| Author | Message | ||
| Jay_g Registered user Username: Jay_g Post Number: 9 Registered: 7-2007 |
If the Adventist Church changed would you go back? I remember having a discussion with my Cousin whose wife at the time worked for the General Conference (SDA) this was maybe around 1994 or 1995. He is one of the most intelligent people I know, and the only one of my relatives I really discussed my opinions about the Church with. He seemed to have many of the same opinions I did but he was encouraging me to stay and try and change things from the inside. I began examining what I believed and realized that if the Church was to agree with me they would loose what made them special. I did not really think of it as being a cult until like a month ago, but I did know that I didn’t believe a lot of the teachings of the church. In the mid 90s I started calling myself a Unitarian because my understanding was that they did not have any doctrine and you were free to believe what you wanted and that your understanding could evolve as Jesus/God reviled more of himself to you. I loved the idea but I didn’t feel that comfortable with the very generic language of the sermons. I felt I should quietly leave the SDA Church, because I didn’t want to make any waves for those who did believe. I felt that if it worked for them why should I interfere with their salvation. I strongly believed that certain other Churches were dangerous, I used to work with some very devout Jehovah’s Witnesses, one even said to me that if his child was going to die without a blood transfusion it was better to let her DIE. I was mortified! At least commit the “sin” and than ask for forgiveness after! In contrast I felt that SDA was similar but comparatively harmless. Ok, now back to my point. I felt in the past that I shouldn’t try and make waves for the sake of true believers, for whom the message works, but without EGW what is the Adventist Church? Look at what happened to the worldwide church of God! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Church_of_God In 1994 they rejected most of what their founder had taught. This caused an amazing transformation for those who stayed but more than ½ the members left. Most of the money stopped coming in and the college closed. This would be a very scary message to send to the majority of SDA pastors, Teachers, Administers and even Hospital Staff. I encourage you to watch the video Called to be free http://www.lhvm.org/wcg.htm If the Church agreed with Mr. Rea back in 1980 or if the General conference now voted that EGW was a false prophet, and in much the same way as the worldwide Church of God did with Herbert Armstrong, what would happen? I imagine a number of people would leave the church and some would start new old covenant Miller Churches, but many would stay and help redefine the new Church. My question to this group of the people who left is, would you come back? Let’s assume that they still meet on the 7th day but stop calling it Sabbath, or they change the name and the day or worship, would that make a difference to you? I realize that those of you who have found new church homes that you have been involved with for some time probably would have no reason to even think of coming back. But some of us who have left more recently might have family and friends in the church that we might want to fellowship with. It would perhaps also left to lessen the devastation of the remaining members if a bunch of the more than 1,500,000 who left over the past few years came back. Do you think there any chance of this ever happening within the SDA church? What is the best likely scenario? The worst likely scenario? Jay | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 513 Registered: 11-2004 |
Would I go back? No Even if they changed to being Gospel-centered I'm pretty sure that I would fit better where I am now. I love that video. I pray for the same thing to happen in Adventism. Have 1.5 million really left? How many of those went to other churches? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3977 Registered: 3-2004  |
Would i go back? NO. I am very much entrencehd in the church I attend and that is where God wants me at this time. I really cannot see the SDA church giving up EGW and the Sabbath. Individuals are changing but not the people who lead it. The worst scenario is that the SDA church become very historic and go back to the beliefs that EGW held when the church was formed. I had the video of the WWCoG. My daughter in law was raised in that church, so I took the video to my son and DIL last November. Diana | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 374 Registered: 11-2005 |
Jay, I visited a local WCG fellowship one week. While the group I met with was making every effort to be what we here consider to be New Covenant Christians, the thing that struck me was how: 1. They still carried with them a lot of emotional baggage from the transition that they had been through. It kept coming up by way of reference to the past in their Bible Study class. 