| Author |
Message |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 67
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 5:16 pm: |     |
My thoughts are centered around the phrase; "the lone travelers".
In terms of my "Christian walk" I have not felt alone because Jesus is very real to me, the Holy Spirit has always brought something into my life when I was feeling down to revel how awesome God is and I have always had wonderful brothers and sister in the Lord around me.
However, I have a cloak of sadness around me because I have a concept of my place in history. My family is my history and I know of no one other than myself who has left my "family history", the SDA church, and moved on to a close relationship with the Lord. I am sure there are others within the family who have the same story to tell but I wouldn't know who they are. Each of us, as part of our family, have been traveling this road alone.
Even my cousin, Donald Mote who was an outspoken critic of EGW, conveyed a tone of sadness because he never seemed totally free of the SDA mindset. He could not express an assurance of his salvation. He could only hope and that saddens me.
This forum has changed everything. As a "former" I not longer feel alone. All of you here on the forum have become closer to me than my simple words can express.
Bless you all!
Phil |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6171
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 5:18 pm: | |
Phil, I totally understand what you are saying. This forum has had the same effect on me as well.
Thank you all! And Phil, we're so glad to have you here. You have wisdom and insight, and we're delighted that you're part of the family!
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 963
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 5:42 pm: | |
Phil writes: "Even my cousin, Donald Mote who was an outspoken critic of EGW, conveyed a tone of sadness because he never seemed totally free of the SDA mindset. He could not express an assurance of his salvation. He could only hope and that saddens me.
Phil, recently as I spoke to one of my Adventist friends he said "Oh, I hope so" concerning he salvation, he said this with a deep longing sigh in his voice and it was one of the most excruciating soul rending statements I have ever heard and this thing tears me up. I know what you mean brother. And you are right, you are not alone. Keep looking up brother.
I used to have a Pastor who was always saying to me "Keep looking up brother" and I heard that so often I would sometimes get a just a little erked, Ha, now I notice I sound an awfull lot like that precious Pastor, so "Keep looking up brothers and sisters all.
River |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 964
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 5:53 pm: | |
* A. F. BALLENGER - Superintendent of Ireland, and
a prominent minister for 50 years.
One of the ones on that list above who wended their way down that path.
Can you imagine that? 50 years, that would put him at least 70 or older at the time he made the trek.
What a heritage the former has in its own right.
It reminds me of the great faith chapter in the Bible how it is expounded for us to remember the one that through faith had miracles wrought, their dead brought back to life and on and on.
Got to quit before I get bouncing around and have to buy a new office chair!
River |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1128
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 7:50 pm: | |
This thread alone has more people posting than the German-speaking SDA country church I grew up in had as members. Sometimes I was the only young person in church. If I behaved properly, the elderly deacon would give me some SEN SEN afterwards from a small paper packet as a reward. How many of you have eaten the tiny, black, flat, square-shaped pieces of SEN SEN? Now I really feel ancient. Of course, there was no symbol of the Cross in sight in any part of that church nor on the outside.
However, a yellowing Ten Commandment frame (plaque) was on the wall right behind the pulpit. My youngest sister was able to retrieve this plague and an enamel-coated footwashing basin when the church was disbanded many years ago. Our family has an assortment of Adventist relics (smile). Oh yes, I have a copy of Dr. John Harvey Kellogg's large-sized book entitled, "Sunbeams of Health and Temperance" copyrighted in 1887. The University of Michigan library, with their Kellogg Collection, has wanted me to donate it or sell it to them. However, I have no intention of doing that.
River, thanks for sharing the real reason why the old "Christ in Song" hymnal went out of print so suddenly. There was no Spectrum, Adventist Today, or Internet to keep us informed in yesteryear. We only learned about things the SDA leaders wanted us to know (i.e., the latest Signs goal, Liberty goal, Ingathering goal, Sabbath School and Missions offering goal, ad infinitum). There is so much information we learn from each other. Truly, Adventism has wounded many of their faithful warriors.
Dennis Fischer
(Message edited by Dennis on June 29, 2007) |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 965
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 8:03 pm: | |
I remember SEN SEN Dennis, if we are that old how old is dirt?  |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1129
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 9:21 pm: | |
River,
Apparently, we belong to the so-called "Golden Age" club. If I remember right, SEN SEN tasted alot like licorice--only more hot. I also remember the coffee-flavored Postum and the regular stuff. Then Sanka coffee came on the market as a decaffeinated instant coffee. The German name for sin is "sunde," so the Adventists called it "sunde" coffee. Although we occasionally drank Sanka coffee, the Adventists actually never felt comfortable drinking it--not something to serve your pastor.
