in humility
6 Who, although being one with God and in the form of God possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God, God, did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,
7 But stripped Himself of all privileges and rightful dignity, so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.
8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself still further and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!
9 Therefore because He stooped so low God has highly exalted Him and has freely bestowed on Him the name that is above every name
John 3:34
For since He (Jesus) Whom God has sent speaks the words of God proclaims God's own message, God does not give Him His Spirit sparingly or by measure, but boundless is the gift God makes of His Spirit!
Romans 5:17
17 For if because of one man's (Adam) trespass death reigned through that one, much more surely will those who receive [God's] overflowing grace and the free gift of righteousness reign as kings in life through the one Man Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
Humanity had only two perfect or sinless representatives, = the two Adams. 1Cor 15:45 Rom 5:15-20
The first Adam chose to sin and sin came to all men the second Adam, the Lord Jesus, chose not to sin and as many as will receive His finished work on the cross will be made righteous through His redemption.
In His love
His servant |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 51
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 10:19 am: | |
I'd like to mention something myself. I don't know much yet about the Holy Spirit, but it seems that a person would need to be saved FIRST, before they could receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Adventists are wary of tongues; first, because Seventh-day Adventists (I think) are incapable of recieving the Holy Spirit, (I'm thinking that, because Adventists don't have the right gospel and they don't have the right Jesus. Their "Jesus" is a judge and they bypass Jesus and go back to the old covenant) and wherever there is a genuine, the devil is sure to counterfeit! As non-Spirit filled people, Adventists and other "not-quite-Christians" can only observe. When they notice the conterfeits going on, it's easy for them to discount ALL of it! As a former Adventist myself, I'm being very careful not to discount the work of the Holy Spirit. I just want to be VERY SURE that I'm grounded in the Bible - the Word of God! That way I can have the RIGHT Jesus and the RIGHT gospel and can therefore have the true Holy Spirit!
Dianne |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 266
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 4:52 pm: | |
Thank you all, for your comments on this thread. Very interesting words, indeed. Very kind attitudes, even when there may be disagreement. Thank you for that.
As a result of you all making me think deeply, I had a new thought that I've never considered before. We have a triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. For me, there has been a triune experience in my spiritual growth that can be roughly aligned with the triune God: God the Father gave be human birth, God the Son gave me new birth, and God the Holy Spirit baptized me with the Holy Ghost and fire. For me, these were separate and distinct experiences, but all were a part of the same continuum in my relationship to God.
All three personalities were working together at all times in this process. As each facet of the triune God is distinct from the other, each of these experiences had features that were distinctly different from the others, but all are part of the same life process.
River, I really resonate with your illustration of the parent with the children playing in the water. That was very inspired and inspiring.
I agree with Colleen. I am SO GLAD you're on this forum.
Honestwitness |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6338
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 1:06 am: | |
I was tempted simply to "let it go", but I can't; the letter above, Dianne, is not stating what we know from the Bible to be Biblical truth about Jesus. Philippians tells us that Jesus "emptied himself" and was made in the form of a bondservant. Yet as a human, He did not empty Himself of His divine power. He left His glory.
Jesus had power because He Is God. He did not have "derived power" from an empowering Holy Spirit. He had His OWN power. He calmed the storm on Galilee because He was Lord over creation. Remember when the disciples were astonished and said, "What manner of man is this, that the winds and the waves obey Him?" It was HE who had intrinsic power over creation. It was He who fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament, that the Messiah would give life to the dead, give sight to the blind, heal the sick, etc.
Colossians tells us that it was the Father's good pleasure "for all the fullness to dwell in Him." This fulness dwelt in Him as a human. The same chapter in Colossians (1) tells us that he is the Creator of all things, and in Him all things hold together. This "holding together" IN CHRIST continued even when He was on earth.
No, Jesus was not primarily our example in terms of how we are to act. He was our SUBSTITUTE. Jesus did not STOP being God and possessing His divine nature and power while He was a human. He limited Himself to a physical form, but He WAS still fully God. Jesus was never diminished from being and possessing all of God and His attributes.
