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Luzisbornagain
Registered user
Username: Luzisbornagain
Post Number: 24
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 5:37 pm: |     |
Amen Phil. She actually is and has been depressed for a very long time and maybe these are ways of escape or a cry out for help where she feels a false sense of freedom. |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 92
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 5:52 pm: | |
Marysroses,
You have expressed some thoughts that come from deep wisdom. I may have said things shorter but you said it right.
Also, we come from many different backgrounds so it is no wonder we might have some secondary differing views. Our goal here it to point to Jesus Christ and the true messege of salvation.
So, bless you Marysroses and bless you Luz,
Phil |
Luzisbornagain
Registered user
Username: Luzisbornagain
Post Number: 26
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 6:57 pm: | |
maryroses I didn't feel bad cause of what you said. What you said were true words. I just didn't wanna seem so harsh, which I think I didn't. Just speaking what I know is true. And tried to show where I stand with those views and letting gracehound know what the Word of God says. |
Gracehound
Registered user
Username: Gracehound
Post Number: 33
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 8:36 pm: | |
Maryroses, thank you for your post. My intent was never to inflame but merely to share my experience thus far on my journey. Your approach seems the same used by my brother and he is truly the only one in my family to which I relate regularly. It's been nice to have our relationship grow and blossom in unconditional love and acceptance. His path does not always come in line with what I would choose for him and I know that mine does not for him as well. But I am his sister, and he loves me, and he accepts me...unconditionally. In my own experience, judgement and self-righteous piety never really really gets you very far. We buried by grandmother last weekend and one of the lessons she taught me that I carry today is that you get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. She also taught me to pick and choose my battles wisely. This is not a battle I'll choose to argue but instead know my own heart and the heart of my God and choose to rest instead assured in the relationship that we share. At 105, she was a wise woman with years of wisdom and experience. She was truly the only place I felt unconditional love growing up.
Luzisbornagain, I'm not sure what to say beyond what I have already said. I make a point of not going out of my way to be inflamatory so I'll continue that with this post as well. Needless to say we are on different paths. You are welcome to judge my journey and my path...I have no control over how you choose to judge me. I shake my head at your post and have to remind myself that I also am not the one to judge you or your views, approach or opinions.
What I can tell you is that since I was freed from the SDA church, God has opened a huge, amazing and varied world to me. He has helped me find balance in my life. He has helped me to open my heart and I have learned that an open and accepting spirit has helped me cross paths with so many unique and interesting individuals...those same individuals I would have judged in a previous life. IF those people are on the wrong path, HE will reach them in whatever way he chooses to speak to them.
This conversation speaks to remind me of the whole argument that used to go on inside of the SDA church about 'beat music' and people who are allowed to come to the church but can not be baptised 'into' the church if they still smoke. That always caused me such cognative dissonace in me...God can save you from your sin but not in your sin? My God is bigger than that and it never made any sense to me. I later realized that it was an extremely legalistic approach to a God that is so much bigger than that.
You are welcome to judge me and throw texts at me. Remember, I was raised by an SDA bible teacher. If I chose to do so, I could go toe-to-toe, text-for-text on whatever topic you may want me to argue. Pick a side, any side...I can argue the state of the dead convincingly from either side. Shoot, I'll take the opposing side just for fun even if it wasn't what I happen to believe. The bible can be used in ways that both build up and tear down.
In the last 3.5 years, giving up the idea that it's my job to instruct others on where the sin is in their lives under the guise of 'witnessing' is not my job. IF God plans to reach someone he will do so in his own time and in his own way. I'm not saying that I have never been used by God to help someone on their journey. I'm sure you have as well. But the thought that it is my responsibility to point out every speck in the eye of another when we all have planks in our own has actually freed me from the burden of the constant 'witness'. I no longer seek out opportunities to witness but powerful opportunities are placed in front of me from time to time when I know that even though I tend to be somewhat shy and don't want to speak that it is better for me to do so. I speak of my experience and what the Lord has shown me if I feel I'm being prompted to do so. But never because it makes me feel better to bear the burden of being the witness and never because my sin is any less than theirs. We are all spiritual beings on a spiritual journey. We are all God's children, no better and no worse than any other.