2. They were missing out on the joy of fellowshipping with other mature Christians. I would never, never go back to Adventism. I have found what I was missing for 54 years! The joy and enthusiasm I now experience, combined with the incredible Bible Study and expository preaching, leaves me speechless. The worship services are filled with vibrant, but reverent, praise to God. We are overwhelmed with gratitude and humility as we turn our eyes to a risen Savior! The pastor often reminds us that it is not about the (Baptist) denomination. It is about Jesus, and that is all that matters. What a difference! We do not "pay" tithes. We "give" generous offerings, as the Lord has blessed us. There is never a shortage of money to fund projects. Right now we a promoting "Two Buildings, One Foundation". The "Two Buildings" are a completely new expanded fellowship hall for the youth along with a multitude of additional class rooms + a seminary, church, and orphanage in India. The "One Foundation" is Jesus Christ. Our church family is also sponsoring a program to encourage all the members (1300) to be debt-free (except for house and car) within 4 years. The Senior Pastor shared with us the story of Nehemiah 5, and told us that in order to be generous we have to first of all be out of debt. Jay, it is so wonderful! It is like a little heaven on earth. I truly can not think of a better way to start each week! We are encouraged to experience the true Sabbath Rest of Hebrews 4 that Christ has to offer. The pastor reminds us that there is no such thing as "cheap grace". Our salvation was paid for with the blood of our dear Savior! At the Adventist Church people were frequently falling asleep. I have never seen anyone fall asleep at the fellowship I now attend. Sunday's are the highlight of our week! It is SO different from when I was an Adventist. We truly dread when each Sunday comes to a close. Gilbert Jorgensen (Message edited by jorgfe on July 14, 2007) | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 74 Registered: 4-2007 |
EGW permeates every aspect of Adventism - removing her would kill the patient in that they have no life support system - the GOSPEL!. The only surgery that would not be fatal would be purely cosmetic. JONVIL | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1154 Registered: 4-2000  |
Would I do back? Of course not! In the case of the Worldwide Church of God, even though they went through significant changes in 1995, they eventually added speaking in tongues and salvation after death. Cults have an insatiable hunger and desire for the abnormal, the irregular, and the unorthodox. Former cultists (former Adventists included) need to assimulate with the Christian community to prevent further erosion of the Christian faith in their propensity and/or temptation toward the unbiblical, the odd, and sometimes even hysterical elements. In short, like ex-cons, we need Christian supervision. On a similar note, often times we may wonder what authentic regeneration really looks like. Someone aptly described how you can observe regeneration when an alcoholic husband finally pours his beer down the sink on Sunday morning and announces to his family, "Let's go to church!" Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jay_g Registered user Username: Jay_g Post Number: 11 Registered: 7-2007 |
Gilbert, Your description makes me want to join your Church! In my What if scenario I was assuming that the NEW church would become a Christ centered Church, like your Church is. However I forgot about the emotional baggage that would accompany a blow like that. This reminds me a lot of what's happening in Iraq, with the destabilization after the dictator was removed. As for my 1.5 million leaving numbers they are from official church numbers from 2005. http://news.adventist.org/data/2005/06/1120249432/index.html.en " Church membership grew from 10,939,182 at the beginning of 2000 to 13,936,932 at the end of 2004, Haloviak reported. However, he added, nearly 1.5 million left membership during the time period 2000 to 2005. "The bottom line for this quinquennium is that for every 100 accessions, more than 35 others decided to leave," he told delegates. "That total is considerably more than the 24 subtracted for every 100 added as reported at our last session" in 2000. " What I would like to know is what the numbers are in the United States, especially with English speaking churches. I think the local Church I used to attend must be down at least 75% from when I was a kid. The guest speaker (as reported by my Mother) a few weeks ago said that he had just done a massive baptism in South America. I think that effects the numbers too. If you had an existing church with 100 people then became a missionary and baptized 900 more in a 3rd world county came back and everyone left the original church, wouldn't that only look like a 10% drop on paper? | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 924 Registered: 10-2002  |
I've thought about this question before. I would love to help the Adventist family, I would love to worship with them and study with them. If the Spirit moved among them and brought repentence -- the kind of repentance Adventism has been fighting against ever since before 1844 -- then I believe God would likely call me to be among them. And my heart would go out to them. But I think I would never need to "be a member" of a church again. Membership? My membership is in Jesus Christ. Organizational membership can be convenient for some things, but when it becomes taught with any hint of spiritual "necessity", then it is putting our acceptance partially by sight & flesh instead of by faith & Spirit. All Christians no matter what "denomination" are all "members" of the same Body, and we are members of one another in Christ. The unity that is unwritten/unsigned/unseen is stronger than the unity that is visible/organizational. (Message edited by agapetos on July 14, 2007) | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 86 Registered: 4-2007 |
