| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 129 Registered: 5-2007 |
I have been reading Apostle Paul's writings, the key passages , repeatedly. Paul tells us that the Written Letter of the Law is done away with , and that we live by The Spirit. Hebrews 8:10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. God's words quoted above speak of His laws written on our minds and hearts. This is an old debate. What keeps happening for me is that so many examples of what sin was, is and continues to be defined as leads me back to the definition of sin as being the law itself. Yet I see other passages that say otherwise. Such as shadows, and sacrifices. In Ratzlifs (sp) book he points out that there were no division of law groups argued in the Bible. (Ceremonial, Health, Moral). That SDA inserted that concept to prove a position. Yet, on this forum, I have seen that divisional argument used in reverse to establish a clause why we can safely ignore the "designated" Ceremonial/Shadow law of the fourth commandment "Sabbath", and that the other 9 laws were reinstated as being valid because they are moral and 24/7 whereas the Sabbath is not 24/7. This is an extra Biblical proposal as far as I am able to determine so far. Now , I clearly see where Paul states: Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Whoa ! Did he just say sins? Did he just say raging fire? Romans 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." Thus , I keep circling over my own tow line in reasoning this out. I define what sin is by the law, and other passages indicate that I am no longer obligated to keep the same law that defines sin. I also ask myself. Just what freedom do we have now that we did not have before? Has anything actually changed? Do we get a free pass on our behaviour problems? Does God actually tolerate sin now when He did not before? Are some "levels" or "forms" of sin tolerated now? Just what is being said here, what's going on? I see people in so many words making allusions to new basis of being at peace in Christ "just as they are", yet never really coming right out and spelling that out. Just what is the fine print on that "Get out of jail free" card say? Not being frivolous. I really am trying to get a handle on this Liberty, Freedom, No Condemnation concept. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1009 Registered: 9-2006  |
Jim, I am sure that many could answer this question better that I could but since I am on this morning I would like to give it a try. Sin is the same that it has always been since Adam, it will always be sin until it is banished by the Lord himself. What the Law could not do is save us from our sins, now I think I know what the problem is here Jim, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I think what you are having trouble with is the mechanics of it, in other words, how it works. I told you before and you agreed we have something in common about logic. But before I try to help you with this, I want to know if I am thinking along the right lines. Is this the problem Jim? The mechanics of it? River | ||
| Luzisbornagain Registered user Username: Luzisbornagain Post Number: 35 Registered: 7-2007 |
hmm, those are good questions Jim. I wonder the same. how does it work. I think that's what Jim is asking, about the mechanics of this new covenant. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1012 Registered: 9-2006 |
I am going to try to approach this problem another way. How can imperfection inherit perfection, logic would tell us that an impurity injected in a purity would then make the purity, impure. Just as we make transistors today with a process called doping. The dopant used results in a n-p-n or p-n-p and this makes a useful device. Now logic would tell us that God is pure and perfect and if “Doped” with sin he would no longer be a pure and perfect being and logic would also tell us that this is why he cannot stand sin nor can ever “stand” sin and remain “Pure”. Unlike the pure silicon used in transistor making which is still only 99.999% pure he is 100% pure and without sin. So we have a problem, how do we get to be in heaven where there are no impurities? Unlike the un-logical belief of Adventist that Jesus cleanses the heavenly temple, there is no cleaning to be done for that is where God dwell’s and so it is a logical impossibility. Imperfection cannot inhabit perfection, if it did it would become doped and God would become doped via the dopant of sin, Impossible says logic. So here we are in all our impurities, would anybody deny that statement? Would anybody deny that is has been from the day Adam was disobedient? So say the Adventist, “we must fulfill God,s Laws, worship on Saturday, don’t eat cheese, have pure mind and pure thoughts, develop perfect character , but folks, that does not work for the harder we try the more imperfection we see, obey the Big Ten then? Well, that doesn’t fly in the in the face of logic either, we have already broke at least one of them, once one breaks a law of a pure and Holy God, its already done, so the Adventist law keeping isn’t possible or logical. So if keeping the already broken Law can’t save us and we cannot develop a perfect character no matter how hard we try, and we remain imperfect and will die imperfect how in the world are we as logical beings going to get from here to there. Adventism holds no logic whatsoever and E.G. White was illogical beyond insanity for her way would have us doping God which is a logical impossibility. Enter Jesus, unlike the Adventist Jesus, the real Jesus had no sin and was never in danger of having sin, if he had any sin at all, Just one little bit, he would no longer have been Jesus for he is God our maker. 