In my own opinion, there isn't a scorecard in heaven of souls lost and souls won. I 'just know' when someone has crossed my path and was placed there for a reason. I had that experience this weekend and I know without a shadow of a doubt that someone bigger than me placed her at my side at the table at my Grandmom's funeral. There is so much more out there for me now. I'm not saying that your approach is wrong, it is just wrong for me. My screen name is gracehound for a reason. I appreciate the conviction with which you speak and can even appreciate the reasons for which you feel the need to speak. I have to agree, however, that if you intend to use the bible to point out the flaws of another, do so prayerfully and only when you feel that someone higher than you is prompting you to do so and not because you feel tasked to witness. In all sincerity, good luck with your visit with your sister. I hope and pray it goes well.
(Message edited by gracehound on July 05, 2007) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6217
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 10:18 pm: | |
It's so amazing to me that just this very evening Richard and I were having a conversation with a friend about this very subject, but from a slightly different point of view.
Our friend knows a married couple in which the husband used to be a homosexual. He recently attended a conference in Orange County of Exodus International, a Christian ministry for gays and lesbians. This man told our friend that it was an overwhelming experience to walk into that convention center and hearing that roomful of people singing praising God for being set free. Here's what he said that impacted me so much:
He said that if a homosexual desires to be no longer homosexual, he will never get over it by praying to have his/her homosexuality removed or to be "healed". He said the only way this particular thing can be dealt with is if the person specifically seeks Jesus Christ alone. When a person goes before the Lord Jesus and says, "I want to know you, to serve you, to be identified with you, and I'm going to give you my homosexual identity and not fight either for it or against it; I give it up to you and leave it in Your hands. I want to know only You, and I give up my right either to be straight or gay but to be identified only with You"--when a person seeks Jesus alone and gives up either justifying or fighting his/her homosexuality, only then can a person ever be delivered. And when deliverance happens, it is truly a deliverance because—and this is the profound part—homsexuality, unlike alcoholism or eating disorders, etc. is not a sin of self-control. It is an issue of identity.
This person said that when a person desires to be identified with Jesus alone and is willing to give up his/her identity that he knows to be his/hers, then Jesus can become their new identity.
I realized that this understanding of homsexuality being identity primarily instead of primarily rebellion or indulgence describes what I experienced with Adventism. I believe that only when we surrender our rights to ourselves do we fully experience the freedom and intimacy that Jesus has promised His own. Only when we are willing to give up clinging to or fighting with our most basic identity and aks Jesus to glorify Himself in and through us and make us His, only then are we free.
Gracehound, it is so good to see you here again. Thanks for coming back!
Colleen |
Luzisbornagain
Registered user
Username: Luzisbornagain
Post Number: 27
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 7:35 am: | |
Thanks colleentinker for that post. That's exactly what's going on. I knew in my heart that what I was doing was wrong, especially when God's Word said it. I was ready to give it up. Gracehound I didn't say those things to sound jugdemental or anything and in any way was I arguing with you, but just stating why it's wrong and to tell you that God can truly deliver anyone out of that self destructive lifestyle. I don't think you're horrible. In fact I can relate to how you feel because I've felt that too. Where liking girls felt natural to me and anyone that got in the way or felt were judging I didn't want a part of. In no way am I trying to be self rightous. I was just telling you the good news that He can set you free from that, but only if you want to. If you saw that I was in error over something that can affect me, wouldn't you tell me out of love? I guess you're not getting that point from me. Love is not just accepting everything people do, but also telling them the truth even if they don't want to hear it. My sister knows it's wrong and with prayer God will use me if He wants me to reach her, if it's not me then He'll send someone else who's fit to do the job. I hope that in your journey you'll see Christ more and more in your life. God bless.
(Message edited by luzisbornagain on July 06, 2007) |
Asurprise
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Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 13
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 7:35 am: | |
When I was an Adventist, I knew next to nothing about the Holy Spirit. Now I'm beginning to learn and one of my favorite texts is Galatians 5:16 "...Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." That's FREEDOM from the flesh! We are all born sinners with varying traits toward sin but God gives us FREEDOM!!! Yes!!!!!