The view that Jesus was less God-like when He was a human is not biblical. When we receive the Holy Spirit, our power is from outside ourselves. It is "other" than us--we have no part in divinity except as God gives us Himself. Jesus' power was not outside Himself or "other" than His own nature. He is and was God--His power was His own.
When the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus at His baptism, that wasn't all that happened. The FATHER spoke: This is my beloved Son in whom I am well-pleased. The remarkable thing about Jesus' baptism is that the entire Trinity was there, together, announcing the biginning of Jesus' ministry of reconciliation. 1 Timothy 1 says that Jesus was "the testimony given at the proper time". Jesus' whole ministry including His death and resurrection announced God's—the Trinity's—eternal plan to save humanity.
Jesus wasn't less God when He was here. While His baptism and the affirmation of the Father and the Spirit marked the launch of His ministry, those circumstances were not to make Jesus "able" to do what He came to do. Rather, all of God confirmed Jesus' true nature and identity and authority to be the mediator between God and man.
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1085
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 7:50 am: | |
Hey Colleen,
You brought up a point that I had never seen before Quote: “The entire trinity was there.” Thanks for that! I pick up nuggets on here all the time that I can take to heart and use.
When it comes to thinking about the trinity I confess my eyeballs start rolling around in my head and I am no authority on the trinity but I would like to just sit under your teaching one of these days and hear what you have on the subject.
I think, just from looking at it from the different views, the problem comes in when folk separate out the father, Son and the Holy Ghost as three distinct entities, would you think that is where the problems come from?
For instance I was reading yesterday somewhere in Acts or maybe Romans trying to figure out all the confusion on the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.
I looked up the scripture and here it is Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
Now at first glance one could come to the conclusion that Jesus is distinct and separate since the scripture reads that he gave the commandments “Through the Holy Ghost”, the problems come in when we separate into three distinct beings, you get what I am saying?
I was very much in prayer yesterday as I drove a few miles over to another city and I ask “Lord, why can’t I explain the Baptism of the Holy Ghost clearly and succinctly, and these words came to my mind ” Some think you are saying that the Spirit comes in and then again at a later time”.
I am asking the Lord to be able to teach on this subject, I feel that I am not making myself clear and thus it creates confusion to the person who has been born again and hasn’t been Baptized in the Holy Ghost, a fine example of this is when Paul ask these disciples he ran up on and they said “we have not heard whether there be any Holy Ghost” Anyway that’s a dead subject for now until I can teach it effectively I aim to just drop it and pray for wisdom.
But why I said all this is I think it’s the same problem we run into when we try to separate the trinity into three Gods, am I saying this right? Colleen, I at all times want you or anyone else to correct me where you think I am thinking wrong, I can’t get anywhere by keeping a closed mind, I am open to course adjustments.
Now to the problem, the trinity, if we separate out into three distinct beings we end up with three Gods instead of one God, is that right?
And any time we do this we run into problems, take for instance when Jesus said John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
And this one John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Very interesting text would you say?
So then the problems come in when we try to view the Baptism in the Holy Ghost in that same manner, but Jesus said “He that has seen me has seen the Father”, now could we say that “he that has experienced the Holy Ghost has experienced the Father? Would that be a correct supposition? I am not trying to assert it, I am asking. Anyone with an answer, please speak up.
So in like manner I can very well see how my “second event” description leads to confusion. Forgive me, I had no idea nor intention of causing consternation or confusion or agitation. It is not a proper and understandable description and I stand corrected.
I can easily see why said you “couldn’t let it go” it agitates something within your Spirit, am I assuming correctly? That is, when folk begin to separate God.
I does create problems in my mind when we attempt to separate the entity.
There is no distinction between the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost, these three are one.
It does tend to agitate my Spirit when the Holy Ghost is referred to as “It”, that word denotes an object, the proper word is him. We are all saved by one and the same Spirit.
Again, I am not trying to cause confusion by bringing in conversation on the Baptism of the Holy Ghost into it, nor try to keep that conversation going, I am done with the subject until and if God gives me greater wisdom on the subject, it is just that the confusion of the trinity bears such a striking resemblance to the confusion over the Baptism in the Holy Ghost. I feel that I am grappling with something but I just don’t know how to get hold of it.
I feel like the man who wrestled with the Angel all night.
