| Author |
Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6289
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 3:59 pm: |     |
Very interesting thread.
River, I understand the feeling of hardness and resistance that creeps in when we keep bumping into Adventists who never see--and further, who argue or explain themselves in such a way that they entrench themselves in Adventism without seeing the gospel paradigm.
One of the things we as formers deal with, as we talk about our clearer and clearer view of what Adventism is, is an emotional phenomenon similar to what a person experiences when they go through a divorce. There really is a clear acknowledgement of the hardness and blindness and deceit that we MUST embrace if we are to go on and heal and become all-out Christ-followers.
I know that many people who are still within Adventism are offended when they read people "venting" about the craziness and deception that bound us. The observing Adventist feels betrayed, misrepresented, and "written off".
In fact, we all have to "write off" Adventism before we can come back and minister effectively to Adventists. As so many have said, it does no good to stay inside and minister if one appears to embrace Adventism. Further, we can't call people to the truth if we waffle about how bad Adventism is.
If we cannot fully know and express how bankrupt and deceptive it is, from Ellen on down, all we can do is argue theology. But theology isn't the point. Knowing the Lord Jesus is the point. I know that sometimes we sound "hardened" and maybe even angry. In fact, we sometimes are. Part of our grieving is to become angry at what we knew and experienced. We have to make a surgical break with it if we are ever to really become planted in truth.
After we left we had to refuse to read or listen to Adventist publications and broadcasts. It was too confusing; to emotionally upsetting--even spiritually "fogging". We had to call it evil and leave it alone.
God brought us back (obviously!) to minister to those questioning and leaving--but we couldn't have done it without going through that anger and "call a spade a spade" phase.
We still believe we have to call a spade a spade, but our internal feelings are not as vulnerable to it as they used to be. We can be a bit more "detached". God brings clarity as He brings healing.
Colleen |
Jonvil
Registered user
Username: Jonvil
Post Number: 73
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 4:39 pm: | |
River Wrote:
"There is one thing of witness that bypasses that communications breakdown and that is to use the words in thankfulness to God that we know we are saved and can rely on his word to that effect, I sometimes resort to just that witness, they do not confess that because of the IJ, I know it puts them in a tizzy but I am just impish enough to enjoy it even though I can hear teeth grinding.
River
P.S. Another thing to express is perfect peace in Jesus, they don't have it and that makes their teeth grind. So there are ways to communicate if you like to set their teeth on edge."
Interesting you would say this - that is what I've been doing. I never attack the Dis-stink-tives - never mention them - just keep holding up Jesus and the assurance of salvation we have NOW. I decry the RCC position of faith + works to forstall the 'yes buts' that are sure to come when righteousness thru faith alone in Christ alone is presented.
JonVil |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1045
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 4:46 pm: | |
Thank you colleen, I hit rock every once in a while and get to feeling sorry for myself and want to sit under a vine and wait to see what will happen to them. Then God wilts my vine.
There was some old prophet went and hid in the desert, can't remember who he was, the Lord sent an angel with food for him.
God never fails to strengthen me however undeserving I am. God is so faithful.
I am also thankful for this ministry of FAF, you don't know how many times I have been encouraged by this ministry and the folks that write on here.
River |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1046
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 4:57 pm: | |
Jonvil, when we break out in praise it causes the demons to run for cover and I believe it causes Adventist to go to muttering and digging and digging and muttering in their old bone yards and tossing dirt over their shoulders, there is a victory to be won and God didn't bring us all this way to be defeated.
So when they go to grinding their teeth and muttering you know you are getting somewhere.
River |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 372
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 5:22 pm: | |
River -- I just love your quote. That is great!
quote:So when they go to grinding their teeth and muttering you know you are getting somewhere.
Gilbert Jorgensen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1152
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 6:23 pm: | |
Gilbert,
I can well relate to your astute observation about the lack of expository preaching from Adventist pulpits. Regrettably, as a former departmental leader in Adventism, I preached alot of promotional sermons (e.g., at rallies, district meetings, regular worship services, symposiums, retreats, etc.). I preached more sermons than a local SDA pastor would preach (sometimes even three in one day). Frequently, the ministerial association would send out prepared sermons to remove any need to search the Scriptures personally.
