| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 135 Registered: 5-2007 |
I found this website. This is one of the best articles I have found. http://www.solidrock.net/library/anderson/sermons/new.testament.giving.php Let me know what you all think. I was impressed. Thanks, Jim | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 329 Registered: 5-2007 |
I was impressed too, Jim. It makes some good points. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1151 Registered: 4-2000  |
Excellent Bible-based article, Jim. It would have been illegal for Jesus to extract a tithe from his followers. He was from the tribe of Judah--not Levi. Likewise, Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin, not Levi. The early Christian leaders were smart enough to know that they were not Levites. We give because Christ gave to us first. The Christian simply gives because he has been given and forgiven much. Generosity is not the quantity of the gift, but the quality of the heart. With Spirit-led or grace giving, the Christian no longer yearns for the laws of Moses to finance the Great Commission. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 330 Registered: 5-2007 |
So do Adventists think they're Levites? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6278 Registered: 12-2003  |
Adventists think they are the "new" Israel. The tribes don't matter...the fact that they are Israel is all that matters. Because Adventists comprise today's Israel, this status qualifies them as the remnant church—God's only true people. Amazing, really. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1036 Registered: 9-2006  |
Seems to me they (Adventist) have joined themselves too Israel instead of being grafted in through Abrahamic faith. Very good article on giving, as I drove home from church last night I thought along this line; this flesh will die because of sin in it, the flesh is under sentence of death, if it had no sin it would not die but it does and it will. This article really spoke to my heart about giving, my flesh always says “you are giving too much, reduce it, my flesh is a tightwad, if I reduced it to a single dollar it would still say “too much” “give nothing” “ then I will be satisfied” but then as sure as I am born it would try to extract from a poor Christian brother, the flesh cannot be satisfied. When I write out a check in support of this ministry and others of my own church my flesh literally cringes, I don’t know how it is with you folk but this is an area in which I never fail to have a fight in bringing this flesh under control. I sometimes suspect the big deal over tithing is the flesh saying “too much”, if we give feeling forced that is just as bad and the churches have no right to extort money for their projects by laying a burden of guilt on the people. Sometimes and in some situations we let our tender consciences toward God allow us to easily become targets of extortion, I think it goes on all the time. In some ways I think many times we heap to ourselves plenty and allow the church to suffer because of our meager gifts. It is with these thoughts in mind that we also must be aware that we have to crucify this old flesh because in the area of finances it will scream and moan the loudest and you can be sure of that. I think it is far too easy to go to church and raise our voices in praise for what the Lord has done and allow our real feelings to reflect in meager giving. A person recently said to me “those Pastors need to go out and get themselves a job” shame on such thinking. Not what the word says is it? Being able to crucify the flesh and at the same time showing good common sense in not falling victim to extortion just seems to be the fine line I am trying to walk at this time, I am speaking for me and no one else. That is the reason I try to start with 10% and then add to that at this time, not because I believe in following the old covenant. I may be able to adjust the way I give at some time in the future and I want to stay pliable in the Lords hands. It is my opinion that giving is one way we can crucify this old flesh or fail to crucify it for that matter. I do know I need to adjust my heart and my thinking to God’s word. I know one thing I sure do welcome your rebuke and correction on ways to handle it and folks I am serious as a sore tooth. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3971 Registered: 3-2004  |
I have written on here how I feel about tithing(memories of my days as an adventist-shudder, shudder). But I do listen to God and give whatever He puts in my heart and when it comes to helping others, only God and I know about it. I do not criticize anyone who gives a tithe, as long as that is what they know God wants from them. Give cheerfully and that is what I do. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6283 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, I agree with you. I am more and more convinced that God asks us to trust Him at very basic levels of existence and subsistence. He has said that He blesses us so that we can give. I have no problem with your using 10% as a base line. Giving 1/10 is not sin—unless it's required of us by a church that attempts to use the Old Covenant to enforce our giving for its prosperity—or unless we attempt to use it to extract blessings from God. In those cases, tithe would no longer be an act of faith—and if we do anything under compulsion or against our consciences, it is sin. Anything not of faith is sin. Colleen (Message edited by colleentinker on July 12, 2007) | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 140 Registered: 5-2007 |