Dennis Fischer |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1596
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 9:41 pm: | |
Hey! I remember sen sen, my grandmother used to give it to me...kindof black licorice tasting stuff. I didn't like it and think it was just the novelty of the size and texture.
And I am not old! |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 632
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 10:30 pm: | |
Dennis, apparently Sen-sen was originally meant to cover up the smell of tobacco!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sen-Sen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 3897
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 4:21 am: | |
When I left adventism for good 3 1/2 years ago I thought I was the only one. It was such a joy to find all the web sites on the internet. I wrote to a couple of the pastors and one was Dennis. I think it was you Dennis that wrote back and said something to the effect about finding a place where I could contribute also. I forget the exact words. All I wanted was a place to learn about the gospel, not contribute anything. What I have learned is that I was not alone. God was with me, even If I did not have a human companion. Then when God took me to the church of His choice for me, I jumped right in, feet first so to speak, and started giving back. It just happened automatically. I am no longer alone. God has provided my internet family that understands from where I came and share with me what we are learning about Jesus and the Bible. He has provided a church family.
River, the rich spiritual heritage you pointed out is very interesting. I am not the only one who left. It appears that from day 1 others knew what was happening to the adventists, pointed it out and got ostracized. Thank God for the internet. God, You are so awesome.
Diana |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 307
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 11:05 pm: | |
Here is more interesting info about F.E. Belden and how he tested the authenticity of his aunt Ellen's "inspiration".
http://www.ex-sda.com/e_s_ballenger.htm |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 308
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 11:52 pm: | |
More about Belden from the White Estate:
http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/heritage/2001/hymn-2.html
"In 1895 he published Gospel Song Sheaf; in 1900, Christ in Song and books of patriotic music. For a time he served as a superintendent at the Review and Herald Publishing Association. About 1910 he began to write songs for evangelist Billy Sunday, which were included in his book Songs for the King’s Business.
Unfortunately, a misunderstanding arose between him and Adventist leaders concerning royalties for his books. The matter was never satisfactorily settled. After his death on December 2, 1945, all his papers and manuscripts were deposited at the Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary."
About Billy Sunday:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Sunday
"Billy Sunday was a conservative evangelical who accepted fundamentalist doctrines. He affirmed and preached the inerrancy of the Bible, the virgin birth of Christ, the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, a literal devil and hell, and the imminent return of Jesus Christ. At the turn of the 20th century, most Protestant church members, regardless of denomination, gave assent to these doctrines (except, perhaps, for the imminent return of Christ). Sunday refused to hold meetings in cities where he was not welcomed by the vast majority of the Protestant churches and their clergy. (Dissenting clergymen found it politic to limit their objections to Sunday's theology while he was adding new members to their congregations.)[40]
Nevertheless, Sunday was not a separationist as were most orthodox Protestants of his era. He went out of his way to avoid criticizing the Roman Catholic Church and even met with Cardinal Gibbons during his 1916 Baltimore campaign. Also, cards filled out by "trail hitters" were faithfully returned to the church or denomination that the writers had indicated as their choice—including Catholic and Unitarian.[41]
Although Sunday was ordained by the Presbyterian Church in 1903, his ministry was nondenominational, and he was not a strict Calvinist. He preached that individuals were, at least in part, responsible for their own salvation. “Trail hitters” were given a four-page tract that stated, “if you have done your part (i.e. believe that Christ died in your place, and receive Him as your Saviour and Master) God has done HIS part and imparted to you His own nature.”[42]"
This is fascinating. Belden was a really big name in Adventist hymnology.
Gilbert Jorgensen |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 309
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 11:58 pm: | |
Additional confirmation from the Oakwood College website -
http://www.oakwood.edu/ocgoldmine/sdoc/sureword/question.htm
"Ellen White also spoke in general terms, as in these words: "We have a hell to shun and a heaven to win."[Ref 7] And she also spoke in direct, personal terms, as in a letter to her nephew Franklin E. Belden, whom she feared was going in the wrong direction.
Belden, the son of her sister Sarah, held a responsible position in the denomination's first publishing enterprise in Battle Creek. He wrote more lyrics and tunes for gospel songs than probably any other Adventist composer. At the ministerial pre-session preceding the General Conference at Minneapolis in 1888, he was selected secretary of the pre-session. He was, in short, a prominent leader in the church. Ellen White urged him not to be one of "Noah's carpenters."[Ref 8] What a graphic metaphor! Those carpenters built a ship that could have saved them. They were inside the ark before the Flood, hammering away at the struts and joists. But when the water came they stood outside the ark, hammering -in vain- on the door to be admitted.
