| Author | Message | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 915 Registered: 10-2002  |
Here I hope to write up a few notes I've jotted down in fits of inspiration over the last few weeks. Don't know how much I'll get to it now, but I wanted to get a place started for this. I'm putting it here in the open forum even though it doesn't directly deal with Adventism -- it's still a very foundational thing, and at some point it will intersect with Adventism in the respect of understanding what the "prophets" part is and is not. Essentially, these notes will deal with Ephesians 2:20, which in context reads: The part in bold is what is often misunderstood and misinterpreted to all sorts of strange purposes and ends. ** The basic misunderstanding is that people who are apostles & prophets are the foundation of the church. ** In contrast, here I will argue that in Ephesians 2:20 - 1) "Apostles" refers to the testimony of the 12 about Jesus Christ, and 2) "Prophets" refers to the testimony of the Old Testament prophets about Jesus Christ. Okay, I'm going to spend a minute getting my head (no, my prayers) together and see what I can write next. Blessings in Jesus, resting in Him-- The Apostle The Prophet Our Savior! | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 918 Registered: 10-2002 |
You'll instantly notice that what I'm arguing for here about Eph.2:20 is a near parallel to the expression, "The Law & Prophets" found throughout the New Testament. Here, however, "the apostles" is the added element. The expression "the prophets" effectively sums up all that prophetically pointed to Jesus the Messiah in the Old Testament. While the Law certainly pointed to Him, it often did so indirectly -- by magnifying sin to drive Israel to recognize her need for the Messiah's grace-given salvation. That takes a bit of explanation, however, so by saying merely "the prophets", things are noticed much quicker -- the Messiah Jesus was immediately and directly forcasted by prophecy given by the prophets. This testimony of the prophets still stood and continues to stand, laying out the historical red carpet for the Messiah, so to speak. His identity was established and confirmed by the prophets. The testimony of the prophets about the Messiah Jesus, however, would be obviously incomplete without the testimony of the 12 apostles who walked with Him and witnessed of His life and resurrection. These two witnesses -- the testimonies of the prophets & the 12 apostles -- comprise the testimony of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. As such, they are the foundation of the church. In using the expression "foundation of the church", it is important to see Ephesians 2:20 through the lens of 1st Corinthians 3:11 -- This shows us that Jesus is THE sole foundation of the church. The reason that "the apostles & the prophets" are called the foundation elsewhere is simply because of their testimony to THE foundation -- Jesus Christ. Although the context also refers to Jesus Christ as "the chief cornerstone"... Haha, okay, wait, I need to modify what I'm writing! Can a guy change what he's saying? Yes. Reading the context carefully, I note that the passage IS speaking of "people", because it is talking about people -- you and I as members of God's house. So I need to modify what I'm saying here, but not too far, because it simply will address a different point. Let me restate my thesis: ** The basic misunderstanding is that people who are called as apostles & prophets are inherently the foundation of the church. (I.e., if a person is an "apostle" today, he/she would have to be a "foundation" of the church) ** In contrast, here I am arguing that in Ephesians 2:20 - 1) "Apostles" refers to the first 12 apostles 2) "Prophets" refers to the testimony of the Old Testament prophets about Jesus Christ (and looking back through time, to the prophets themselves).} Okay, need to catch my breath and prayerfully pause before continuing.  Fun, fun... | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 919 Registered: 10-2002 |
Coming back to the "foundation" -- the foundation is Jesus Christ. The whole building rests on the Chief Cornerstone and in Him is held together, as Colossians 2:19 says, He is -- Elsewhere Paul writes that for Him, through Him and to Him are all things, which most certainly includes every stone (each one of us) in the Church (all of us together through all time). As our lives are given to Him and held together in Him, each one of us becomes "a letter from Christ" and a testimony of Christ. He is THE stone, and we are mini-stones, living stones, built together on top of Him, each one of us testifying to Him who is our Cornerstone, Foundation, and our Capstone. Hence, the testimony of the 12 apostles encapsulates their witness given in word and their lives. Going deeper, as we'll see soon, the lives must fall into the testimony -- our lives must submit to the Gospel testimony. Even in the lives of the 12. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 966 Registered: 9-2006  |
