| Author | Message | ||
| Jay_g Registered user Username: Jay_g Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2007 |
For the last 10 or 15 years I've largely tried to ignore all forms of Christianity except from political talk radio, I used to listen to a lot of Sean Hannity. Over the past month or so I've been reading lots of stuff from former Adventists and other groups who teach the "real Gospel" and I feel now for the first time that many many more people understand the "Real Gospel" than I ever imagined would. This has lead me to thinking a lot about the 10 commandments. I know that no one can speak for all Christians, but if one believes that the 10 commandments are part of an outdated covenant, why do they seem so important to other Christians? I don't think the display of the 10 commandments on tablets in homes, and public buildings is unique to Adventists & Jews is it? What about the statue removed from the court in Alabama a few years ago? http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/21/cnna.commandments.debate/index.html There seemed to be a wave of people, evangelical Christians who believed it should stay. People say that the 10 commandments is the basis of American Law. Yet how many of the 10 are really against the law? 3 of 10, kill, steal, perjury? My recent understanding is that Christianity is it's purest form teaches that the 10 commandments are part of the old law, the old covenant, yet it seems to me that many still hold it as a supernatural instruction from God written in stone, that should be displayed everywhere? What am I missing? Jay | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 786 Registered: 7-2004  |
Because they are a concise, easy-to-remember list. People like to have something to measure against, not necessarily to see if they are saved, but to make sure they are pleasing God. While it's true 9 of the 10 should still be evident in a Christian's life, I think the emphasis on the 10 tends to make people forget it is the Holy Spirit working through Christians rather than our efforts. And it also makes people forget that being pleasing to God entails so much more than the 10 - i.e. the higher standard of loving others as God loves us, not necessarily just refraining from the most offensive behaviors. | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 149 Registered: 7-2000 |
Well said, Raven. Thank you. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 363 Registered: 11-2005 |
A good Adventist friend of mine has a rather interesting spin on the Old and New Covenant. His position is that it is the exact same law, and that the only difference is that it is "written in the heart by the Holy Spirit" under the New Covenant. That way none of the law, including the Sabbath Commandment, changes. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jay_g Registered user Username: Jay_g Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2007 |
We have said that within SDA "Faith + Something = Salvation". Within evangelical Christianity only the acceptance of the gift of Christ's sacrifice which is "faith = Salvation". However if one has faith in Christ one tries to please God. So one tries to please God by following the 9 of the 10 commandments? This was always where I had a hard time with other Churches and the stumbling block I had as an SDA who didn't believe in EGW. So now that I have accepted for the first time in my life that the truth is that the sabbath is Christ not a day of the week. There is that "problem" of the stone tablet that says remember not just a Sabbath but gets very specific about what day and how it is kept. If it's part of an obsolete covenant, wouldn't the other 9 be void also? I don't think anyone would argue that killing, stealing and perjury are Ok now! I'm preparing myself to come out of the "closet" so to speak, with the truth of the New Covenant, but I need to close the holes in all of my questions, before I can address the questions of others. I expect to be "talking with the Pastor" soon, and I really need to make sure I know what I believe and how to confront his dismissal of my beliefs. I watched "Called to be Free" this morning, and I felt really empowered. When I was in (SDA)College we had a saying "Don't rock the boat when you are inside the boat". Here is a story of people who really rocked the boat from inside. The movie is available for free online... http://www.lhvm.org/vid_ctbf_med.htm It's about how the worldwide Church of God dismissed its founder and found the Gospel, Awesome story. | ||
| Bigal Registered user Username: Bigal Post Number: 68 Registered: 9-2006  |
Jay_g, Here is how I reconciled it. I believe that 9 of the 10 are reiterated in the New Testament. The greatest commandments of love God with all your heart... and love your neighbor as yourself are seen in the 9 restated commandments in the New Testament. Someone may be able to fill in here what is missing. I am not yet able to explain what I am learning in a well written out statement with quotes. An interesting side note to the above discussion. I spent over a week with my in-laws who are all still SDA. Of course Friday night and Saturday they watch 3ABN. I believe I heard Doug Bachelor state that he believes SDAs to be "spiritual Israel" and therefore the old covenant still stands. Does this sound like his teachings? I then guess this is how the 10 commandments in full are still valid to him. Alan | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 23 Registered: 1-2007 |