I have attempted to combine and consider all the proper attitudes as given in scripture regarding the entire subject of stewardship. I also feel that ones giving should be deliberate. Meaning, that there is some sort of system of "resonable" consistancy "in keeping with our income". My impression from Paul's counsel is to use "The right motives and common sense". Just as important. I think our giving needs to be "pliable and responsive". So , I have considered adopting the following format. I speak for myself here. But I wanted to share it as an example, just as River has done. BTW River, I agree with you. Take a baseline % from "net" in hand take home income, refund income, cash gifts or other cash income. (I say net because I personally feel taxes are part of the ministry of God appointed servants of Government.) You decide the proper %. Then , divide it in half. Half goes to Church Ministry support.(Which may include more than just one church or more than one form of Ministry.) The other half goes to the those in need :Poor/Homeless/Human needs/Famine relief/world aid etc....or to any other personal human needs. The point here is that these funds are dispersed consistantly. Then in other areas of day to day life, when we see a need, from our abundance we give what we can and are willing from the heart. Be it time, possessions,money, helps,teaching, encouragements, projects whatever. This flexible area is a day to day response as God prospers us and brings people into our lives. The key here is NO Guilt trips. For the one who is poor in funds, they give accordingly, not in competition or compulsion, nor in undo hardship. This is my proposal for myself. I have taken this to God in prayer. I welcome feedback. Thanks ,JIm | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3975 Registered: 3-2004 |
Jim, That sounds good to me. It is what you and God have decided and you have prayed about it. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6291 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, what a great idea. Giving is entirely between you and God, and He will confirm and lead your decisions. As the years pass, He may even "morph" your giving. In Christ, nothing about our lives is static! The only completely consistent, unchanging thing in a Christ-follower's life is Jesus Himself. He and His love will never change or leave us. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1047 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jim Quotes, ”I also feel that ones giving should be deliberate. Meaning, that there is some sort of system of "resonable" consistancy "in keeping with our income". My impression from Paul's counsel is to use "The right motives and common sense". Just as important. I think our giving needs to be "pliable and responsive". Jim, I just want to applaud you on your thinking. In another place you said ” Then in other areas of day to day life, when we see a need, from our abundance we give what we can and are willing from the heart. Be it time, possessions,money, helps,teaching, encouragements, projects whatever. This flexible area is a day to day response as God prospers us and brings people into our lives. Again I want to applaud this kind of thinking. Here is the way it has been with me, I used to believe in the tithe system, my wife and I fought over it, so I said O.K. and I refused to fight over the matter. Later I changed my mind on the tithe through Bible study and as I grew closer to the Lord I wanted to give and to serve. To me that 10% sounded reasonable as a baseline to start giving consistently and consistence was the key word here, so I started out with 10% as my baseline, but only as a base line. Since that time I have never given ONLY that 10%, I really don’t know how much I have given, but I do know it has been far more than that baseline 10% and I got to where I never even pay any attention to that 10% anymore. I have gotten to where that 10% is sort of like my savings account, it is untouchable but I find more pleasure in giving out of my meager monthly allowance that I do the 10%, when I give out of that allowance I begin to crucify the old flesh and find so much peace and joy in my giving because out of that meager allowance I also have to make it a month on whatever other materials I need. The little things that can eat an amount up. Now here is the great thing about that, that money seems to just multiply and I end up adding to my savings out of that. This has worked for me, it takes care of the common sense part, the crucifying the flesh part and brings a great blessing. Now I am not suggesting 10% baseline to anybody else, nor am I in any way hinting at how anyone else should do it, just saying what works for me. Not many people gives themselves an allowance out of their own money, it just works for me. By the way I give the 10% to my church, that way I feel that the light bill’s and mortgage on the church is paid, then I am free to give what else I can to whoever I feel like, but most of the above the 10% also goes to the church because we support many missionaries. Like I said, I am only telling what works for me, I can’t NOT use what at least I think is common sense. So this small allowance I give myself for my needs has to support my giving, My spending, and has to last all month and it has done that somehow and don’t ask me how. Not only that but the crazy method I have of giving to other ministries out of that meager allowance has brought me great joy and peace with my giving. Keep up the good work Jim. River | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 376 Registered: 11-2005 |