River |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1961
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 11:33 am: | |
Hi Dianne,
Thanks for posting the response from your friend. Before addressing what she said further, I would like to know what kind of background she is coming from, if she doesn't mind, such as what church she belongs to? And does she believe in "Oneness Pentecostalism"? Does she believe in the "Word of Faith" movement (such as Benny Hinn, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Fred Price, etc.)?
If she is not comfortable sharing this information, that is fine.
Jeremy |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 55
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 12:32 pm: | |
Hi everybody, this subject, as River said, is "making my eyeballs roll around in my head" in confusion too.
Jeremy, before responding here, I asked my friend if she believed in that "Oneness Pentecostalism" or that "Word of Faith" movement. (I've never heard of them.) She answered with an emphatic "NO!" She said those groups are "off." She told me that Jesus didn't lay aside the fact that He is God, while He was on earth - just that He used the Holy Spirit's power rather than His own during that time. But, since God is infinate and He is one God in three Persons, I'm not sure that it matters so much just which Member of the Godhead's power was used. Again, though, since God is One, maybe one cannot distinguish between powers - there go my eyeballs, rolling around my head again, in confusion! I don't know that it matters so much, since God's power is infinate.
Anyway, my friend used to be Catholic, but was saved out of it about 30 years ago. Since then she's read and studied the Bible a lot. She goes to a little "church" which is actually just a small group of people meeting in a home.
As for myself, I've been going to a non-denominational church with another friend. It has really nice music and interesting sermons. The only drawback to it is that it's so BIG! I'm thinking of eventually going to a smaller church (not REALLY tiny like the home church that the friend who led me out - with the Lord's help - of the SDA church) that still has good music and good sermons but has a small enough congregation that a person can actually get to know people there. I wonder what the Baptist or Assembly of God churches are like?
Dianne |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1093
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 1:18 pm: | |
Dianne,
I,m not Jeremy but is has been my experience finding a church is like looking for a pair of shoes.
Shoes, what do I want, comfort and fit, not to tight, not to loose. Finding a pair of shoes can be a tough chore at times, out of the shelves full of shoes you got to go in, try them on, walk around, pay the money and hope after you get them home you can wear them.
Even within denominations there are differences from one church to the next, even though to first impression you feel good about the church, you may later find you are not so comfortable there after all.
If you go to give of your time, talents, energy,self instead of what you can get out of it, that makes it much easier ,but you still may have to move around a little bit.
Myself I go to church out of obedience to Christ and to serve as best I can, I don't go expecting to get I go expecting to give (not talking about money, although that is part of it) but give my service to Christ. I find by doing so, I receive abundantly back, the church I go to must fit that bill and keep on fitting that bill.
Like my old every day shoes, they may not be pretty and they are split at the seems but they are the shoes I walk in.
My church may not be the best, it may have its problems but it's the church that I serve in.
Now I know this didn't help at all but it is truth for me.
River |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 60
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 2:34 pm: | |
River, if I'm to give my my time/talents/energy/self; then I'd need to go to a small enough church that would need those talents. This HUGE church has so many people in it that they have an overflowing amount of talent 
On the other hand, if the church is too small, then they are always asking people to get up front and do stuff. Years ago (while I was still an Adventist) I played the piano for prayer meeting at a small Adventist church. I've have them pick out simple hymns for me to play, but still the people would sing on ahead of me while I was scrambling to keep up!
Still, a small church would be nicer even if they asked me to play the piano. At least I'd be involved with them then, though I'd have to practice the piano really hard!
Actually it would be nice to have a nice band already in place - it would sound a lot better than my piano playing!
Dianne |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6343
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 4:44 pm: | |
River, your post above was so insightful. You are totally right—the issue is separating the Trinity. This separation is exactly what Adventism and Mormonism have done. They have created "three gods" instead of One God expressed in three persons.
I know that some Pentecostal preachers do teach that Jesus didn't operate in His own power on earth but operated in the power of the Holy Spirit, just like we can, and thus He was our example. The problem with this is that is separates Jesus from His own divinity. Colossians is very clear that ALL the FULLNESS of deity was in Jesus while He was on earth. He never stopped being omnipresent, omnipotent, the Creator in whom all things hold together, the firstborn, and so on.
