| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 310 Registered: 11-2005 |
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/6198/7881.html While I don't agree with everything being presented here, it does go into great detail about the many problems with the Ellen White charades by the SDA denomination. A Few Examples: "The worst presentation is the one on Ellen White and her critics. He tried to point out the logical fallacies of the critics but really mainly points out his own fallacies. A big one he uses is the A priori fallacy he says that the critics use because they begin with the assumption that she is not a prophet. Yet for some reason his own fallacy and that of all the presentors that EGW is a prophet are not considered to be A priori fallacies." "Mrs. White's visions ceased about the time of the change of life common to women. While she still had visions, she claimed that much that she "saw" went entirely from her mind at the time. Months, even years later, when she met a brother or a church that needed a "testimony," the part relating to these all came vividly to her mind, she said. She would then write out this portion of the forgotten "vision." This worked very well till years after her visions ceased. Finally this could not be stretched further. Then her revelations had to come in a different way; by a voice, by dreams, by "impressions," by some one on "authority" speaking, and the like. The following expressions, taken from the last volume of her "Testimonies for the Church," Vol. IX., published in 1909, are examples of this. Page 13: "I was instructed." Page 82: "Instruction has been given me." Page 65: "In the night of March 2, 1907, many things were revealed to me." The room, she said, was very light. Page 66: "Then a voice spoke to me." Page 95: "The angel stood by my side." But she had no vision as formerly. Page 98: "Instruction has been given me." Page 101: "In the night season I was awakened from a deep sleep and given a view." Page 137: "In the night season matters have been presented to me." Page 195: "At one time I seemed to be in a council meeting." The expression, "I have been instructed," occurs over and over in these later alleged revelations, just as the expression, "I saw," does in her earlier writings" "Ron thanks for starting this excellent thread. So far I have only had time to listen to Jud Lake's presentation about "Ellen White & Her Critics." Here is my response; I was very disappointed in this weak, ineffective, and less then honorable presentation that seemed more like self-serving cheerleading for the White Estate's views than an honest attempt to rebut the critics and set the record straight. In fact, I found his presentation hypercritical, lacking the necessary spirit of humility and candidness that the White Estate needs to exhibit if they expect to have any success with their attempt to rehabilitate Ellen White, much less her theology about the Three Angels Messages. It was very sad to see that at no time did the White Estate take any blame for anything that has gone wrong with Ellen White's writings or the Adventist Movement. The apologist didn't mention Arthur White, the 1888 fiasco, or even Glacier View, much less the fact that the White Estate was caught hiding thousands of documents about 1888 for generations. And unless these issues are honestly addressed and openly dealt with, there is no chance to turn things around and convince the growing number of critics that the White Estate is credible. So this presentation, like most everything that the hierarchy undertakes, failed miserably to deal with the issues, and thus it was ineffective and worthless. The critics should actually be encouraged because not only are their ranks growing tremendously, as the lecturer admitted, but the White Estate is pursuing non-effective and counter-productive tactics that only strengthens their cause and gives them more reasons to carry on their fight for truth and justice against the SDA church. Another major flaw with this presentation is that all the problems were always the fault of the critics, never anything that Arthur White, AG Daniels, Froom, or even Ellen White did. To believe their story, the church has made no mistakes whatsoever. Thus they blamed everyone else for their present troubles but themselves." This thread is loaded with the type of examples we have been trying to point out. Unlike the writers though, I don't feel the Seventh-day Adventist denomination in its pride can be salvaged. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 311 Registered: 11-2005 |
And another: http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/8/10832.html?1168054500 "The Tinker's are not to blame for the dishonest and incompetent leadership that has savaged the Adventist Movement. They did not cover up any documents in the White Estate and misled numerous generations to believe false information about Ellen White and church history. The Tinker's and millions of others have been taken advantage of by the dishonest SDA leaders and this is why so many are upset. People don't like being deceived. And this massive fraud will not go unpunished. Those that have done this need to be brought to justice and the record set straight for the good of the Adventist Movement." | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 970 Registered: 9-2006  |
Gilbert, I say this with love and respect now. Do you think it is wise to pull controversial websites onto this website at all? River | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 312 Registered: 11-2005 |