100% man and 100% God=Jesus, not +Jesus=Jesus. God=Jesus=Holy Spirit=God, not God +Jesus+Holy Spirit, that would be a mathematical night mare, you wouldn’t even have three Gods because remember God is pure and you can’t add to purity so the Adventist version of God is a mathematical nightmare and an illogical God, no wonder they come up with things like the IJ and gets worse from there. Now stick with me if you would and not get off into what God is, he is God and he is perfect and that is enough for this stroll into logic. So here we are and there God is and where we want to go is where God is. How do we get there? Impossible says man, I cannot make the grade. Well right you are Mr. man, you cannot. Our total dependency is on God, we cannot save ourselves to go where he is. So as I said, Enter Jesus, he paid the penalty for our sin and that is the only way it could logically happen and when we are born again into Christ=God=Holy Spirit=man we have the equation solved. The equation is finished, if you put a + sign in there anywhere you begin to get into logical and mathematical nightmare and tangle again. So there on the cross Jesus said “It is finished, I have brought man back into myself from which he came. So it is by and through his perfection we live, not ours. Now logic would ask the question, well then, is everyone going to be saved in the final analysis? No, there is a catch to all this, by faith in him are we saved, what faith? The faith of God, not mans faith, Gods faith, even that belongs to him. The Just shall live by faith. No faith, no salvation and no going from here to there for we are going in Christ Jesus if we are going. We in God and God in us is the way that trip will be made or my logic is faulty. Now you may say that if you use logic then we have to become perfect, no we don’t that is circular logic, he has become our perfection. That is our Sabbath of rest, our peace, in him we move and have our being, he is our fulfillment and in him we have peace and contentment. With man, this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Jesus warns us that if we do not confess him but are ashamed of him he will not confess us. Be warned sinner man, deny God and he says he will deny you. And not only that we are totally dependant on Jesus to get from here to there. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6236 Registered: 12-2003  |
It might help to understand that there are differing opinions about the law within Christianity. The Reformed tradition says that because morality is eternal, the moral principles of the law are restated in the NT. Thus, the 10 C's still reflect God's will for us as Christ-followers. In the strictest Reformed tradition, even the 4th commanment is said to be still applicable--just changed to Sunday because of Jesus' resurrection. Sunday sacredness is more prevalent in the Presbyterian tradition than in the Lutheran. The Dispensational tradition does say the whole law was nailed to the cross, but it tends to say that the moral princples were carried over and restated in the NT. Anything not restated, they say, does not apply today. First, we have to know that we will worship for the rest of our lives with people who have varying understandings of how law "works" in the NC. These differences should not and often do not divide within the body. The mechanics just are not the important "thing". Jesus is the only "thing" that matters. As I read the New Tetsatment, however, I see that Jesus literally fulfills ALL the law and ALL of our righteosness. The thing that is so hard to learn to accept is that God Himself lives in us and brings our dead spirits to life. God writes HIMSELF on our hearts. God is the Law written on our hearts. All Morality, Worship, Conviction, and Righteousness indwell us when we place our trust in Jesus. The Bible is God's revelation of His will for us; through the Bible the Holy Spirit teaches us the truts about God and the turths about ourselves and our dependence upon Him. But the Bible is not God—it is God's provision to instruct our minds and train our consciences. When we are in Christ, the Bible is God's revelation--but it is not our "law". Jesus Himself is our Law in the person of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Hebrews 10:28-29 confirms and expands on this reality: "Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" IOW, Death was the consequence for breaking the law. In the NC, however, the consequences are even more severe for those who refuse to accept and know the power of being made righteous by the blood of Jesus. The law, before Jesus, was the standard and rule for God's people. It also guaranteed curses for those who didn't obey. In the NC, however, Jesus Himself keeps the covenant requirements for us with Jesus. Because He has destroyed the curse and power of sin with His blood and resurrection, we can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit IS the law of love—the law of Christ—written on our hearts. God Himself is our Law and our Judge. He holds us to a far more rigourous standard of righteousness than the law did—but He also gives us His own Life and power so sin cannot claim us. To reject or trample on Holy Spirit Himself who is our Law in the NC is far more serious than was transgressing the written law in the OC. The New Covenant is new because at Pentecost something unprecedented happened: the eternal, almight, immortal, invisible God tookup residence in the still-mortal bodies of His people. The Living God walks around in us His people--and He IS our Law. We must listen to Him. Colleen | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 21 Registered: 1-2007 |