Well I think I see where this is all going to lead, I can’t speak for everyone else but when I use the term foundational apostles and Paul I am not speaking in the context of them laying the foundation of and the church salvation I am merely with a small m referring to the acts of the apostles and our Biblical instruction as to how the church is to be formed and conducted as we have no other real guide that we can depend on. Of course Christ is the foundation we stand on. Just wanted to clear that up, so, sorry for the interruption, go right ahead Ramone River | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 240 Registered: 1-2004  |
Here's an interesting variation on the theme; the story of the "tower" from the "Shepherd of Hermas" written between 100 and 160 AD;
It was a very popular Christian book in the 2nd century. Jeremiah | ||
| Sara Registered user Username: Sara Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2007 |
Ramone, Hmmm, Yes. If I were to diagram that sentence, at some point, we would come to.... (In Christ Jesus)YOU (subject) ARE BUILT (verb) on the FOUNDATION/ (object)? of the apostles and prophets. (adverbial phrase, prepositional phrase?? its been too long! What is the foundation (of the apostles and prophets)? The foundation is Jesus, yes. YOU ARE BUILT ON THE FOUNDATION! Thats very good news. Im not built on the apostles and prophets, Im built on their foundation. So simple now. Was confusing before. THank you. Ok English Majors, tear it apart. There is a reason English wasn't my major. Sara | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 241 Registered: 1-2004 |
Perhaps it's actually an illustration from building construction; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; The first thing you do in making a building is set the cornerstone. Then you lay the rest of the foundation in line with the cornerstone. So if Thomas goes to India and Mark goes to Alexandria and Peter goes to Rome, all must teach and practice directly in line with the Cornerstone. And, ideally, they ordain others and pass the teachings and practices on to them. Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Jeremiah | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 306 Registered: 11-2005 |
Jeremiah -- I always enjoy your insights! You opened my eyes to the eastern and western branches of the early Catholic Church. It has been a fascinating study. It is even more so when Adventists blame western Catholicism for conferences held by eastern Catholicism, eg in reference to the Sabbath. Adventists can't even agree among themselves about history! It's really good to hear from you. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 242 Registered: 1-2004 |
Gilbert, Here's an example from my study you might like... first a quote from B. G. Wilkinson's book "Truth Triumphant";
I actually did some research on this church in China. They were the equivalent of today's Oriental Orthodox churches, in doctrine and practice. We have much of their actual extant writings dating from more than 1000 years ago, discovered in China, and there is even a Christian Pagoda which was probably part of a monastery and dates to 650 AD which is still standing, in China. So I have B.G. Wilkinson's blessing to be Eastern/Oriental Orthodox. One great question for SDA's is about the Byzantine Empire. It lasted a thousand years and didn't fall when the western Roman Empire fell. In that interpretation of Daniel's image, where's the eastern Roman Empire? And, the Byzantines were Christian! Jeremiah | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 315 Registered: 11-2005 |
Jeremiah -- you should be a historian! You bring up so many fascinating points. I never thought about that. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 72 Registered: 5-2007  |
Jeremiah, Your info about the early history of the Christian church in China is so fascinating I would like to learn more. What sources would you recomend? Phil | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 243 Registered: 1-2004 |
Here's a relatively recent article which covers a fair amount of the current research, along with many photos; http://www.orthodox.cn/history/jingjiao/200510tripxian_en.htm If you really want to get into it, get the book "The Jesus Sutras". I have never read that book but it has translations into English of most of the Christian texts discovered in China. Jeremiah | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 318 Registered: 11-2005 |
That is really interesting! Thank you. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 73 Registered: 5-2007 |
Jeremiah, Thanks for the information. I really am very interested. I delve into various history topics including, local and national histories (especially frontier stories), family genealogy, U.S. submarines and anything related to the Bible and Christianity. However, you referred to a topic that I know very little about. Since my grandparents were missionaries in China and my dad was born there, their history is something that has my interest. A number of years ago, the mother of one of my pastors shared her story with me. She was a missionary to the Chinese before and during WWII and ended up being a prisoner in a Japanese POW camp. Her love for the Lord and the Chinese people (and all the lost in the world) was so great you would never suspect some of the trials she lived through. Anyway, she mentioned that Christianity goes way back before the modern era and I have wondered how to learn what she knew. Thanks, I have order the book you recommended and it should be here in a few days. Your brother in Christ, Phil |
