| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3862 Registered: 3-2004  |
Today in Guest Central a young man came up to me and asked me of the organizational structure of our church. I asked him what he meant and he started talking of prophets, apostles and a chapter in Ephesians. I immediately told him when it comes to prophets, I leave it alone because of my legalistic background and the false prophet that church had. I referred him to the ministers offices up stairs. Later I saw Pastor Hannah and told him about this. Apparently there is a movement that is going around trying to tell other churches that they are not organized correctly, according to the Bible with prophets, apostles, etc. Pastor Hannah said they just like to make trouble. Have any of you heard of this?? Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1123 Registered: 4-2000  |
Diana, Similarly, in a recent IM conversation with Martin in Denmark, I learned that there is a new movement to translate the Danish Bible into the most-accommodating words of the KJV (a KJV-ONLY movement). This is a movement that many Adventists would delight in. Recently, Sylvia had me pick up some gravy mix at the local Adventist Book Center. While there, I quickly browsed their products. I noticed a jigsaw puzzle depicting Ellen White on sale. What fun! Also, several different bindings of the CLEAR WORD BIBLE were on sale. I only noticed KJV and NKJV Bibles for sale (NIV, ESV, and NASB were not on the shelf). Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6122 Registered: 12-2003  |
Most interesting, Dennis! Hmmm...a jigsaw puzzle of Ellen White seems oddly appropriate... In the Adventist Book Center in Loma Linda I have seen NIV's for sale, but I think they would have a hard time getting away with excluding them in this particular environment. (You know, "Southern California Adventists"...) Today a couple of our guests had recently received a catalog from the Adventist Book Center in the mail. One of the people said that they are now advertising several different editions of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs, each targeted and written for a different age group. Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 771 Registered: 7-2004  |
Ephesians 2:19-21: "So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord," If the apostles and prophets were the foundation of the church, why do we need new apostles and prophets this far later into the building? Like Grace_Alone said in a different post somewhere else, there is a gift of prophecy that continues which has nothing to do with a "prophet" and nothing to do with visions or predicting the future. But I see this verse as pretty clear evidence the role of official apostles and prophects served a very specific purpose that was only for the foundation. That part is done. In fact, recently I did a brief study on the word "apostle" by looking up all the verses through Biblegateway. The best I can tell, the biblical definition of an apostle is someone who has both literally seen Jesus and has been set apart by God for the Gospel. See Romans 1:1 and 1 Corinthians 9:1. Then in 2 Corinthians 11:13 and Revelation 2:2 it speaks of false apostles. I wonder if false apostles are ones who have not really seen Jesus and have not been set apart by God for the Gospel. I'd bet anyone today (or beyond the initial foundation of the church) claiming to be an apostle or prophet is a false one. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3865 Registered: 3-2004 |
"I wonder if false apostles are ones who have not really seen Jesus and have not been set apart by God for the Gospel. I'd bet anyone today (or beyond the initial foundation of the church) claiming to be an apostle or prophet is a false one." Yes, I agree with this. Thanks Raven. Diana | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 53 Registered: 5-2007  |
To support what Ravin is saying, "an apostle being one who has seen Jesus", consider the following verses that teach what it takes to be a witness (there are many more verses): II Cor. 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. Deut. 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. According to the law, it would take at least two witnesses to establish a fact. The "fact", in this case, being who is Jesus Christ, what did he do and why did he do it. To be one of these witnesses you would have had to been with Jesus and seen what he did during his ministry here on earth. And, you would have had to seen the results. Among other things, you would have to be able to testify concerning his resurrection. Our hope is based on the fact that he did not stay in the grave. No one alive today can possibly fit that kind of qualification. Therefore, no one in modern times can be other than a false prophet or apostle. Phil | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 930 Registered: 9-2006  |
Quote: Like Grace_Alone said in a different post somewhere else, there is a gift of prophecy that continues which has nothing to do with a "prophet" and nothing to do with visions or predicting the future. Grace_alone is absolutely right Raven. What you said "I'd bet anyone today (or beyond the initial foundation of the church) claiming to be an apostle or prophet is a false one." That would also be true seems to me. In one sense all Christians are prophets if they speak the prophetic word of God, wouldn't you think? River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3868 Registered: 3-2004 |
