Author |
Message |
Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris
Post Number: 50 Registered: 5-2007
| Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 5:25 pm: | |
Thank you Dennis: At Dennis Fisher's recommendation I acquired and have just finished reading the book, White Washed , by Sydney Cleveland. With so much evidence proving, over and over, that EGW was a false prophet, it just boggles the mind that more people don't see the truth. But then, there was a time when I didn't see. It clearly explains what is wrong about SDA doctrine and goes far beyond my own research. One of the things the book did was to clear up a false idea that I still retained about the fall of Adam and Eve. Even though the Bible clearly says that Adam was with Eve (Gen. 3:1-6) when they both ate of the forbidden fruit together, because EGW stated the Eve had separated herself from the side of Adam, I have retained the idea that first Eve sinned and then went out to find Adam and then he sinned. What has puzzled me all these years is how Adam could have received the blame for the fall of mankind when, according to EGW, Eve sinned first. It is a sobering discovery that one of Ellen's lies has stayed with me for so long even after leaving the SDA church. One pleasant surprise is on page 148. Cleveland proves that the Day Of Atonement was not held on Oct. 22, 1844, but was, in fact, held on September 23rd. This, of course, proves Ellen was wrong from the very moment she opened her mouth and stated that she had a message from God. In documenting this, the first reference listed is by Donald E. Mote. He is my cousin. His mother and my grandmother were sisters. He did his best to warn us for over sixty or so years about the false teachings of the SDA church. Our family was on the mailing list for a publication put out named "The Gathering Call". Much to my regret, when I was still in the SDA church, I and all those around me considered him the heretic and were blind to what he had to say. Phil |
Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 3863 Registered: 3-2004
| Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 5:32 pm: | |
So we thank God that He does not waste a thing from our past. Thank you God. Diana |
Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 3864 Registered: 3-2004
| Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 5:32 pm: | |
That is interesting. He is your cousin. So we thank God that He does not waste a thing from our past. Thank you God. Diana |
Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris
Post Number: 51 Registered: 5-2007
| Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 5:40 pm: | |
Diana, Yes. Since he lives near the Tinkers, in Riverside, CA, I have giving the contact infomation to Colleen. One odd thing, Andrews University purchased his whole research library a few years ago. One can only wonder why. Personally, I think they might be tring to hide what he has proven. Phil |
Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1124 Registered: 4-2000
| Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 6:21 pm: | |
Phil, I am glad you read Sydney Cleveland's book, "White Washed." I was stunned by Ellen White's photograph, shown in the beginning pages of the book, with her "pug-nose" from her childhood accident. Sylvia and I often wondered why Ellen White regarded herself so homely when her official, air-brushed photographs always looked so nice and grandmotherly. We can't even trust the White Estate in regard to her pictures. Dennis Fischer |
Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6121 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 7:29 pm: | |
Phil, How amazing. I remember reading Sydney Cleveland's book a few months after leaving the church. I was riveted. I had begun to teach at Arrowhead Christian Academy, and I remember going to the library for a few days during my prep period (because another class was being held in my classroom) and sitting a a table reading that book instead of grading. I was completely amazed by what I read. You are right; that book is absolutely a must-read. It truly illuminates a great many details about Ellen and resolves a lot of underlying confusion about her. Colleen |
Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris
Post Number: 52 Registered: 5-2007
| Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 7:52 pm: | |
Dennis, Yes, I did also find her pictures being kind of odd. Since I grew up and lived most of my life in the Napa Valley, I had the opportunity to tour Elmshaven and remember her official pictures looking nothing like what was in the book except for the retouched one. My grandmother (dad's mother, not my mother's mother mentioned in the above post) knew Ellen and described her to me. That also was different from what was shown in the book. Since my father was a professional photographer and he trained me in darkroom work, I am familiar with how a picture can be altered with an airbrush and other techniques. I learned at an early age to not trust "photo evidence" because it is simple to make changes. Phil |
Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 302 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 10:11 pm: | |