The miracle, the singularity of Jesus' incarnation is that while He emptied Himself of His glory and took forever the physical body of a man, He never stopped being fully and completely all of God. He never lost His divine qualities and power. It is, in my opinion, a dangerous idea to suggest that Jesus operated in power outside Himself while He was on earth. The Trinity cannot be separated.
The miracle of the Holy Spirit's empowering of us as Christ-followers is that the Triune God makes us literally one with Himself. We are in Christ, hidden in God (Col 3:3), and the Holy Spirit is the Trinity's deposit guaranteeing our future glorification when we will inherit all the physical and spiritual glory Jesus has and has won for us. He gives us, literally, all the power of God.
I think Ephesians 3:14-19 expresses this reality so well. Notice again the presence of the ENTIRE TRINITY: "For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullnress of God."
Isn't that amazing? The point of the Spirit's indwelling and empowering is that Christ dwells in our hearts through faith, and we will be filled to the measure of all the fullnes of God.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is about our being literally one with the entire Trinity—filled with ALL the fullness of God! Christ in us, us in Christ, hidden in God—one with God! There is no power greater than that! God asks us to surrender to Him and allow His Spirit to awaken and heal and empower every corner of our hearts and memories so we will be filled with His love, peace, power, and assurance.
And here's the conclusion to the passage above: Eph 3:20-21: "Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen."
This baptism of the Holy Spirit is the Father's own gift to us, and when the Holy Spirit makes us alive in Christ, we are filled with the Father and also with Jesus.
We can't separate the Trinity—and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a miracle: we are brought into oneness with the entire Trinity! We are made one with the One who is entirely "other" than us--no other creation in all the universe has been granted this astonishing reality!
Just thinking about this reduces me to tears of gratitude and amazement. Praise Him forever!
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1100
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 7:29 pm: | |
I suppose I have heard this taught in Pentecostal churches, but just never connected what was being said. I really was not exposed to any church that taught direct distinction between entities such as the Quote from D.B on the other ongoing thread.
Amazing isn't it?
Now I realize why Jeremy asked the beliefs of Dianne's friend.
There still remain this scripture which too my mind explains the Lord more fully probably than any other scripture John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
I treat the Holy Spirit the same way, that is why I must warn against comparing activity of the Holy Spirit to a known heretic. because howbeit ever so mysterious, Jesus said it, it just seems to me a done deal, it does leave us to grapple with it, how ever I will fall back on this, whatever I cannot come to a full understanding of, I just must hold it in tension.
Back in the seventy's some described it has the one with different offices, since I could come up with nothing better back then I didn't argue the point but held it in tension.
I have many things in my "tension" files and it has seemed a slow process to remove files, but there has been movement.
One thing I have learned about “Tension” files is that they don’t go anywhere until you open the drawer and take them out, they just sit there waiting.
And if I don’t quite understand something into the tension file it goes.
The Baptism in the Holy Ghost part is not in a tension file, it is in the fact file, I just don’t know how to communicate it, I realize something spiritually that many, many people do not and I know they do not, the problem remains, how to communicate that Spiritual reality to someone else, so in goes that communications problem into the “tension” file, Maybe it is not meant for me to be able to communicate this, maybe God wants people to search for him with a whole heart.
It may never come out again accept to be looked at and wondered at. Sometimes I pray about something in my “tension” files, hey maybe we could call it the cold case files, I do take them out and try to solve them every once in a while.
What say you folks, any of you got tension files or cold case file stored in your noodle?
River |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1101
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 7:39 pm: | |
Just a quick added thought here, whether we speak in terms of the the father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost we are speaking of the same authority.
Another remarkable scripture concern this, he said he would never leave us nor forsake us, most remarkable.
River |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1102
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 7:52 pm: | |
Dianne,
If you find a church where you can serve Christ now, did it ever occur to you that things might be completely diffrent than the Adventist church, that you might enjoy playing more now, or that when ask to lead songs in a true Christian setting that people would not be so gross but wait on your leadership?
We treat our song leader with respect and work together and worship together.
You got to get rid of the flotsam and jetsam of Adventism that still trys to cling to you. Shake it off girl and go for God.