River and Colleen great posts! This is the only thing I can add: Ten commandments = pointing out sin=restriction and unhappiness(fear). Jesus Love = freedom and unrestriction as the law is written on our hearts. Jim 02, I was like you going around in circles to get some logic on this same subject and I just about drove myself crazy until I was able to set aside the SDA teaching and let the Holy Spirit show me what was important and what I need to know not what I want to know. I still have the tendency to jump into a subject with both feet instead of one step at a time. Gail | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3942 Registered: 3-2004  |
When I accepted Jesus Christ into my life, He sent the Holy Spirit to me, like he promised his disciples before He went back to heaven. Having the Holy Spirit in me does not mean that I am changed over night. If God did that I would not recognize myself. With the Holy Spirit working in me He changes a few things at a time and for every one that is different. To me to be free is to not be bothered by things I used to do and to be free to worship God as He shows me. I still sin, as I am human, but the Holy Spirit shows me where I am sinning and I can apologize immediately and ask God for help. For instance, I have an eating disorder. Sugar triggers that eating disorder and I want to eat everything in sight. So, when I am at the store and I see any sugar item and I want to buy it I tell God, "God, I cannot fight this. When I do fight this on my own I end up losing and end up buying and eating that which is not good for me. So, you fight this for me. I cannot beat this." When I do that the compulsion to buy what I do not need is taken from me. I have found that this works in all areas of my life. When I want to do some thing that is better if I do not do it. I tell God, you fight this, because if I do, I end up losing. The Holy Spirit changes our desires, wants, ambitions and makes them Gods. This is what I am learning about me. The Holy Spirit shows me what needs changing. I have to say, Yes, that is me. Now change me. For me it is one thing at a time and not a once only overall change. I hope this makes sense to you. Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1915 Registered: 10-2004  |
Wow, River, great post. Thanks for sharing those insights. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6249 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, your post was really insightful and helpful. Thank you. Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 658 Registered: 6-2006  |
Amen River! Jim, this stood out to me - You wrote "I also ask myself. Just what freedom do we have now that we did not have before?" I believe that you will now have freedom from fear. Freedom of the fear of "Babylon" and the mark of the beast. Freedom from the fear of the Sunday Law. Best of all freedom from the fear of not being perfect. Jesus takes that burden from you and gives you rest.  Leigh Anne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1014 Registered: 9-2006 |
In Matthew 8:2 a leper came to Jesus and worshiped him and said, Lord if you are willing you can make me clean and Jesus touched him saying “ I will, be cleansed. Multitudes were following Jesus that day but it was the leper that came to him. Jesus is able and willing to “clean” us, we are continuously assaulted by this world we live in. Sometimes assaulted by those of our own family with disagreements and there is so many ways that we cause injury to ourselves as well as others causing injury and we have the great privilege to go to the Lord in prayer, no longer through a priest because Jesus is our high priest and he “touches” our souls and gives us cleansing and peace. Thank God for that. There is the old song we used to sing and sometimes sing today. He touched me, Oh, he touched me, and Oh the joy that floods my soul’ Something happened and now I know, he touched me and he made me whole’ That’s all we really have to do is reach out to Jesus and he will touch our bruised soul, make us clean and whole. I don’t know about you guy’s but if that isn’t freedom I don’t know what freedom is. Freedom to go to him and he lifts the burden from our aching hearts. There is nothing complicated about going to Jesus in prayer, you don’t have to be a theologian, he has opened the way and he says “Come all ye that are heavy laden and I will give you rest unto your souls”. River | ||
| Luzisbornagain Registered user Username: Luzisbornagain Post Number: 41 Registered: 7-2007 |
Amen to that River. Colleen and River those were very insightful posts. Reading them I remember what my mom once told me,well actually many times. She told me salvation is like taking an exam. If you get a 98% or even a 99.9%, you're still lost because of that .1%. How impossible and burdensome that seemed to me as a child. I knew deep down that I couldn't be 100% on my own. And now that I know the gospel, thanks to a wonderful and merciful God for taking our place knowing that we all fall short and couldn't be perfect on our own. What a burden taken away from us. He truly is the Rest which the sabbath was pointing to. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1016 Registered: 9-2006 |