Hi River, I definitely value, respect and appreciate your opinion and suggestions. I was not even aware of this website until I stumbled across it yesterday while searching for references to F.E. Belden. Having grown up on Belden's songs, I was amazed to learn that he, too, had left Adventism. As I was looking for all the related information that would confirm the circumstances relating to his departure, I did a Google search. This site was one of the ones that came up in the search. While I didn't agree with all of Bob Sand's and Tom Norris's conclusions, my immediate reaction was that Former Adventist Forums can certainly not be singled out for finding fault with the abundance of false doctrine. Bob and Tom articulate the problems with all the false propaganda generated by the White Estate in more detail than I have seen it anywhere else. Speaking for myself, I don't think the general readership of Former Adventist Forums is neutral toward the Seventh-day Adventist doctrinal edifice and coverup -- nor should it be. The name of this forum implies that most readers have come from an Adventist background and are trying to sort through all the SDA baggage to figure out what, if any, is supportable from the bible. For me, things reached a peak when Clfford Goldstein used what even a child would consider to be ludicrous logic in the 3rd Quarter 2006 Adult Sabbath School Lesson Quarterly. Bob and Tom confront that head-on in a straight-forward style very similar to Dale Ratzlaff's review of SDA doctrines in his book, Cultic Doctrine. The message I get from reading Tom's posts is an impassioned plea for the Seventh-day Adventist leadership to wake up and realize that the day of continued lying to the public about Ellen White's saintly image, and giving her a wax nose (as Geoffry Paxton put it) are over. While I don't agree with all of Tom's conclusions or theology, I agree completely with the statement, "The Tinker's and millions of others have been taken advantage of by the dishonest SDA leaders and this is why so many are upset. People don't like being deceived. And this massive fraud will not go unpunished." Furthermore, his assessment of Jud Lake's seminar on the Ellen White Critics is very well written -- and I feel would agree with Dale Ratzlaff's views. Dale, of course can't say it with quite the same directness, because Dale was the one Jud Lake was attacking. At least in my opinion, these posts of Bob's and Tom's articulate the problems we as former Adventists have faced. That is also the purpose of our Former Adventist Forums, isn't it. I don't view Bob and Tom as attacking Adventism per se, but rather trying with a feeling of desparation to rouse the SDA leadership (and by extension the White Estate) out of the stupor, and continued state of self denial. The points they bring up are the same ones we bring up. We have just "moved on", or for many of us are considering "moving on". It there is anything that you read into this, that I am missing I greatly appreciate it being brought to my attention, and I will try to be wiser next time. Perhaps there are some dynamics that I was not aware of. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3903 Registered: 3-2004  |
Gilbert, I am so glad the Tinkers are mentioned in that article as having been taken advantage of by the dishonest Adventist leaders. It is nice to know that the deception was seen from day one of this adventist movement. It is recognized now. The problem is, what is the SDA church going to do about it, besides spin more stories. Diana | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 231 Registered: 5-2007 |
Gilbert, who is Tom Norris? WHen reading what he wrote I almost get the impression he wants to leave Adventism but is afraid to for some reason. I think he makes some valid points, but of course I don't agree with his hanging on to EGW. The truth is Adventism is terminally ill and should be allowed to die a "good" death. Then all the people who are still trapped in it would be free to find Bible-believeing Gospel-preaching churches. Adventism is rotten to the core and irreformable IMHO. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1133 Registered: 4-2000  |
Reb, I have known Tom Norris for many years through two different websites (beginning with the AT forum). He is a devout Fordite, and he thinks he can reform Adventism. His overstatements (hyperbole) often defeat his passionate rhetoric. I have communicated with him on a few occasions by email through the years. Having said that, however, I wholeheartedly agree with Tom Norris on the topic of tithing. I was united with him on that topic on the Adventist Today forum before they shut it down. Tom insists the real reason for the shutdown was the very lengthy, excellent tithing threads on the AT forum. I think he is right about that as well. Adventist Today also closed their chat room on Yahoo many years ago. They could not control the discussion any longer. This reminds me of the official SDA forum that was shut down just a few weeks before the Toronto GC Session. Even though the official GC forum had a strict, paid moderator, he could not keep Adventists from attacking each other and their church. They referred to him as the "Gestapo." We even had a non-SDA author join us who had written a book on tithing. It was all top-notch scholarship. Adventist Today did not salvage any of those tithing threads. In short, they unashamedly destroyed them. Fortunately, I still have many of them in my steel files. Dennis Fischer (Message edited by dennis on July 01, 2007) (Message edited by Dennis on July 01, 2007) | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 314 Registered: 11-2005 |