Yes the old covenant has been done away with when Jesus was crucified on the cross. Nine of the ten commandments are moral laws and are carried over into the new covenant and taught by Jesus, Apostles and Prophets of how we should live and have happy lives. Raven is right that they are written on a christians heart and because morality today is so low that christians want them displayed as so the non-christian will see them and think twice about what they want to do and change their ways. I guess by doing away with the 10c's that will do away with religion. How wrong they are! Religion is based on our personal relationship with Jesus not the 10c's or building we congregate in. Gail | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3954 Registered: 3-2004  |
I cannot remember where it is, but there is a text that that says something about us doing a work God prepared for us from the beginning. Because we have the Holy Spirit in us, when we accept Christ, we do what he tells us to do. We are not perfect and sometimes, more often that not, we do some of our old sinful behaviour. It is my experience that I have to recognize the charater defects first and own them as mine before God takes them away. When he takes them away, it is not a once deal where that one defect is gone, to bother me no more. It is a daily, minute by minute process. The old covenant showed us our sin, but could not atone for it. Jesus was/is the atonement for our sins. The new covenant says to love the Lord thy God with all our heart, all our soul, all our strength and all our mind and to love our neighbor as our selves. With the Holy Spirit there we do not want to do any thing that would hurt Jesus or our neighbors. It looks a lot like the Old Covenant, but now it is written on our hearts with a higher standard. I am just learning how The Holy Spirit works in my life. I am thankful He is there to teach me. He is so very awesome. Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1919 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hi Jay, You wrote:
The other 9 ARE void. But that does NOT mean that it's OK to murder, steal, etc. The New Covenant (Testament) tells us not to murder, steal, etc.--therefore, it's not OK. In other words, the reason we are to refrain from stealing is not because the Ten Commandments tell us to, but because the New Covenant tells us to. For example, the New Covenant tells us in Ephesians 4:28 to refrain from stealing, and in fact gives us an even higher standard than the Ten Commandments do: "He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need." (Ephesians 4:28 NASB.) Also, an additional point is that the Law was not only the Ten Commandments (literally, in the Hebrew, "Ten Words") but actually contains 613 commandments. So if someone insists on saying, "Why do you only keep 9 of 10?" you can ask them, "Why do you only keep 10 of 613?" The fact is, though, like I said above, we are not supposed to keep ANY of the 613 commandments in the Law (the entire Law, all 613 commandments, including the "Ten Words," is obsolete and has been abolished)--we are supposed to obey the teachings of the New Covenant and the Holy Spirit Himself who indwells all born again believers. In a post on a previous thread, Brian3 posted the following quote, which should be very helpful in understanding this issue:
Also, the following study may be helpful: http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/studies/covenants/covenants1.html Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 08, 2007) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1017 Registered: 9-2006  |
Quote: "Because we have the Holy Spirit in us, when we accept Christ, we do what he tells us to do." That Dianna, is a huge, huge statement within itself I think. Dianna, I think that is the key to not only understanding the old covenant but in understanding the new covenant. Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. If on the other hand one is not being led by the Spirit then does he have a claim on the inheritance in Christ Jesus? Dianna I have been learning how the Holy Spirit works in my life for 35 years, hears hoping you are a faster learner that me. Yes, Christianity does have the look and feel of the old covenant, but all things are made new in Christ Jesus,we slip, we fall, but we are not condemned, we get up again and go a little further and look for a sure hope, we get knocked down but we are not out for the count, Jesus just picks us up, pores in the oil, gives us cold water to drink and lays himself across the sheep gate to guard against all enemies. It is not the letter of the Law, but new life in Christ. You got it kid, you hang on to that. Those who broke the Law were condemned to die, we who are alive in Christ Jesus are not condemned. Thank God for Jesus Dianna. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3956 Registered: 3-2004 |
River, I am a work in progress, thanks to God and the Holy Spirit. Every day is a learning process. Diana | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 504 Registered: 11-2004 |
The 10 commandments should have no relation to the believer. They are called the ministry of death in 2 Corinthians 3. The new covenant is not without commands. We are to follow the leading of the Spirit and in 1 John 3 it says we are to love one another with agape love. This more than covers any morality from the old covenant. The new covenant is a new agreement all together. | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 505 Registered: 11-2004 |