Dianne |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1000
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 9:26 am: | |
This thing of portending to openly practice homosexuality and claims that God supports them in it is a despicable thing, this practice goes against nature it’s self.
My brother in law came to Christ and did not give it up, he “bothered” my children if you know what I mean and some of the children in my church of which I had been entrusted by their parents to care for and when I called the law down on him and we went to court the judge ask me what I desired to do with him, I ask for another chance for him, the judge said to him “you are fortunate to have a forgiving family, instead of the twenty years I want to give you, I will give you probation for their sakes and not yours”.
So he received five years probation, so his mother and father whisked him of to another state to protect him, he later “bothered” other children and ended up with five years in state prison.
I have never given him up to Satan to destroy and I never will, he was my first convert when God reached down for me, I will refuse to give him up.
I pray for him often and sincerely hold him before the Lord.
This thing has spanned a period of twenty five years, for awhile he went to a homosexual run “church” to try to justify his condition but in the end he needed deliverance from this despicable practice.
Now you may say “Oh, I would never “bother” children but by your very act of “coming out” you teach them wrong and you send a wrong message.
Now you can yell live and let live all you want, but this despicable practice is becoming more and more a stain on this land we call home, it spreads like a cancer even now.
You that are not involved might say that they cannot infect your children or your loved ones, but they do and will have affect on you own children and grand children, these homosexuals are not satisfied to do their despicable acts against very nature in private but want the world to accept them and the church to accept them, they are clamoring for their rights among society.
From what I can gather from the story of Sodom and Lot with his living there indicates what might happen with a society that ends up with this condition for he offered them his daughters and it was not enough.
It is the very same today, it is not enough that people are willing to let them alone to practice their despicable acts in whatever hole they choose to crawl into, they want to marry and be free to practice it openly and freely and teach your children and grand children that it’s Okey Dokey to have two mothers or two fathers and to teach other children so. Just as it was with Lot, they want more and more. They parade up and down the streets in roving bands more and more.
Last year we won the fight against changing the Law in this state to suit them, but friend I tell you now, decent people will grow tired of the fight and just quit voting because every year it will be on the ballot and when decent people grow weary it will get worse. Pretty soon it will be against the Law for a minister of the gospel to say what Luz said here on this forum. You heard it here first, well maybe not.
Luz, I doubt if this person will accept correction but at least you tried.
I will tell you this, the day we start saying what the Bible calls wrong, right, we take a step back.
Some of the churches have already compromised and allowed the open practitioners of despicable sin to be Pastors and deacons and places of leadership and they say we must allow them and take them in.
And the homosexual practicing deacon or Pastor says “We are harmless” “WE would never think of “bothering” your children and so you send them to be taught by them the word of God who deny the word of God. Insanity on the highest order.
I would like for someone on here to tell me what is the difference between “false teachings” and “false teaching” whether it be Aventism or mother hubbard’s cupboard.
Now open practicing homosexual person of despicable acts I am not going to sit here and condemn you of sin when I myself have not reached any semblance of perfection nor have ever been able to reach any semblance of perfection, neither will I compromise the Bible which I consider to be Gods word and message for us in these last days when the land grows darker and darker. I will not compromise it for Adventism nor will I compromise it for you nor teach men to compromise it. I don’t compromise it for my own acts nor allow my own self slack, I try to take its admonitions and warnings as well as it’s message of love and forgiveness.
Just by the by, use of tobacco is not nearly akin to homosexual practice.
Tobacco use is not mentioned once in the Bible as far as I know, it may not be healthy as eating carrots, the Bible does admonish us not to be enslaved by anything and tobacco does enslave us to the nicotine, there are also many forms of other enslavement that Christians are subject to and I doubt many are completely free of enslavement of some sort, it’s just tobacco is visible and so the church people tend to jump on what is visible while the same people that do jump on it may be enslaved to a critical spirit or some other form of enslavement.
One gal said she was enslaved to buying shoes. She had twenty pairs of shoes in her closet. I suppose that would be a closet sin and if her shoes ever come out she’s in trouble! I know if my shoes ever start marching out of the closet I am going to know something ain’t right in the neighborhood.