I agree with Dennis that there would be too many people with a desire for the 'distinctive' non-mainstream experience to really change. Those people NEED that sense of isolation and persecution. I would love it if they just dropped enough of the paranoia and hostility to make it easier to fellowship with my mother there once in a while, but I don't see it happening. Fear of the coming end times is a large part of what bonds them together. I have always been helpful to my mother, helping her with her SDA church projects. I have helped her with cataloging their library, redecorating their sabbath school rooms, and maintaining the church computer, reinstalling windows, installing new programs, upgrades, etc. Sheesh, I have even helped her out by filling in as a kindergarden Bible School teacher many times, as her church NEVER has enough volunteers for bible school, or anything else actually, but bible school was my limit for helping with any actual SDA church activity. (I had my own pastor's permission to do this, whether she had her SDA pastor's permission I never asked, I kind of doubt it. I managed to do it without violating my conscience by just teaching the kids bible stories, no Adventist doctrine. She accepted this as I would have refused to do it otherwise.) I won't even do that anymore. I never expected any thank you for helping out, but the outright hostility has gotten to be too much. I had started attending a monthly women's meeting with my mother at her church that met for the purpose of crafting or cooking together once a month. I attended twice. Then I wasn't welcome anymore, it seems some of the SDA women didn't like having a Catholic attend. (and no, I didn't go in flags flying wearing a 4" crucifix and a T-shirt with the pope's picture! UGH! I simply answered their questions about where I went to church, and replied to the inevitable invitations (politely) no, I wasn't interested in attending theirs. UGH!) This actually did hurt my mom a bit, I was surprised, she is usually so blind to SDA nonsense that she accepts rude behavior like that. As her church has shrunk from 100 down to about 25 (and its really worse than that since there were four local churches 30 years ago and now there is only one) the members that are left seem to be even more attached to the idea of Sunday laws and the time of trouble. They were recently wrapped up in expecting some big event on 7/7/7. I wonder if it happened? I can't even attend an SDA church potluck with my mother without someone openly attacking my church in front of me, knowing that I am an active member. That just always strikes me as incredibly rude behavior. They know I am there for my mother and have no interest in their opinions. I'm ranting a bit i suppose, but my point was that the sabbath and its connection to their view of the end times makes it extremely unlikely they would ever adopt more mainstream doctrines. Too many people thrive on that kind of doomsday teaching. My mother, I think, is just so convinced the SDA are right, she is afraid to even look at any other ideas. Even when they treat her badly, taking advantage of the fact she is about the only one left there that will take the cradle roll/kindergarten class or organize a bible school (often at her own expense). Even when they treat her family badly. For my mom's sake I wish they would reform themselves. For myself, I am very happy where I am and have no intention of leaving anyway. MarysRoses | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 87 Registered: 4-2007 |
You know, I'm reading over what I wrote and I realize that the craziness just seems to be never ending. Why is it always new and always an issue? Could it be that out of those 25 remaining members TWO, just TWO were actually there 30 years ago? The rest of the member ship seems to turn over completely every 3 or 4 years. They get a new pastor every 3 or 4 years,I think the last one only lasted 2 years. I attend my church at the same parish where I went to school as a kid. I know many people there my age I went to parochial school with. Sadly, many of the people that were the adults and leaders when I was a child have become elderly and some have passed away, but they are still many around. I have had the awesome privilege and joy to teach some of their grandchildren. Who would have thought that when I attended there as the only protestant kid in the school, lol! Its such a sense of continuity to stand in the classroom where I learned as a kid, and teach the next generation to love Jesus and love their faith. I have had two pastors in 25 YEARS. Does the instability at my mom's church feed the climate of fear and doom? Sometimes I wonder. (Message edited by marysroses on July 14, 2007) | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 78 Registered: 4-2007 |
Maryroses wrote: "As her church has shrunk from 100 down to about 25 (and its really worse than that since there were four local churches 30 years ago and now there is only one) the members that are left seem to be even more attached to the idea of Sunday laws and the time of trouble." The incredible shrinking church where only the dyed-in-the-wool historical Adventist members remain, which explains the overtly hostile anti- RCC/sunday laws rants. They live to be persecuted to death. The most unpleasant people I've ever had to associate with. But don't take it personally - they don't like each other either. JONVIL | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 589 Registered: 3-2001 |
I cannot even imagine the strife that would exist in such a scenario. Even if the church changed institutionally (which I do not ever see happen), there would be so many different factions within the existing organization that I fear any focus on Christ would be lost. Even in situations where a group of former Adventists who are "like minded" decide to meet together, there are potention problems because of the emotional baggage and inherent blind spots that exist among former cultists. I think it would be magnified ten fold in a situation where you had a situation where the change was imposed on some people who were quite comfortable with the former organization. So, in conclusion, I do not see myself ever going back to the Adventist church, no matter what form it took. Doug | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 378 Registered: 11-2005 |