Dennis -- "lengthy" is right word. He has his eye on every single cockroach streaming out of the White Estate. <grin> Tom also maintains http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists-2318/indexExp_70484.htm If Jud Lake, the White Estate, etc, think they have anything to fear from these Former Adventist Forums, they must go dizzy trying to figure out where to even start with Tom's detailed analyses, as well as Ron Corson's contributions. They remind me of the kind of detail in Desmond Ford's 1844 book. That doesn't mean I agree with all of his conclusions. I just have to admire his spunk, and candidness. It reminds me of reading Dale Ratzlaff's Cultic Doctrine. That is one of the best books I have read on Adventist cultism, and the reason why is because Dale tells it like it is. We can all relate to that. Gilbert Jorgensen (Message edited by jorgfe on July 01, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6174 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dennis is right. The ATomorrow "group" (the extension of the old Adventist Today forum Dennis mentioned) has many criticisms of Adventism but has no intention of leaving Adventism. They have been having those discussions for many years. In fact, they are extensions of the types of concerns/discussions of my colleagues when I was managing editor of Adventist Today in the mid to late 90's. Yes, I (like most of us here) resonate with many of their criticisms. But I have come to a place where I believe it's a waste of time to sit and discuss these concerns without personally taking a stand for integrity. I believe that the focus on the problems with Adventism will likely have an effect on the church, but that change is likely another re-packaging of Adventism so it looks "cleaner". If the church were really to repent, it would break apart, and frankly, they'd lose an awfully lot of money. Adventism is big business behind the scenes. Adventism cannot merely "repent" for hiding the facts about Ellen and then go on with a clean slate. They actually have a non-Christian theology that keeps people from knowing Jesus and being secure in Him. How can an organization founded in the heresy of Arianism "repent" and continue on as a Christian church? To truly repent they would have to renounce Ellen, not just apologize for covering up her egregious sins. They would have to renounce the Arian foundation of the church (which is still promulgated in the way they teach the members about Jesus and the Trinity and salvation and the nature of Christ and, by implication, of man and of sin). If they repented for the church's own foundation, they would cease to be Seventh-day Adventists. As Angel Rodgriguez of the GC says, without the Investigative Judgment, the church would have no reason to exist. That's the problem. A whitewashed heresy cannot repent without losing itself. It can't just apologize and continue on as the same organization...just as the Mormon church couldn't publicly "repent" of hiding the truth about Joseph Smith's personal life and think they could go on existing as a now-Christian church. Colleen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 317 Registered: 11-2005 |
Colleen -- Well stated! I especially like your statement, "I have come to a place where I believe it's a waste of time to sit and discuss these concerns without personally taking a stand for integrity." Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 235 Registered: 5-2007 |
After reading what Tom Norris and Ron Corson have written, I have a lot of respect for both of them. I pray that they see that Adventism is irreformable and come out of it to a Bible beliving Gospel-preaching church. If they keep on going the way they are, the decision will probably be made for them. I see a "Ford" in their future, namely both of them getting "Forded" at some point by the GC. | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 148 Registered: 10-2006 |
I see a "Chevy" in their future, as in they should jump into the nearest Chevy and get as far away from the GC as they can. You too Reb, and take your wife with you. No disrespect or lack of empathy, just kidding a little. I realize your position. steve | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 239 Registered: 5-2007 |
No problem, Steve. That was cool! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 971 Registered: 9-2006 |
Gilbert, I probably spoke out of turn, what I saw was the potential to begin turning this website into a round and round about what is salvageable in Adventism. I truthfully don't believe it is salvageable myself and still maintain an Adventist identity and I have often spoke out against holding on to the flotsam and jetsam of Adventism. I apologize for speaking out of turn. I suppose you might term me "goosey" as Reb said. Please accept my apology Gilbert. I spoke out of turn and out of place. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6190 Registered: 12-2003 |