River |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6345
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 11:21 pm: | |
I agree, River. The Trinity is all the same Authority. Amazing. And I also agree that we actually can't really explain this whole miracle. Yes, I hold this in tension. There are several things I hold in tension, in fact. I can't systematize God.
Good advice to Dianne, too. The most important thing, Dianne, is to ask God to guide you and teach you how to worship Him in Spirit and in truth. He has great surprises and much depth in store for you. He'll guide you to a church where you can flourish.
Colleen |
Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 632
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 2:28 pm: | |
Lorry MacGregor has made some interesting work on laying out the Scriptures concerning Jesus, His life here on earth and afterwards in relation to the teaching of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
I find the following interesting in the above context:
"He [Jesus] came to earth as Emmanuel- God with Us [Matt. 1:23]. For a" little while" He became lower than the Angels [Heb. 2:9], and although existing in the form of God, He emptied Himself [ i.e. set aside His Divine privileges] and took the form of a man. [Phil. 2:5-8].
He was still Deity [Col. 2:9] but functioned as a man to buy back what Adam lost- a perfect human life [Rom. 5:12,15] While a perfect man, Jesus placed HIMSELF in the divine order [1 Cor. 11:3] and for this time said " The Father is greater than I am," [ John 14:28], "greater" being a Greek word denoting position [ not nature].
The Jews knew Jesus' claim to be the "Son of God' showed He considered Himself equal to the Father in nature [ John 5:18; 10:30-33; 14:7-9]. After proving faithful to death, Jesus was exalted and worshiped with a "name above every name' [Phil. 2:9,10]. "
http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/jws_real_jesus.html
Also
"2) Mark 5:30/ Luke 8:45 When Jesus was walking through a crowd, he didn't know who touched him.
3) Mark 13:32 Jesus didn't know when he was coming back.
ANSWER
Jesus didn't know who touched him or when he was coming back because he "gave up his place with God, and made himself nothing" (Philippians 2:7) to come and live among mankind. He voluntarily ceased using some of his divine attributes in order to accomplish his objectives (he laid aside his glory as God, so that he might be born in the likeness of men). Jesus made himself a little lower than the angels (Hebrews 2:9), so he must have existed as something higher than the angels before he came to earth. In John 17:5, Jesus asks the father to give him the glory he had before the world began."
"5) John 14:28 Jesus said: "my father is greater than I".
ANSWER
Jesus is not speaking about his nature or his essential being, but rather his lowly position in the incarnation. Jesus did not say my father is better than I. The father is greater than Jesus because he has a higher position. (That is why the father knew when Jesus was coming back and Jesus did not). But the father is not better than Jesus. Example: the president of the United States is greater than us because of the office he holds. But the president of the United States is not better than us. Greater is position. Better is nature. The father has a greater position than Jesus, but not a better nature."
http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/realjesus2.html
Jesus you are my one and all,
Martin |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6354
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 11:12 pm: | |
I respect Lori McGregor, but I do differ with her on the issue concerning of what Jesus divested Himself when He was incarnate. He certainly put off His glory and became in every way a man. On the other hand, even without His glory He still had all the power of God.
Regarding His question of "Who touched me?" as an evidence that He did not know things, I don't believe we can take that single text--which in context involved Jesus not allowing that suffering woman to be anonymous--to determine whether or not He was omnicscient. Other texts suggest he DID know the "unknowable":
John 2:23 ¶ Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name.
John 2:24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men.
John 2:25 He did not need man’s testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man.
See also John 6:61 & 64 including " 'Yet there are some of you who do not believe.' For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him."
Also John 13:11 as well as Matthew 9:3-4: "At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, 'This fellow is blaspheming!' Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, 'Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?' "
Jesus was omniscient, omnipotent, and even onmnipresent, holding all things together in Himself. How? We can't understand it, but He didn't stop having the fullness of deity in Him--and that's not just His nature, the "fullness" includes His divine power. (Not that He protected Himself from suffering and tejmptation as a man with His power, but He did have all the fullness of deity in Him—Colossians 1:19.)