MarysRoses -- that is a great testimony! Thank you so much for sharing it with us. I, too, got sick and tired years ago at all the bashing of Roman Catholicism, in a veiled attempt to lift up Adventism. And when anything Catholic would be brought up in lesson study, etc, it would always be in a very patronizing way. Here in Salt Lake City, Utah, the population is predominantly Mormon. The pastors of the church I attend, when they do speak about Mormonism, refer to it most of the time as the "indigenous religion". They compare points of faith, but never in a patronizing way. I have a October 1997 Adventist Review, page 2, with an article titled, "What Happened To The Mormons?" by William Johnnson. The article proposes to compare the two religions, but actually slams Mormonism with statements such as one about Joseph Smith had many wives while Ellen White had only one husband, etc. As a child, I attended Pioneer Memorial Church at Andrews University. At the time I attended Primary class, I remember a small poster being put up on the painted block wall in the hallway that specifically identified Adventism as the true church, and Mormonism as its counterfeit. After all, for everything true there has to be a counterfeit -- right? I now find this method of indoctinating us to be very disgusting. Gilbert Jorgensen (Message edited by jorgfe on July 14, 2007) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1155 Registered: 4-2000 |
Jonvil, So very true that they don't really like each other in those small SDA churches. One time, in a small Sabbath School class, I asked a wealthy SDA lady, "How are you this morning?" Amazingly, she was actually annoyed and replied to the effect that I should have known that she is fine as always. After all, her thinking was likely, "Look who I am and how I am dressed! Based on that alone, I would have to be fine." (smile) Seventh-day Adventists, being a very judgmental people, do not generally trust each other with negative information about their families. They must constantly lie to each other that they are doing "well" and "great" on their road to perfection. If they shared anything about a delinquent or troubling child, et cetera, they would be instantly judged as unfit parents. They would likely conclude that "the apple never falls far from the tree." Truly, some people are not much fun to visit with--especially when you sense that they don't really respect you anyway. Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on July 14, 2007) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1051 Registered: 9-2006  |
quote :"Seventh-day Adventists, being a very judgmental people" I caught that Dennis, sorry for half a quote, but that part rang a bell. Recently one of my Adventist friends visited me and since we have friends in common, he would start to criticize one or the other of them when I ask about them then he would catch himself. I was taken aback by it all, he would catch himself and modify his talk but then a few minutes later he would do the same thing. I gathered that he was in such a habit to this kind of thing that he couldn't help himself. I secretly wondered what my other friends would think if they knew they just got blistered. River | ||
| Blessed Registered user Username: Blessed Post Number: 48 Registered: 1-2007 |
Absolutely not. The emphasis needs to be on the cross and salvation through Christ only. I have just finished rereading Greg Taylor's book. The last chapter talks about what the Adventist church needs to do. It totally sums up my feelings on the topic. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6292 Registered: 12-2003  |
I would NOT go back. As Dennis stated so well above, people who have been shaped in a cultic mentality have to learn now to be "normal". They have to learn to interact with the Christian community, study the Bible with others who do not have their cultic background, learn how prayer and praise and worship and fellowship actually function in the Christian community. Further, they have to learn that when Jesus is the center of our lives, we can worship in true fellowship even when we disagree on secondary doctrinal specifics. It has been said, "You can't reform a cult." I wholeheartedly agree. As others have said above, if Adventism truly repented of its egregious errors, such a repentance would be a "death blow". Even if members regrouped and started new communities among those who are like-minded, I would not choose to join one. We KNOW from personal experience that we carry marks, questions, misunderstandings, a misshapen ideas of "normal" when it comes to Christianity and church. We would only carry those with us into new, re-grouped communities. We all have to be re-taught. It's much like people growing up in abusive households. Children who are raised on a "diet" of violence and abuse of any kind believe such behavior to be "nromal". They believe all families have these dynamics hidden away out of the public eye. They have trouble trusting other people in other settings. Adventists are the same. We truly do not know what "normal" is. Even if we transform our theology, we carry behaviors and cultural expectations that are far from normal. We learn "normal" and "Biblical" in settings with people who have not been damaged by the same cultic environment. For the same reasons FAF will never be a denomination, I would not re-join a "reformed" Adventist church. God asks us to leave behind the world from which He calls us to follow Him. When we look back after God calls us away, we compromise ourselves in the same way Lot's wife compromised herself. We are to walk toward Jesus, never toward an organization of people. Colleen | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 162 Registered: 10-2006 |