As Pastor Hannah said to me we all have different gifts which are used when God wants them used. See you all tomorrow. I have to go to bed now. Diana | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 621 Registered: 4-2006  |
Hello everybody! Diana, I think thats "The New Apostolic Reformation" movement. This site explains a bit more about it and you can order a great DVD set about the movement as well: http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/nardvd.html Its quite good and has some quite interesting footage, I agree with most of it though I think they are wrong on the Women Issue and their Armenian view on salvation. In Jesus, Martin | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 622 Registered: 4-2006 |
Just a footnote, I think one can talk about foundational apostles and prophets, those guys wrote our scriptures inspired by God. I believe we have prophets and apostles today, but they aren't foundational. Apostles are simply missionaries sent out to plant new churches, and true prophets are not adding to the scriptures but explaining them and laying them out. BTW In Denmark and I think generally in Europe there is a church called Apostolic Church, which is a further branch of the pentecostal movement, they have some teaching on these things as well. Also the NAR movement seems to be an extension of the New Order of the Latter Rain movement. In His amazing grace, Martin | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 940 Registered: 9-2006 |
The word apostle means to be a follower, disciple, missionary, messenger, and in that sense all Christians are called to be apostles and no added meaning should be given the word to set one apart from the other seems to me. Then there are the 12 foundational apostles and then Paul. No other foundation is to be laid other than he apostolic teachings of those foundational apostles for the church. As to prophets Corinthians I 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. This is what the Bible says (above) a prophet would be one who speaks forth by the Holy Spirit what ever he might speak to his people, not necessarily by a particular person but as the Holy Spirit gives utterance I would think. I think these gifts are imparted according to the Holy Spirits purposes and not to tag someone with the name of prophet and make him some great something which he is not. I have been used by the Holy Spirit to speak forth a word of knowledge, does that mean every word I speak is a word of knowledge? Of course not, that is ridicules. If we want to get the big head just because the Holy Spirit speaks through us just remember that he used a donkey to speak to Balaam Numbers 22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? And Jesus said that if they didn’t praise him the rocks would cry out, so we don’t really need to get carried away with ourselves just because God works through us in some particular way. Anytime anybody gets to abusing the gifts of the Spirit and setting themselves up (or) allowing anyone else to set them up as being something special is heading for trouble is what I think so we need to be careful about such things. We need to check it out and consider all thing prayerfully and if things don’t line up ask the Lord to help us with wisdom. River | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 914 Registered: 10-2002  |
Hi Diana, I have more than a bit of experience with the "new apostolic reformation" movement. The root problem is not simply bad hermeneutics, but is an issue of *authority*. There is also a misunderstanding of prophecy and what it means to be an apostle. Unfortunately, the misunderstanding of "apostle" isn't limited to this movement. People in many churches tend to look at them as the most authoritative of "church offices", but Paul said they are like men put on display at the end -- they are the least honored, in other words. Anyway, I jotted down some notes on this subject awhile ago and they've been sitting at home. I'll try to type them up sometime soon. Blessings in Jesus, the Apostle & High Priest we call on! Ramone | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3882 Registered: 3-2004 |
Ramone, Thanks for the reminder that Jesus is the Apostle and High Priest we call on. He is always consistent and does not flip flop. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 916 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi Diana, I'm starting to put up some notes about "apostles & prophets" on this thread: http://64.226.233.122/discus/messages/11/5685.html?1183208387 The movement you had a brief encounter with is built on a misunderstanding of the verse in that thread, Ephesians 2:20. Blessings in Jesus, Ramone | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 917 Registered: 10-2002 |
I just re-read this quote of Raven's: Wow, that really says it in such a way that it is incredibly deep and incredibly true. False apostles--in any age--are ones who have not truly seen Jesus and have not been "sent" by Him ("apostle" simply means "a sent one"). I know some prophets and apostles here and there, but they are not insistent on getting recognition of their status -- they're too busy doing their job of testifying Jesus. However, as I'm hoping to show in the thread I linked above for Diana, anyone claiming that he or she is a "foundation" of the church because he/she is an apostle or prophet (or that a church must have an apostle or prophet at its head), well, that person is smoking spiritual crack, if you know what I mean! In Jesus! Ramone |