I am telling you I have watched this thing from a Bible perspective for going on 36 years as the days have grown darker and darker and more violent and don’t tell me I don’t know what violence is neither.
Put a frog in water and slowly bring up the heat and you end up with a boiled frog and it has been this way with our society.
Churches are closing due to lack of interest and its not due to hypocritical Christians it is due to the slow encroachment of sin and a loss of first love for Christ that’s what it is due too, too my thinking at least.
How many tired and disappointed Pastors who have spent a life time of leading a flock will finally have to walk tiredly up to the steps of his church and with tears in his eyes, turn the key for the last time and walk slowly away before we will wake up and begin to stand for something?
Friends if we can’t even keep faithful enough to attend church and at least try to adhere to Gods word then what I want to know is how we are going to stand against the works of darkness?
Satan is getting braver as the days grow darker and that’s why these homosexuals are getting braver, either that or I am just an idiot and have no ability to discern anything.
Now I know I have made many friends on here today! I know at the rate I make friends I probably will be overrun with them!
River |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6230
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 11:29 am: | |
I am so encouraged and humbled by this statement of Paul's:
I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because he considered me faithful, putting me into service, even though I was formerly a blasphemer and and persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief…It is a trustworthy statement deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners among whom I am foremost of all. Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life" (1 Timothy 1:12-13, 15-16).
Every one of us has deep, identity-distorting sin from which the Lord Jesus must save us. He is completely faithful. He IS our all-in-all. He defines us by His own perfection , and as we submit to Him, He changes us. Amazing.
River, your post above is right. Romans 1 confirms what you said.
The blood of Jesus and His resurrection are our hope. We do not have to be resigned to live in what Romans 1 defines as God's wrath being poured out on those who suppress the knowledge of Him. Nothing about us shocks Him or sends Him running.
He is our hope and our salvation.
Colleen |
Snowboardingmom
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Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 302
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 12:08 pm: | |
I love your post, Colleen! As I was reading through this thread just now, Paul came to my mind, too!
I realize this is an EXTREMELY sensitive topic, and because of that, I am really hesitant to post my thoughts on it.
First, sin is sin. Humans are humans. Every single one of us is born depraved. And as Colleen stated so well, "Every one of us has deep, identity-distorting sin from which the Lord Jesus must save us." Homosexuality is one of those easy sins to "pick on", because often, it's one that is expressed more outwardly than others. Although I am not homosexual, I have my own severe identity issues that I have to be healed from, and on a daily basis, I battle the behavior manifestations that result from it. And although I secretly rationalize and live with these compulsive behaviors, when I'm honest with myself, I find that it brings me a great deal of shame.
But the good news is, we don't have to battle them alone! God can take our shame, our identity, and transform us into the healthy individuals that He intends for us to be. As I've been dealing with my own issues, I have come to pray, "Lord, undo in me what I've become by filling me with You."
Even though I am not homosexual, I have found the testimonies on the Exodus International website (a ministry for gays and lesbians) to be profound and powerful. All of us struggle because we are human with some form of fleshy desires. But as Christ followers, we have the power of Jesus to help us overcome them.
Here is a testimony exerpt from the Exodus International website that I think we, as former Adventists, can relate to:
"I think this is what healing looks like. I believe it is having integrity when I have no idea what the outcome will be. I believe it is the ability to yield up my body so as not to serve or worship any god except my own God. I believe it is maturity born out of a burning desire to live for Someone greater than myself. And, I believe it is the ability to humble myself before that One and rely on Him so heavily that others can not tell where I end and He begins."
Grace |
Snowboardingmom
Registered user
Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 303
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 12:43 pm: | |
I want to mention too, that God heals all of us on His timetable. We're all on a journey, with it's unique struggles. And as long as our ultimate goal isn't to "overcome ____", but to be identified with Jesus alone, we will all eventually end up at the same destination. We don't have to "hurry" each other along this road. As Christ-followers, we can be assured that when we submit our lives to Him, we will be transformed into His image (2 Cor 3:17, 18).
Grace |
Luzisbornagain
Registered user
Username: Luzisbornagain
Post Number: 30
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 12:52 pm: | |
Exactly river. we can't compromise the word of God to justify our sins, then basically you're calling God a liar. If God says it's wrong then it's wrong. |
Freeatlast
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Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 530
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 5:49 pm: | |
The following is NOT a position statement. It is intended as a "things that make you go 'hmm...." statement, so please take it in that context.