Annoyingly, I still remember when I preached a pre-fab sermon, from the White Estate, entitled, "The Adventist Advantage" on the annual "Spirit of Prophecy" Sabbath. It really should have been entitled, "The Adventist Disadvantage." It was very professionally prepared by the apologists at the White Estate. I still remember how true and faithful I felt in preaching that sermon (likely akin to the pure feeling after confessing one's sins to a parish priest). I really felt like a pure Adventist in extolling Ellenolatry. It was all part of the self-gratifying idea of being "settled in the truth." The Lord has graciously forgiven me for deceiving many audiences.
The first Sunday morning that Sylvia and I went to church, we were most surprised to see so many cars that policemen were needed to direct the traffic at intersections. As Adventists, we had no idea of how many people actually attend church on Sunday, the weekly Easter. Indeed, expository preaching is a delight to hear. I like sermons that I can learn something from. After all, most of the things we learn in life we learn from others.
In closing, I would like to share a great quote from the late Dr. Donald Grey Barnhouse, longtime pastor of the Tenth Street Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia:
quote:I cannot put into words the hatred that I feel for Sabbatarianism. I hate it because I believe that it detracts from the glory of the risen Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that it puts stumbling blocks in the way of many simple believers and leads them back into legalism from which they were once and for all delivered by the death of our Savior...Just as I would sorrow to see a man caught in a quicksand, so I sorrow to see one trapped in Sabbatarianism. [Excerpt from "Exposition on Romans," Volume 4]
Dennis Fischer |
Bobj
Registered user
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 229
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 10:06 pm: | |
Dennis
Thank you for sharing the quote from Barnhouse.
Bob |
Lori
Registered user
Username: Lori
Post Number: 59
Registered: 11-1999
| | Posted on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 11:09 am: | |
I have found this thread very interesting. I particularly enjoyed reading the quote of David DePinho. It's a extremely accurate description of the Adventist mindset. I easily pictured my own self following those steps of assurance more times than I would like to admit.
Colleen accurately pointed out those to whom we CAN minister--those questioning and leaving.
And, several of you, hit the nail on the head about what causes them to think about what they believe. It's the peace and confidence we have in Christ which draws their attention. As an Adventist, these attributes in my husband and several other non-Adventist are what bounced around in my head. Leaving me wondering, how is it that this deceived person has more confidence in God, more peace in their soul than I who have "more truth" and "more light".
Unfortunately, my peace and confidence in Christ, brings forth a nasty reaction from my Adventist family members. |
Jonvil
Registered user
Username: Jonvil
Post Number: 79
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 11:43 am: | |
Lori wrote:
“Unfortunately, my peace and confidence in Christ, brings forth a nasty reaction from my Adventist family members.”
I know I'm stating the obvious here but...
The concept of the assurance of salvation by God’s grace thru faith alone in Christ alone is incomprehensible to most Adventists and attack it as if it were heretical. They feel their only safety lies in maintaining the externals which they vehemently defend. Simultaneously they cling to the IJ as a particularly important distinctive which requires, as a standard, absolute perfection in maintaining the externals in order to be ‘safe to save’, which they know they’re not-so there is no safety.
In the face of this how dare you claim you are saved
Your certainty is a rebuke to their uncertainty and they resent it.
JONVIL |
Magpie
Registered user
Username: Magpie
Post Number: 21
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 5:31 am: | |
Jonvil & Lori,
It is very interesting that you are mentioning peace. Because the couple I am working with both don't have it. They fight a lot (verbally)and are of all people most miserable. He is ready to leave the church, but she has been in it so long that she won't even discuss it.
Reminds me of putting a frog in cold water and putting the pot on the stove & turning up the heat. By the time the water gradualy gets hot, the frog gets used to it and gets cooked alive and doesn't even know it.
It is very sad, and as of yet we have not figured out a way to get thru the fog.
I read David DePinhos' testamony. I learned things I had not heard of before.
I notice when I talk to her about my Jesus and how sure I am of things, she begins to quote what she has learned from SDA verbatem, the exact same way every time.
I'm still praying for a breakthrough.
Magpie |
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