Jay_g, Thanks for that link! I so needed to hear that today. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6253 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jeremy, thank you for quoting Brian3's earlier quote. That is such a succinct summary of this issue. The 10 Commandments are void for a Christ-follower. Morality, however, does not originate in the law. It originates in God Himself. In the new covenant, He writes the Law on our hearts by literally living in us Himself. He places His moral awareness and conviction and commitment in us. Learning to live by the Spirit means learning to let Him teach us what the Law used to teach imperfectly before the Perfect came. 2 Corinthians 3 says that to this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil covers the heart. Only in Christ is the veil taken away. The 10 Commandments are not adequate to cause people to turn from sin, whether in Israel or today. Only by looking at the cross and at what Jesus did do we have the ability to turn from sin. The 10 Commandments were never about reducing sin--they were given so sin would increase and drive hopeless sinners to understand their need for a Redeemer (see Romans 5:20; 3:20; 7:7-8; Gal. 3:19). The law pointed toward Jesus. Now we have Jesus Himself--and He convicts us of sin and brings us to righteousness. If we look to the law, we'll be mired in sin. If we look to Jesus and His death and resurrection, we'll find forgiveness and freedom. The principles of the law are eternal because God is eternal—the law itself, God's creation, was temporary and was fulfilled and superceded in Jesus Himself. And yes, Jay, there really is much confusion about this issue in Christianity. Indeed, replacement theology that says the church replaces Israel as the recipient of His OT promises tends to go hand-in-hand with carrying the law over as a rule of faith and practice for Christians. Obviously, there is much from the OC that is transferred to the NC, but it is a NEW covenant with new terms, not a continuation or further expansion of the old. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1147 Registered: 4-2000  |
THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH Are the many reiterated OT moral laws in the NT a "ministry of death" as well? Of course they are! They haven't lost their punch at all. If we refuse to obey them, we are doomed to hell forever. This fact sounds very deadly and serious to me. However, God's elect are always bent toward joy and obedience anyway. While sin still remains in the regenerated life, it no longer REIGNS. The good and godly life comes with His divine calling and election through the indwelling Spirit. Even though the New Covenant has an even longer LIST of moral "do's and don't's" than the Old Covenant had, we do not earn the gift of salvation through law-keeping nor through any other human effort. Indeed, salvation is a gift to be received, not a goal to achieved. Importantly, "Christ redeemed us from the CURSE of the law" (Gal. 3:13), not from our duty to obey His moral directives. It is important to note what the Bible does say as well as what it does not say. For example, nowhere in Scripture are we directed to forget, disobey, or ignore obeying God's moral laws. The Spirit-led life always creates obedient believers. This is the obedience of true faith. Faith without works is dead (see James 2:17). Christ-followers bear good fruit. The NT list of vices is very comprehensive in case anyone is thinking that the Christian life somehow short circuits moral obligations. The OT moral laws reiterated in the NT are basically unchanged from the Old Testament. In fact, by Jesus enhancing some of them gives them even more weight and relevance for Christian faith and practice. All in all, murder is still murder, stealing is still stealing, honoring parents is still honoring parents, coveting is still coveting, and lying is still lying. Christians are not a lawless community. Believers on both sides of the Cross have always delighted in God's moral directives. The Spirit-led life makes obedience a joyful and meaningful reality. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 921 Registered: 10-2002  |
I don't want to get into this one too deeply, but the first few letters of your post, Dennis, reminded me of a phrase that stuck out at me from somewhere in Paul's writings -- "obedience to the gospel" I think it was in the context of God's calling the Gentiles through Paul to the obedience of the gospel. I think that not only sums up things, but goes above and beyond all things that came before. I haven't been able to tend to the "apostles & prophets foundation" thread I started last week, but one thought smacked me across the head as Paul described the foundation of the church to the Ephesians: He did *not* say that the church was founded on the law & prophets. He kept the prophets and put it with the foundation of the apostles' witness to the risen Messiah. But the church isn't built on the Law -- I believe he deliberately left it out. I praise God for opening my eyes to His awesome grace and to the all-sufficient life and ministry of the Holy Spirit... in Adventism I heard so many people struggling to reconcile "law and grace" or "law and gospel", and there were endless discussions about how to keep people being moral -- all because we couldn't let grace be what the gospel said it was. That would be too dangerous. We didn't know the power of the gospel. We didn't know that the Spirit is sufficient and He won't let us fall out of His hand. Somewhere in Philip Yancey's book, "What's So Amazing About Grace?", he quoted someone who said that if your preaching of the gospel isn't arousing objections of giving too much grace, then you're not preaching the true gospel. The true gospel's preaching will always arouse objections that it is giving too much grace, that it could give license to this or that. That's what the door of God's grace looks like. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6259 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ramone, I like this sentence: "We didn't know that the Spirit is sufficient and He won't let us fall out of His hand." So true. The word "obedience" caused me no end of trouble for the first year or two after we started attending Trinity. I had gotten to the place where I realized my obeidence wasn't a part of the salvation picture, so when I heard people talking about "obeying" I had powerful knee-jerk reactions to it and struggled to understand what they meant. I've finally come to understand that a Christ-follower is obedient to Jesus. We are obedient NOT to a law, and we are not obedient for the purpose either of being saved or of staying saved. Our salvation is a done deal. Now we are obedient to Jesus, not to our minute interpretations of law or moral commands in either testament. As Christ-followers our obedience is more accurately described as submission to Him. Now we submit our confusion, our temptations, our impulses and desires and passions to Him as we face them. We submit them and ask Jesus to keep us faithful, to give us His power, to make us willing to do His will and to be all we need. This submission equals obedience to Jesus. We allow Him to work in us "to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Ephesians 2:13). We are no longer working toward victory; we are "working" FROM victory, as Clay Peck says. We are secure; our obedience on this side of being born again is submitting to living by the Holy Spirit instead of trying to be in control by our own will power. Obedience is very much alive in the life of a Christ-follower, but it has a completely different connotation and denotation than the word "obedience" had for me as an Adventist. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1148 Registered: 4-2000 |
The Holy Spirit is the great Enabler. As the late Adrian Rogers aptly put it, "God changes our WANTER." At the point of regeneration, our WANTER is suddenly changed to be in agreement with God. We become an entire NEW CREATION. Our dead spirit comes to life--the gift of eternal life here and now. As in the case of Paul on the road to Damascus, SUDDENLY his choices were the same as God's choices. Yes, they were still Paul's choices, but from a converted (changed) heart. The Savior he hated a minute ago, he now adored and loved. Obviously, our sovereign God knows all too well that unless he steps in and does something first to our "wanter," we would NEVER desire Jesus. How can we ever thank Him enough for saving our soul?
Dennis Fischer | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1027 Registered: 9-2006 |
I can't argue with that Dennis, I suppose you read my story. Yes, how can we ever thank him enough? River | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 922 Registered: 10-2002 |
Colleen, I SO know what you're talking about with "knee-jerk reactions" to words like "obedience" and "law"! I had the same knee-jerk reaction to the word "truth" for a long time as well. It was so wonderful the day that I realized I truly loved Truth!  And that I could and do delight in obeying Him. God has removed all the heaviness from the way His words were corrupted. He truly restores "what the locust has eaten"! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6268 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ramone, I like that thought: "God has removed all the heaviness from the way His words were corrupted." That describes my experience. Colleen | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 262 Registered: 7-2005  |
Jay-g wrote: "I'm preparing myself to come out of the "closet" so to speak, with the truth of the New Covenant, but I need to close the holes in all of my questions, before I can address the questions of others. I expect to be "talking with the Pastor" soon, and I really need to make sure I know what I believe and how to confront his dismissal of my beliefs." My response: I really resonate with your desire to be able to calmly and succinctly respond with intelligent answers to the objections you know your pastor and others will raise, when you come out of the closet. I have found that it helps me greatly to read this forum and see how others have done this. I've been reading and studying this material for almost two years now, and the materials put out by Dale Ratzlaff, Mark Martin, Dirk Anderson, and others. Because I am much better at writing than at speaking my thoughts, I have prepared several written responses to various tough challenges that Adventists raise. One piece I have written covers the topics of the Sabbath and the New Covenant. You are welcome to use any part of this to help with your own answers: http://honestwitness.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/asabbathjourneywasgodslawabolished_hw.pdf Honestwitness | ||
| Blessed Registered user Username: Blessed Post Number: 47 Registered: 1-2007 |
Jay, Have you read Greg Taylor's book Discovering the New Covenant. I think it is a 10 when it comes to understanding the Old and New Covenants as well as some of the scripture verses that have been misinterpreted by the Adventist Church. I highly recommend it. Blessed | ||
| Godssonjp Registered user Username: Godssonjp Post Number: 42 Registered: 1-2007 |
Honestwitness, With your permission, I have saved a copy of your written response. I also have trouble articulating what I wish to say at times. I haven't had the opportunity to "tell", in detail, why I left the Seventh-day Adventist church. As excited as I am about "explaining" myself, I also kinda dread doing it. Especially to those who are very knowlegeable about SDA beliefs. Funny, I have been in contact with many SDA freinds since I left but the opportunity hasn't presented itself yet. Or, maybe I missed it. I don't know. If you don't mind, I'd like to use some or part of your letter with some of the other qoutes, texts, and letters I have collected and compile them into a usuable "reference guide" that I can use when I'm ready to have that "talk" with my SDA friends and others...When the opportunity comes. Thanks. | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 263 Registered: 7-2005 |
Sure. Take what you want and may it be a blessing to you and to those with whom you communicate. Honestwitness |