Sex is always a sensitive subject and elicits powerful and polarizing feelings within Christian circles. The orthodox Christian sexual paradigm is one-man-one-woman-married-for-life. I fully appreciate the recent impact of homosexual claims on Christian marriage. However, please consider whether heterosexual sin in the church is any less damnable (i.e., pornography, the solicitation of prostitutes, divorce, and just plain dirty-old-man ogling among - GASP - Christians!) We Christian heteros accuse and condemn ourselves along with Christian homos when we point at lust. Paul said to not let sexual immorality even be NAMED among us! Uh oh... We should be ashamed of ourselves on this front!
Besides, I am working very hard on recovering from my former ignorant legalist status so I cannot help but wonder how homosexual behavior has any relevance to a believer's salvation. How is salvation by sexual orientation different from savation by Sabbathkeeping?
Furthermore, I fail to see a connection between child molestation and homosexuality among the brethren (and sistren). If there is any evidence for that, I would like to see it.
If the power of Christ avails us to overcome the lust of the flesh here and now, then why are none of us lust-free? This is the same argument that SDA's use for perfectionism.
Scripture admonishes us to fully recognize our own exceeding sinfulness whenever we confront another believer about anything.
If we are going to openly challenge homosexuals as not being in Christ, we are by definition also removing from Christ those who practice the other "abominations" such as haughty looks, lying tongues, feet that run rapidly to evil, and hearts that devise evil. Do these Scriptural "abominations" not define each and every one of us?
I say NO! Because each and every one of is identified in CHRIST. Certainly not in our Sabbathkeeping. Certainly not in our sexual orientation. We are all living in desperately depraved, lust-filled flesh longing to hear the words of our Savior, "where are your accusers? neither do I condemn thee". |
Luzisbornagain
Registered user
Username: Luzisbornagain
Post Number: 33
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 6:41 pm: | |
sabbath keeping was a ceremonial law. Moral laws are treated different than that. Paul admonishes the early christians to stay away from sexual immorality and that includes all kinds of sexual immorality such as adultery, beastiality, homosexuality, incest, etc. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1006
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 7:58 pm: | |
Quote:We are all living in desperately depraved, lust-filled flesh longing to hear the words of our Savior, "where are your accusers? neither do I condemn thee".
Well are you also longing to hear him say "go and sin no more"? Apparently thats what he would say to us, he said it to them at least.
River |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6237
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 07, 2007 - 11:15 am: | |
I see the issue of homosexuality very much the same as Adventism. I understand that the homesexual/gay political "agenda" is attempting to normalize what the Bible plainly calls sin. Just like Adventism tries to normalize and recruit followers into a false gospel, a false prophet, a diminished Jesus, and no security, so the homosexual political "movement" seeks to normalize and expand itself.
Individuals, however, are not condemnable. God is calling Adventists and homosexuals to Himself. While we are dead in sin, God makes us alive with Christ. Once we are alive in Christ, however, God works in us and calls us out of our deep brokenness and sin.
The Lord Jesus asks us to humble ourselves before Him and to submit to Him. He really does ask us to let go of all we value and treasure and love. He asks us to hold it loosely and surrender it to Him, allowing Him to be our only identity.
I cannot conclude whether individual Adventists or homosexuals are lost or saved. I have to be a witness for the Lord Jesus to them, and I have to call them into discipleship which includes surrendering to Him everything. Losing my deepest identity for the sake of Jesus was the hardest thing I've ever done. but Jesus is faithful.
Every one of us is completely and irreparably broken. Our identities are twisted, and we often don't even know it. The Lord Jesus asks us to trust Him enough to surrender our most defining identity to Him, allowing Him to replace all we were and all we love.
Jesus heals all the deep wounds that shape us. He makes us new—and he gives us far more than He asks us to give up.
Colleen |
Luzisbornagain
Registered user
Username: Luzisbornagain
Post Number: 37
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, July 07, 2007 - 3:18 pm: | |
Amen colleen |
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