| Author |
Message |
Bobj
Registered user
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 217
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 7:35 pm: |     |
Phil,
And to add to what you are saying, Galatians chapter 1 nails down Paul's authority--sent by God, not by man, message from God, not from man, etc.
Paul's claims are very strong, and when you read his books, his claims are usually stated in the first few verses of each book. His claims are unique--no other NT author makes similar claims.
Bob |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6175
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 10:48 pm: | |
Reb, I agree with the posts above. Gilbert's and River's advice to consider declaring your intentions and to minimize confusion for your wife by choosing to attend JUST the SDB church is a very cogent point.
Jeremy and Phil, excellent posts re: Paul. If any of you read Rick Langer's article in the last Proclamation, you'll see on the "sidebar" at the end of his article a diagram with a tree and three "bushes" of heresy which have grown up around the Christian tree for centuries. One of those bushes is "Ebionism" which adopts OT law, returns to a pre-flood diet, rejects Paul's writings, and is especially fond of Matthew.
While Adventism isn't traditional Ebionism (which is actually a sect of Judaism), the earmarks of this heresy are clearly within Adventism. One cannot accept Paul as equally authoritative with the OT if one is committed to OT food laws and the Sabbath. As Galatians points out, when people put themselves back under the law, they also put themselves back under its curse. One can't say the law is valid for them but not the curses of the law because the two are inseparable.
Adventists must diminish Paul (some even question his inspiration) because he clearly teaches that we now live under grace in a completely new position IN CHRIST. Those OT laws are obsolete. Adventism's resistance to Paul is a MAJOR red flag that something is wrong with its theology. One really cannot compromise with this kind of rejection of God's word.
Colleen |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 234
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 8:18 am: | |
And when they throw out Paul, they are subtracting a BIG chunk of the Bible, which Revelation WARNS against.
It is probably going to come to that eventually where I attend SDB church exclusively. It's actually what I really WANT to do anyway. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 974
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 6:14 am: | |
Phil quotes,
1. Jesus gave Peter the authority to determine who was who in his kingdom.
2. 4. The whole reason the Roman Catholic Church teaches that Peter came to Rome is because they understand that no authority on this earth can start without beginning with Peter who personally gets his mandate from Jesus.
3.
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Phil, the Roman Catholic system is pretty much built up on this vague scripture and you will not get many protestant theologians to agree with you on these two statements.
You could start with me, I think this is the Catholic heresy and that is generally what happens when we take a small portion of vague scripture and build a religion around it.
The Protestants seriously and with good reason separate themselves from the Roman Catholic belief system.
Same with the Adventist belief system, although that system is so polluted with heresy that it cannot agree with the Protestants or Catholics.
At least the Protestant can see where the Roman Catholic gets its belief system and while not being able to be in agreement at least can understand the system.
The Adventist belief system however is so twisted and out of joint as to almost be beyond belief that a people could take the Bible and do such a thing, at least one thing is in favor of the Protestant and Catholic belief system there is nothing “Hidden among the stuff”.
The Adventist knows he has to suck his victims in a bit at a time, he will pray upon the weak and uneducated Biblically where at least I can say with some conviction the Protestant and the Catholic belief system is an open system and open to full scrutiny. One can then scrutinize and make up his own mind. At least that is the way it appears to me.
With the Adventist the words “Hiding in plain sight” gives whole new meaning to the words.
River |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 8:06 am: | |
Hi everybody; I'm new to the forum. I wanted to comment that when I was an Adventist, I never heard anybody say they didn't trust Paul's writings. In fact I firmly believed that the whole Bible and Ellen White were in agreement with each other. It wasn't until a friend who had been saved out of Catholicism (saved - I'm learning new terminology!), pointed out that text in Daniel 10:13 about Michael being "one of the chief princes" that I began to wonder if perhaps the Ellen White was a false prophet. That step led to more study until I realized the whole church was false. (Actually it wasn't that simple. My friend had fasted, prayed and talked with me over a period of two years, first!) Now I can see clearly that the SDA church contradicts Paul's writings and in fact the whole Bible!
Dianne |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 323
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 8:23 am: | |
Welcome Diane -- so glad you're here! Isn't this a great group of friends? It is so nice to be among others who understand.