Colleen |
River
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Username: River
Post Number: 1111
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 6:21 am: | |
I agree Colleen, there again, the problem seems the same here, we start trying again to separate Jesus from Jesus, its the same old problem of separating the trinity.
Furthermore I believe it might be the same old problem when it comes to believing that Jesus baptizes with the Holy Ghost, they say, how can we be baptized with the Holy Ghost when we are filled with the Holy Ghost?
And it doesn't make sense to them so they have to reinterpret the scripture to suit the way they think. They end up with all kinds of scenarios, cessation-ism, authoritarian-ism and so on.
It is a big problem, due to this people start to proof text to justify their thinking.
It really gets bad when people begin to try to separate God and begin to put Jesus the lessor, or the Holy Ghost the lessor.
AS the old song goes "he could have called ten thousand Angels".
My opinion? Theologians need to seek his face the same as the ignorant farmer who can barely read.
Theologians say "I have sought God and this is what I found" when it ought be "I will seek God to see what I will yet find".
Any time we take theology as a substitute for weeping and supplication before the presence of an almighty God we get into problems. Any time we get baptized in the Holy Ghost and speak with tongues and substitute that for seeking in tears and prayer and supplication in humbleness before an almighty God we get into problems, I'm guilty. Of course I guess I am the only one that's guilty though.
The truth is we need to seek hard, hard after him.
As the honest scientist will say "the more I learn, the more ignorant I become."
River |
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1967
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 2:04 pm: | |
Here are some additional texts which show that Jesus was omniscient (all-knowing) while on earth:
quote:"Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God." (John 16:30 NASB.)
"So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and said to them, 'Whom do you seek?'" (John 18:4 NASB.)
"He said to him the third time, 'Simon, son of John, do you love Me?' Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, 'Do you love Me?' And he said to Him, 'Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.' Jesus said to him, 'Tend My sheep." (John 21:17 NASB.)
Also, Colleen, Jesus did protect Himself from suffering by using His own divine power:
quote:"Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple." (John 8:59 NASB.)
"And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things;
29and they got up and drove Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff.
30But passing through their midst, He went His way." (Luke 4:28-30 NASB.)
"So they were seeking to seize Him; and no man laid his hand on Him, because His hour had not yet come." (John 7:30 NASB.)
"These words He spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one seized Him, because His hour had not yet come." (John 8:20 NASB.)
Also, Jesus is the Sovereign God of the universe and so all things (and any prevention of suffering) would be due to His will and control and power.
Also, Jesus said: "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." (John 10:17-18 NIV.)
The idea that Jesus never used His divine power (or "the Holy Spirit's power") to prevent suffering for Himself comes from...you guessed it...EGW:
quote:"Not without a struggle could Jesus listen in silence to the arch-deceiver. But the Son of God was not to prove His divinity to Satan, or to explain the reason of His humiliation. By conceding to the demands of the rebel, nothing for the good of man or the glory of God would be gained. Had Christ complied with the suggestion of the enemy, Satan would still have said, Show me a sign that I may believe you to be the Son of God. Evidence would have been worthless to break the power of rebellion in his heart. And Christ was not to exercise divine power for His own benefit. He had come to bear trial as we must do, leaving us an example of faith and submission. Neither here nor at any subsequent time in His earthly life did He work a miracle in His own behalf. His wonderful works were all for the good of others. Though Jesus recognized Satan from the beginning, He was not provoked to enter into controversy with him. Strengthened with the memory of the voice from heaven, He rested in His Father's love. He would not parley with temptation." (The Desire of Ages, page 119, paragraph 3.)
That is just an absolute lie by Ellen. He most certainly did work miracles in His own behalf (see the above Bible verses).
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on July 22, 2007) |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6362
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 9:38 pm: | |
Jeremy, you're absolutely right. Thank you for pointing out that I made that egregious error!
Let me rephrase what I actually was trying to say: Jesus suffered completely as a human. Although we cannot explain how it "worked", even though we know that as God He could not have sinned, still He suffered true temptation. His agony in the garden, His temptations in the wilderness, the attacks and scorn He endured from His detractors—all these things He experienced. He suffered during His flogging; He suffered as He carried His own cross and fell under its weight. He suffered emotionally and physically without shielding Himself from it.