Well, River, I'm not Gilbert--I'll let him reply to you himself. But I can say that your concern about holding onto the flotsam and jetsam is well taken. I have a sense of heaviness when I read the arguments and observations of "progressive Adventists" because they never move away from dead center. They have grave disagreements with church politics, policies, practices, and prophecy, but they absolutely dodge the bottom line: what are you going to do about it? I worked in the milieu (did I spell that right?) for several years. It's really a self-serving sort of circular reasoning that goes sort-of like this: these are the problems; here's how the church should fix them; I don't have to vote with my feet because I'm comfortable, it's my culture, I "know the gospel", and I can "make a difference"--and I might lose my income and my social position. Truth really doesn't figure into the picture. Progressive Adventism is a quintessential "emergent church". River, I absolutely agree with you. One cannot hold onto the "flotsam and jetsam" of Adventism without being "owned" by the underlying deception. Yes--(please don't mis-hear me)--no doubt many Adventists are saved. But they're saved in spite of Adventism, and God calls them to follow Him fully out. There is an integrity issue here. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 972 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well Colleen, I got home this afternoon from two days at the beach. I feel better and not so touchy and jumpy, sure was nice to get away, sometimes we need to get away, step back and rest, it puts us back in balance and gives a fresh out look. River | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 149 Registered: 10-2006 |
Colleen, You said "these are the problems; here's how the church should fix them; I don't have to vote with my feet because I'm comfortable, it's my culture, I "know the gospel", and I can "make a difference"--and I might lose my income and my social position." I know many Adventists, including pastors who fit this description. The saddest part of this is realizing that they are willing to allow themselves to be associated with a false gospel in order to sustain a level of comfort. As Adventists love to say, the truth is the truth. I guess that's just another Adventist bumper sticker from those who say that salvation is the Sabbath observance, not Jesus, our True Sabbath Rest. Wake up Laodicea, Adventism is a deception, another gospel, a wolf in sheep's clothing. steve | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 322 Registered: 11-2005 |
River, no problem. I can certainly see where you are coming from. There are many who are still undecided, and I suppose it is like giving a little air to a drowning rat. It gives them hope that Adventism is salvagable. Just viewing pathetic performances like Jud Lake's sad attempt at mounting an attack on Ellen White critics at the EG White Symposium convinces me that even if we, as former Adventists, did nothing their nonsense and circular reasoning would sink their own cause. Likewise Clifford Goldstein's amazing acrobatics in trying to prop up 1844 and the mythical Investigative Judgment in the 3rd quarter 2006 Sabbath School Lesson Study. Clifford's logic is some of the most amazing I have ever seen. 80% of our Sabbath School class was in a state of disbelief that church leaders actually thought we were that gullible! We came to the conclusion that using sound principles of biblical interpretation is something that seemed to escape him. There are so many drunk bats flying around in the "Adventist belfry" that it is sometimes hard for us as former Adventists to know where to even start in carrying out a coherant conversation with people whose every fifth word is "Sabbath", "Mark of the Beast" or "Ellen White". Tom's posts provide a motherload of cogent points, that I felt made our job of articulating what is wrong with Adventism a lot easier. I think it is only a matter of time until Tom realizes that Adventism is a lost cause. He has already correctly identified that the White Estate's continued outright lies and coverups is doing more to damage Adventism's cause than any outside critic. As so many people are starting to realize, Adventism is a sinking ship -- and it is due to their own refusal to be candid and open with the laity. They refuse to rely solely on the Bible, and continue to try to resuscitate the ghost of Ellen White. Another couple of generations, and it will all be over. White lies and half-truths can't fool the laity forever. Today it has been 162 Years, 8 Months, and 12 Days since October 22, 1844. Their scam is up, and they know it. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6193 Registered: 12-2003 |
Exactly rigth, Steve. Dale Ratzlaff often challenges Adventist pastors, when he speaks privately to them, to act with integrity. He uses 1 Timothy 1:18-19 where Paul challenges his protege to "fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some men have rejected and suffered shipwreck with regard to their faith." Rationalizing endorsing a false gospel by staying in the system sacrifices a good conscience. This very point of tension is the point that all Adventists have to face if they seriously consider the evidence. Will I stay and rationalize "working from within", or will I keep a good conscience and trust God to glorify Himself through my leaving? Now, I can't know the true nature of all people's decisions--I'm not suggesting that those who stay are necessarily lost. I'm only saying that God calls each of us to keep faith and a good conscience at the risk of making shipwreck of our faith. Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2007 |
Gilbert; you mentioned Clifford Goldstein's acrobatics in trying to prop up 1844. That reminded me of writing to him awhile ago about the Sabbath. I carefully explained how the Sabbath was the sign of the old covenant. He never wrote back. Dianne | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 333 Registered: 11-2005 |
Clifford Goldstein refused to reply back to Eduardo Martínez-Rancaño's excellent set of questions regarding Clifford's 1844 lessons as well. It is a habit he seems to have. Or perhaps it is because he has no answers. Or perhaps not enough of us are asking him, and Adventist leaders, the same questions ... See http://truthorfables.com/Goldstein.htm Gilbert Jorgensen |