This morning an Adventist friend of mine stated that yesterday they had seventeen precious souls that were won for the Adventist church, nothing about Jesus, not a word. Said they were baptized into the Adventist church. Nothing about these souls being won for Christ, but for the Adventist church. I have been pondering this all morning, what does it all mean? What do I do with this information? Does it allow my spirit to be glad for souls who have come home? I sit here and wonder what went through the mind of all those people who received baptism. I had never really heard it so plainly spoken as to how they view salvation and it floored me just a little bit, I kept waiting to hear a word about Jesus, but not a word was spoken about our precious savior who paid such a great penalty for our sin. No glory was given to him in these words spoken, just, “won for the Adventist church.” The thought did go through my mind “trapped is more like it”, I get a vision of a gentle sweet little wild bunny rabbit as he hops around looking for a bit of food and he spies a bit of food in this box covered with wire and takes that one last hop into the box just to nibble the food and BANG!!! The door falls behind him. God help us if I am right. I pray that I am not; somehow all this grieves my spirit a bit. River | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 99 Registered: 5-2007  |
Well River, I finally figured how yu'all are doin' these clipart things, so here's my first:  Phil | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1920 Registered: 10-2004 |
River, not only that but the "food" isn't even food--it's poison that looked like food from a distance, but it just doesn't taste quite right but the rabbit eats it anyway since he's starving. Plus, there was another rabbit there that claimed it was food and the best kind at that--so it must just be that this "new and improved food" is supposed to taste that way! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 08, 2007) | ||
| Luzisbornagain Registered user Username: Luzisbornagain Post Number: 43 Registered: 7-2007 |
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| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3958 Registered: 3-2004 |
River, about those people baptized into the SDA church and the person telling you about it and not mentioning Jesus Christ, is very sad. I contrast it with the baptism we had at my church with my celebrate recovery program this past Friday evening. We had 13 people baptized into Jesus Christ that night. We whooped and hollered and praised God for their accepting Jesus Christ. What a difference from what I remember as an adventist. God is so awesome. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1019 Registered: 9-2006 |
Hey Phil, Glad you found out how to spice it up a bit, I have been meaning to explore that a bit to see what all can be accomplished with it ,but haven't had the time. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6256 Registered: 12-2003 |
River and Jeremy, I agree. Adventist baptism is a beguilement into bondage. We have a friend who was baptized as a teenager by a Baptist minister. His early life had been severely traumatic, and becoming a Christian really changed him and gave him hope, joy, and the ability to interact with others without shame or fear. A few years later he became an Adventist when he fell in love with an Adventist girl. He remained in the church for 15 years. About six years ago (or seven), he found his way out and back into Christ. I'll never forget the time he told us that Adventism took away his joy in the Lord. He lost his marriage when he left the church, but there were other issues involved as well, and when he left the church and returned to being a "plain Christian" and resumed worshiping on Sunday, the common thread in the relationship broke. My point is that you're right: baptism into Adventism is a deception, but the destination is despair and bondage, not joy and freedom in Jesus. Hey, I just went and figured out the clipart, too! (I'm embarrassed to admit I haven't done this before!  ) Colleen | ||
| Blessed Registered user Username: Blessed Post Number: 45 Registered: 1-2007 |
A number of years ago when we were vacationing with my parents in Palm Springs a friend of my mothers came to visit. It had been years since I had become a born-again Christian but these two ladies were staunch Adventists. My mother's friend was talking with my mother about many of the people that they knew back in the 60's. Each conversation had the words "they are still adventists" or "they are backslidden" or "they got rebaptized are Adventists again". Never once was the Lord mentioned. Sad but true. I recently played for a funeral of a lady who had grown up Adventist but had not attended church for a number of years. Her sister got up and shared her life story and it was stated that she had joined the Adventist church in such and such a year. No mention of the Lord at all. Again sad but true. This again reinforces that nothing has changed and can't until they get rid of Ellen and focus on the Word only. Blessed | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 132 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thank you all for your feedback. Yes River, I suppose it is a mechanical question. But I understand it is more than that. I note that most everyone answers in concepts rather than specifics except perhaps Flying Lady. In Jude: 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. 17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. I suppose my concern is partly the above and trying to grasp the scope of the rest of the subject of Grace. Tension is a good word. I think of a tarp stretched out by the borders. Each being an anchor point. Now they yell out, Jump, we will catch you ! But if any one anchor is slack or out of balance in tension, the safety of the tarp will be compromised. I believe the Bible is written in balances between the concepts and pragmatics. Between the Spiritual truths and the Human realities and between discipline and inperfections. |