But yes—He DID use His power to protect Himself. For Ellen to say He never worked a miracle on His own behalf is, as you said, "an absolute lie". Thank you again, Jeremy, for correcting me!
River, you are absolutely right above. I loved the way you said this: "Any time we take theology as a substitute for weeping and supplication before the presence of an almighty God we get into problems. Any time we get baptized in the Holy Ghost and speak with tongues and substitute that for seeking in tears and prayer and supplication in humbleness before an almighty God we get into problems, "
Thank you again, River, for speaking truthfully to us.
Colleen |
Godssonjp
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Username: Godssonjp
Post Number: 48
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 8:54 am: | |
I hesitate to post this as I am not very well versed in scripture. As I read the texts posted by Jeremy, I fail to see where Jesus used his divine power to protect Himself from suffering. Now, in no way am I saying that Jesus NEVER used his divine power to protect Himself, I just don't see it in those texts. At this point, I don't agree or disagree. It seems as though, in the first two text posted, Jesus just "slipped through" and got lost in the crowd.
"So they were seeking to seize Him; and no man laid his hand on Him, because His hour had not yet come." (John 7:30 NASB.)
"These words He spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one seized Him, because His hour had not yet come." (John 8:20 NASB.)
Sounds to me that they wanted to seize Him but had no real reason to seize or arrest Him so no one tried at that time. Does that make sense?
Maybe that was a miracle in itself. I don't know. Correct me where I'm wrong, please. Are there any other texts to show where Jesus used His divine power to protect Himself from suffering?
Side note:
I do not subscribe to anything EGW says about this subject or any other subject. I am not supporting her veiws in stating what I stated. |
Asurprise
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Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 61
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 10:09 am: | |
Thank-you River and Colleen.
River, I'm praying that the Lord will make a way for you to explain the gifts of the Holy Spirit to us "formers" more fully. Having been in a church that's SO devoid of the Holy Spirit and also hearing stories of times that the devil fakes that "tongues" gift - he fakes ALL of God's gifts! - we "formers" are understandably wary. We just need to be careful not to "throw out the Baby with the bathwater" though. There are real "tongues" though - it's written all through the apostle Paul's letters. I'm just not sure just what "tongues" mean. (That's something that I'm holding in "tension.") I do know that the Holy Spirit came to empower the church. Without Him, we're as helpless as baby mice, when it comes to spreading the gospel! And THAT is the problem as I see it. The devil WANTS us to be helpless. When we recieve the gifts of the Holy Spirit - whatever they are - then the Lord can use us to spread the good news with power!
Dianne
(Another thing that I'm holding in "tension" is what Revelation is talking about. When I was an Adventist, I thought I knew ALL about it. Now I have to start all over again!) |
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1970
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 11:29 am: | |
Colleen, thanks for clarifying. I realized later that perhaps you weren't saying that Jesus never used His divine power to protect Himself from suffering.
Godssonjp,
Hmm. I have always read those first two texts as being miracles. I think the second one is especially clear, since it says they "led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff." It sounds like they are holding onto Him, or at the very least it seems it would take a miracle for Him to escape! "But passing through their midst, He went His way."
In the other two texts, it says the only reason they didn't seize Him was "because His hour had not yet come"--in other words, God was completely in control (and Jesus is God).
My dad came up with other examples of Jesus working miracles in His own behalf, such as when Jesus performed a miracle to pay the tribute (Matthew 17:24-27), and when He touched a leper without catching leprosy.
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on July 23, 2007) |
River
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Username: River
Post Number: 1130
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 8:02 pm: | |
Sure Jeremy, as Jesus said, it wasn't his time, I have noticed theses time when Jesus prevented things from happening to him and the miracle of the money in the fishes mouth, the calming of the storm, the walking on water and many other miracles.
It always sure read to me as if they had hold of him and they would have thrown him off there for sure if they could have. There is so much that is mysterious about God, things I sure don't understand, but this I know, he is my maker.
Like he told Moses "I am that I am" and thats who he is to me in a nutshell, mysterious, powerful and yet he loves me, here I sit and as my Dad used to say "Boy you ain't worth killin" but to him I am worth much. Beats me, but I love him back.
River |
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