But sadly, Belden did not heed the warning. This latter-day "sweet singer of Israel," as he was sometimes called, separated from the church around 1907 because a number of grievances were not resolved to his satisfaction. In the autumn of 1945 Belden was living in Cleveland, Ohio. A young Adventist minister named Kenneth H. Wood, and an older preacher named Carlyle B. Haynes, called on him to talk about his soul. But he remained as ever the recalcitrant curmudgeon.
When the ministers were about to leave, they asked Belden if they might at least offer a word of prayer. He retorted, "Not as long as you believe in that woman." They departed without prayer and with very heavy hearts."
So what Monica Vowless wrote is not just hearsay. This is an absolutely fascinating story!
Gilbert Jorgensen |
Bobj
Registered user
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 216
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 9:00 am: | |
I think that Dr. Richard Hammill, former president of Andrews University and leader of the committee that wrote the SDA Bible commentary series also left Adventism.
Can anyone confirm this?
When I was at Andrews one of the union leaders came into our classroom and said that by their own research, 50 percent of SDA pastors would leave the ministry if they could. That was in the early 1970s.
If I am correct, Richard Hammill left about the time he retired.
Bob |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1132
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 6:22 pm: | |
Bob,
I have also heard that Dr. Richard Hammill left Adventism. I don't recall my source for this information. Through most of his life, he was considered to be a very conservative Adventist. Truly, alot of us can identify with that.
Gilbert,
Interesting historical information about F. E. Belden. Music is a wonderful, international language. Thanks for sharing.
Dennis Fischer |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 319
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 10:34 am: | |
Colleen would be as likely as anyone to know about Richard Hammill's later years. I knew him when he was President at Andrews University, and I went to Andrews Academy with his daughter Marcia. I have always respected his deep study and scholarly approach. He wrote some really good material that was printed in Adventist Today.
Contrast that with the way Cliiford Goldstein blows him off at http://www.atomorrow.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=1780&post=33309#POST33309
Here are some links I found:
http://www.atoday.com/magazine/archive/1997/marapr1997/news/Tribute.shtml
http://www.atomorrow.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-profile.cgi?action=rate&topic=8&page=502&post=2837
http://www.answers.com/topic/adventist-today
states:
"The idea of the magazine (Adventist Today) was conceived in 1992 by Raymond Cottrell, Keith Colburn, Richard Hammill, Ervin Taylor and Jim Walters all of Loma Linda, California. They sought for "objective news and open discussion of issues in order to achieve the representative type of church governance that it claims".
It appears that the last few years before he died he attended Dennis Hokama's Sabbath School class. See http://www.atomorrow.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=1780&post=33310#POST33310
Gilbert Jorgensen |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6184
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 2:40 pm: | |
I actually don't don't about Richard Hammill. I did a Google search and discovered that Andrews University Press is selling Hammill's autobiography which they published. The last section includes three chapters:
PART 5: Retirement Years
18. Enjoying Life
19. Reflections on Christian Administration
20. Reflections on My Own Spiritual Pilgrimage
There's no ability to read segments from the last chapter online...I really don't know what happened to him or what he did. It appears that he remained perhaps at least somewhat loyal since Andrews published his autobiography, but even this fact is inconclusive.
I just don't know.
Colleen |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 320
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 3:56 pm: | |
If you go to http://books.google.com and do a search on "richard hammill pilgrimage" the Historical Dictionary of Seventh-day Adventists comes up with a write-up about Richard Hammill. It says he lived 1913-1997. He retired in 1980, and published his autobiography in 1992. Unless there is definite evidence of a "falling out" that would cause him to actually renounce his Adventist Membership, I would suspect that he remained a Seventh-day Adventist until he died.
He was quiet and methodical in his research. He just doesn't strike me as the type that would "jump ship" in the last few years of his life.
As mentioned above, Dennis Hokama said Richard Hammill attended his Sabbath School class within the last few years before he died.
http://www.andrews.edu/library/car/collection/H/Hammill,%20Richard%20papers.pdf says "In 1976 Hammill returned to the General Conference as a vice president, a position he held until his retirement in 1980. In this role he was deeply involved in the Desmond Ford study and the Glacier View meeting which he planned. He died on March 28, 1997, after a long battle with cancer at his home in College Place, Washington."
http://www.zoominfo.com/search/PersonDetail.aspx?PersonID=4545509 also provides interesting information.
http://www.atoday.com/magazine/archive/1997/marapr1997/index.html features Richard Hammill.
http://www.atoday.com/magazine/archive/1997/marapr1997/articles/HammillInterview.shtml includes an interview by Jim Walters in 1996, one year before Richard Hammill's death. It also says, "Although Richard Hammill died in Walla Walla, Washington, he and his wife Dena lived in Loma Linda for many of their retirement years."
The results of my research would seem to suggest that there is no indication that he renounced his SDA membership.
Gilbert Jorgensen |
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