Actually tithing, as implemented by the Adventist denomination, has a very interesting history! See http://www.truthorfables.com/Tithing.htm
I'm sure Dennis can enlighten us on the details  And while your at it don't forget to bring a "sin offering and a trespass offering" -
In my searching for info I ran across some fascinating reading with a lot of good SDA church history, http://www.giveshare.org/churchhistory/historysdcog/history6.html and http://www.giveshare.org/churchhistory/historysdcog/history4.html, with interesting quotes such as
Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 377 Registered: 11-2005 |
I reread
In what way is this different from the sale of indulgences? Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jay_g Registered user Username: Jay_g Post Number: 10 Registered: 7-2007 |
I was listening to the "Ground 7 News" podcast yesterday. I just discovered it last week and I listened to 3 or 4 episodes. They had a segment called "Where does your Tithe money Go?" Then they had people who gave one line opinions about it, like "I don't care where it goes because I give it to God, and it's no longer mine". Then they had someone from the GC explain in detail how it worked, up to a certain point it seemed like a reasonable system, then he started explaining how it wasn't good to tithe to the local church. The reason had something to do with 54% of tithe coming from North America. He then went into detail about how they were in the process of re-evaluating what is and is not OK to use tithe for, certain kinds of Missionaries you can give tithe money too other it seems you can't. He mentioned specifically the "Counsel of Ellen White"! He also talked about how there is no theological argument for His secretary being paid with Tithe Money but a Church Secretary can't. This was the one segment of Ground 7, that really bothered me. They also had a segment on how 29% of SDA women have been abused, and they did what I think was a good job at explaining how sometimes you have to leave. God forgives a sinner, but you don't have too. I really honestly didn't realize other churches didn't Tithe until I started reading this forum about a month ago. I've gone to a Baptist Church many times and never noticed that they didn't refer to tithe during the offering. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1048 Registered: 9-2006 |
Someone mentioned that they were levied for a certain amount from the Adventist church, I had never heard of that, could some explain that? Tithing: There is an envelope that is purchased from Christian printers I think, on it is says "Tithes/offerings" inside the envelope you can specify what it is intended for, I think it is a generic envelope but I have never heard the words "take up a tithe", it is always "take up an offering" although the AOG does believe in the tithe, I think in later years they have been attacked on it so much it is not even mentioned any more. I am going to ask my Pastor about the AOG's position on it and his position. At any rate the Adventist tithe system seems to be completely foreign to any system I ever heard, I never heard a stink on it till I came on here. River | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 144 Registered: 5-2007 |
River, If you don't mind my asking, Do you attend a Assembly Of God Church? That is the Church I have been visiting the past couple months as a guest in support of my oldest son who has joined that church after being baptized last month. I have been studying their doctrines. I note they are in flux on a couple issues. That is a good thing. Open mindedness. So far they have been very accepting of me. No pressures. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1930 Registered: 10-2004  |
Gilbert, Wow, at that first link to giveshare.org, there is part of a letter by EGW that is not published by the White Estate:
No wonder it's not published! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 14, 2007) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1932 Registered: 10-2004 |
I moved my above post to this thread, where it is more on-topic. Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1050 Registered: 9-2006 |
Yes Jim, An assembly of God, It is a rather small church. They follow beliefs closest to my own. Of course in all these churches the congregation will vary in how they treat people,but here they are very friendly and welcome anyone. Generally the pastor sets the tone. You wouldn't have pressure here either. Good news on your son being baptized Jim. River |