Something I find amazing about the logic used by defenders of Ellen White is that when one of her errors is pointed out (such as what you mentioned above), the defendent will say, "But look over here where she says this!" They seem to miss the whole point that a true prophet doesn't contradict themselves, and neither does "progressive revelation". Neither do God's messages to true prophets "grow into the truth!"
Gilbert Jorgensen |
Doug222
Registered user
Username: Doug222
Post Number: 583
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 8:26 am: | |
Asurprise,
Welcome to the forum. Like you, I never heard anyone in Adventism say that they didn't trust Paul. In fact, I have heard many a sermon from his writings, and their evangelistic efforts use his writings pretty extensively. The problem is that they are taken out of context to support Adventist theology. I have also heard the boast that Adventists, unlike other protestant denoominations use the "whole Bible, and not just the NT. Maybe this is something new, or maybe it is Regional. I know that some "different ideas" have originated in California, where it is my understanding that Adventists tend to be a little "less historic."
Doug |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 81
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 8:26 am: | |
River,
I didn't mean to validate Roman Catholic doctrines. Especially as related to the Pope or anything that would block our direct access to Jesus Christ.
I do believe Peter had special, one-time-only, authority that was given by Jesus to no other apostle. I will do some in-depth Biblical research and get back to you on what I think that authority was.
You have the courage to say, with the leading of the Holy Spirit, what you think. And, I thank you for that.
I have to cut this short for now because tomorrow my drivers expires and I have to go to town to get it renewed. Town is a long ways away.
Your brother in Christ,
Phil |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6194
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 8:27 am: | |
Dear Dianne, Welcome to the forum! So glad you've joined us; we look forward to talking with you.
Yes, I also learned that Paul was inspired, and I was not overtly taught that people didn't trust Paul. For me, the doubt came more in the form of people "explaining away" what Paul would say. They explained away Colossians 2:16-17, the whole book of Galatians, Romans 14, (well, the whole book of Romans, really), the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, the miracle of Pentecost fulfilling Joel 2 (I know--Acts isn't Paul!), Pauls statements about wives being submissive, etc.
Since I've been out, I've run into Adventists who really do think that Paul isn't to be taken at face value.
So yes, they do teach that Paul is fully Scripture, but their own doctrines contradict him--and all of the Bible, as you said!
Colleen |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 8:54 am: | |
When I was an Adventist, I believed the Adventist explanations of all those "difficult" texts of Paul's. If a text seemed to contradict what I believed, I just figured that I didn't understand it and I'd just go on to read texts that I did understand. It's a little embarrassing, looking back, that I bought the whole package, hook, line and sinker.
Anyway, after that text about Michael being "one of the chief princes" was pointed out to me, I was open to the idea that MAYBE Ellen White was false. Next I read a story where someone discovered in Hebrews 9:12 that Jesus had already gone into the Most Holy Place, whereas Ellen White teaches that Jesus didn't go in there until 1844. That was so obvious, especially when you add the other texts in Hebrews that say that. (Heb. 6:19,20 Heb. 9:25) Also there's the fact that Jesus sat down at the right hand of God (Hebrews 10:12) and the Most Holy Place would HAVE to be where God is! No place would be Holier than that!
Then I found out about there being two distinct covenants and the doctrines about the Sabbath and "unclean" meats fell. |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 246
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 9:07 am: | |
Welcome, Dianne.
For me it was the Investigative Judgement that convincved me Adventism was false. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 977
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 9:13 am: | |
Dianne,
Glad you are here this morning, you mentioned your friend who fasted and prayed over a period of two years, I know you are thankful to have friends such as that.
I wanted to mention your friend here because I think it is worth making mention of.
I pray that I can be that kind of friend to my Adventist friends although I do feel I fall far short of your friend.
Maybe you would like to share your story with us at some time.
River |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 326
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 9:51 am: | |
quote:the Most Holy Place would HAVE to be where God is! No place would be Holier than that!
That is a wonderful way to state the obvious! I like it. Also someone doesn't usually "sit down" until they are done!