For me, it would be disobedient to return to the Adventist church. steve | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 344 Registered: 5-2007 |
This is a moot point anyway, I believe. The Adventist Church is irreformable IMHO. The "distinctives" are what makes it what it is and the us against them mentality. It won't change. It was based on an error(1844 time setting) and were it not for that error, it would't even be. The intolerance displayed in Adventism was one of the things that really irritated me. I got so tired of the Catholic bashing and found that the Catholics are not the "bad guys" the Adventists accuse them of being. In fact the Catholics are way more tolerant of Adventists than Adventists are of them. And the Mormon-bashing too. My son's best friend at the Adventist school he attended happened to be Mormon and got picked on all the time by the Adventist kids. My son said they would yell at his Mormon friend, "Why don't you move to Utah?" This behaviour really disgusted my son and was one of the reasons for him wanting to leave Adventism. I ask, where is the Christian love here, picking on a kid for being a Mormon and yelling "Why don't you move to Utah?" Is this Christian behaviour? | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 373 Registered: 5-2007 |
Also note that the changes in the Worldwide Church of God came shortly after its founder Herbert W. Armstrong died. Armostrong was not considered by them a "prophet" like EGW is by the Adventists. EGW has been dead 92 years and Adventism has not changed. I don't think it ever will. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 40 Registered: 7-2007 |
The pastor at the big non-denominational church I've been attending with my gentleman friend, in one of the series on Galatians; was talking about Paul warning the Galatians about not going back to the "elements of the world." (Gal. 4:3 & Gal. 4:9) He said that the "elements of the world" meant the idolatry that the people had formerly practiced before becoming Christians. The pastor pointed out that Paul was talking about both the literal idolatry of the Gentiles in Galatia and his own (Paul's) former adherance to the old covenant as a Jewish Pharisee. I think that the SDA church adheres to the "elemental things of the world," in almost every one of their doctrines, so if that church changed and became a "good" church, they'd have to get rid of almost every one of their doctrines! Dianne | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 32 Registered: 6-2007 |
I would never go back - I wouldn't even visit for one week, never. Laurie | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 163 Registered: 10-2006 |
"A fool is like a dog that returns to its own vomit" (somewhere in Proverbs, maybe ch 24) steve | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6317 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ohhh, Steve--that's hitting the nail on the head! Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1161 Registered: 4-2000 |
Reb, Herbert W. Armstrong considered himself an "Apostle" in the Worldwide Church of God. The current WCG people often refer to him as "the old man" without any respect nor any nostalgic feelings (smile). The WCG hierarchy maintained a very firm grip on the local churches--especially their money. In the old Armstrong days (before 1995), the WCG congregations were told not to start services until their pastor arrived--even if he was late. Apparently, the possibility of doctrinal disagreement among the congregation was uppermost in the minds of their hierarchy. All pastors now give a weekly report to the congregation from an email that Joe Tkach sends to all the pastors. They still seem to like a top-heavy church government. Their annual conference or campmeeting is still called a "festival" like in the old Armstrong days. Obviously, they didn't want to disconnect entirely from their past. Moreover, in yesteryear, most of the WCG churches met in rented quarters. Sometimes the meeting place changed even weekly to add confusion to the flock. All monies were sent to the headquarters in Pasadena--triple tithe, etc. The Pasadena office took care of all authorized local expenses and they paid all the local church bills. However, in the process, the hierarchy kept so much money that the local congregations had no resources to buy a church. This centralized monetary control was carried over into the current WCG. There was talk about it changing, but I don't know if it ever did. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6328 Registered: 12-2003 |
Very interestsing, Dennis. I didn't realize the central control still being exercised there. I really appreciate the facts you share--and the understated humor so often embedded in them! Colleen | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 61 Registered: 11-1999 |
I would never go back. If the SDA church renounced EGW as a prophet don't you think the same thing which happened after 1844 would happen again? I do. Strong personalities within the church would all make their pronouncements as to "why this happened" and the result would be the membership taking sides and branching off. Some would admit their error but others would begin to offer their version of a new lie to cover up why the old lie wasn't really wrong just misunderstood! The same institution would go on under a different name and a different "leader". | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 161 Registered: 10-2005 |
yeah too much baggage sitting in the pews,there would always be a EGW lurker trying to push thier agenda,blahhhh just the thought makes me squirm Dawn |