Gilbert Jorgensen |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 4
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 10:09 am: | |
Actually my story isn't dramatic like a lot of others is. I was just going along being an Adventist. This particular friend read the Bible so much and was such a devoted Christian, that I was surprised that she wasn't an Adventist already. I expected her to study herself right into the SDA church. I was tremendously surprised when it happened the other way around. It's been a little over a year now, so the shock of the SDA church being a false church is starting to wear off.
Dianne |
Doug222
Registered user
Username: Doug222
Post Number: 584
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 10:16 am: | |
Dianne,
Just out of curiosity, how long were you an Adventist? I was a lifelong Adventist, and had quite a bit of "Adventist pride." I too have run into people who I just knew would become Adventist once their eyes were opened to "the truth." If one of them had responded with skepticism, I would have taken it personal. The fact that you didn't is a testament to the working of the Holy SPirit in your life, and your willingness to follow Him whereever he led--even if it meant out of Adventism.
I'd like to hear your story too. It may not seem spectacular to you, but I think that anything that God produces is pretty fantastic. We'd all be blessed to hear how he worked in your life.
Doug |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 979
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 10:26 am: | |
That's so funny Dianne "study herself right into the SDA church!!"
Of course you have to look at it from this noney's point of view to see how funny and comical that was.
That makes my day!
Haw, haw haw. 
River |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1901
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 12:02 pm: | |
quote:Also there's the fact that Jesus sat down at the right hand of God (Hebrews 10:12) and the Most Holy Place would HAVE to be where God is! No place would be Holier than that!
Add to that the fact that Jesus IS God, and their teaching is even more ludicrous!
Jeremy |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 6
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 12:24 pm: | |
Doug; I was raised an Adventist, so I'd been an Adventist for over 50 years. (About 51 and a half actually 
There's not a lot to tell as to my story - just that after my friend pointed out that text in Daniel about Michael being "one of the chief princes," I was willing to look further and see if maybe what I believed was wrong. (Up to that point I had no doubt, but that the SDA church was the one true church.) Next I read one of the many papers she had printed off for me off of the internet. (I had been ignoring that stack of papers, but hadn't thrown them away.) Things just went on from there. I discovered one thing after another about what the Bible REALLY said, including about the two covenants, etc. Towards the end of the summer I felt that the Lord wanted me to get baptized. My friend goes to a church of several families who meet in a home on Sunday mornings. (It's just a Christian church with no name for it in particular.) My friend wanted me to get baptized in her little church. One of the members had a pool, so I got baptized Oct. 1,'06.
I've been going to a non-denominational church with another friend. I enjoy the music in the praise service and most of the sermons have been right on.
It's neat to be able to write to people who AGREE with me, here on this forum! I've written to a lot of Adventists and so far, none of them are seeing the truth. I'm especially writing to my Adventist relatives and plan to keep writing to them.
Dianne |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 334
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 2:36 pm: | |
Dianne,
That sounds so neat! It sounds just like an "early Christian church"!
quote:It's just a Christian church with no name for it in particular.
I'm so happy for you!
Gilbert Jorgensen
(Message edited by jorgfe on July 03, 2007) |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 9
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 3:46 pm: | |
Thank-you
I don't want anyone to think I've figured everything out, though the Holy Spirit has led me out of the darkness of the SDA church. I'm still not sure if God requires tithing or not - though I suspect that in the new covenant, it's not required. As to the state of the dead, I'm not totally sure either yet. It seems that the apostle Paul is saying that a person goes to be with the Lord when he/she dies. Eccl. 9:5,6 seems to be saying the opposite, though I think the phrase "under the sun" at the end of verse 6 may explain what it's saying. For now, I still believe the Adventist way about hell, though the Holy Spirit may change my mind about that too. I'll just need to keep studying and trust in the Lord
Have a nice 4th of July, everybody. I'll "see" you again on the 5th.
Dianne |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 336
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 5:30 pm: | |
Tithing -- I guess it depends on whether you can find a Levite to pay it to. And then as I understand it, tithe was only required from those Jews who raised crops or animals. As a side note, if one wanted to pay money instead of the firstfruits of the crops or animals they could "redeem" the crops or animals they would otherwise bring by paying an extra 20% on the tithe -- making it 10% for crops or animals, and 12% if replaced by cash.
See Leviticus 27:30-32
Gilbert Jorgensen |
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