Phil -- I too found the "truth" about Adam and Eve and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil to be enlightening. The children's Bible Story books go into great detail including a full page picture of how Even was alone, and then went to look for Adam. I did not know any different until WhiteWashed pointed it out to me. Of course Ellen White, who "is a continuing and authoritative source of truth" said that: "Satan, who is the father of lies, deceived Adam in a similar way, telling him that he need not obey God, that he would not die if he transgressed the law." Evangelism, p. 598. Sister Ellen further reveals to us that it was an apple: "Like Adam and Eve, who took the apple from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and ate it, our own sheep and lambs are swallowing the deceptive morsels of error offered them in the pages of this book. I am instructed to warn our brethren and sisters not to discuss the nature of our God."—Letter 224, 1903. In Areopagitica (1644), Milton explicitly described the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil as an apple. Since Ellen appears to have used Milton's Paradise Lost as the theme for her Great Controversy story that is not surprising. The Bible states: "And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." 1 Timothy 2:14 As you can see it is impossible to get the complete picture without the fortuitous assistance of the Pen of Disinformation. My copy of the denominationally printed "Clear Word Bible" eliminates any remaining contradictions by "clearly" stating some critical points the other Bible translators overlooked: "The woman saw how good the fruit looked as the serpent ate it. Suddenly she felt a strong urge to eat it, too. She took a bite and instantly felt a surge of energy. Excited, she took more fruit and ran to find her husband. When Adam saw her, he knew what she had done and also what the consequences would be. But in the blush of her excitement, she looked more beautiful than ever. He couldn't bear the thought of living without her, so he quickly took the fruit and ate it also. ", Genesis 3:6 Clear Word Bible, written by Jack Blanco, chairman of the religion department at Southern College of Seventh-day Adventists. Seriously, any honest Seventh-day Adventist can not help but see that Ellen White has taken extensive liberties to add numerous details that simply don't exist in the bible. at the same time she has the nerve to castigate the Catholics for much smaller changes! Gilbert Jorgensen |
Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6130 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 11:33 am: | |
Gilbert, your quote from The Clear Word above really does include material from Ellen's books. I have a friend who recently (within the past two years) left the SDA church. A family member of hers who is an Adventist pastor has said that her experience of knowing Jesus and being born again is that same surge of energy and excitement that Eve experienced when she ate of the tree. It is, in other words, a deception of Satan. Your post is so true, Gilbert. Colleen |
Reb Registered user Username: Reb
Post Number: 189 Registered: 5-2007
| Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 11:55 am: | |
I just wonder IF I bought a Clear Word sat down with my wife and compared it with her to a regular Bible what would happen? Maybe I should try this? Or maybe I should just leave well enough alone and be glad she's at least letting me pursue my new beliefs? |
Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1890 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 12:30 pm: | |
Colleen, yep, for his "Bible," in this verse, Blanco just deleted the Biblical text and put in Ellen's "account" instead!
quote:"The tempter assured Eve that as soon as she ate of the fruit she would receive a new and superior knowledge that would make her equal with God. He called her attention to himself. He ate freely of the tree and found it not only perfectly harmless, but delicious and exhilarating; and told her that it was because of its wonderful properties to impart wisdom and power that God had prohibited them from tasting or even touching it; for he knew its wonderful qualities. He stated that by eating of the fruit of the tree forbidden them was the reason he had attained the power of speech. He intimated that God would not carry out his word. It was merely a threat to intimidate them and keep them from great good. He further told them that they could not die. Had they not eaten of the tree of life which perpetuates immortality? He said that God was deceiving them to keep them from a higher state of felicity and more exalted happiness. The tempter plucked the fruit and passed it to Eve. She took it in her hand. Now, said the tempter, you were prohibited from even touching it lest you die. He told her that she would realize no more sense of evil and death in eating than in touching or handling the fruit. Eve was emboldened because she felt not the immediate signs of God's displeasure. She thought the words of the tempter all wise and correct. She ate, and was delighted with the fruit. It seemed delicious to her taste, and she imagined that she realized in herself the wonderful effects of the fruit. She then plucked for herself of the fruit and ate, and imagined she felt the quickening power of a new and elevated existence as the result of the exhilarating influence of the forbidden fruit. She was in a strange and unnatural excitement as she sought her husband, with her hands filled with the forbidden fruit. She related to him the wise discourse of the serpent, and wished to conduct him at once to the tree of knowledge. She told him she had eaten of the fruit, and instead of her feeling any sense of death, she realized a pleasing, exhilarating influence. As soon as Eve had disobeyed, she became a powerful medium through which to occasion the fall of her husband." (The Spirit of Prophecy, Volume One, pages 37-39.) "The serpent plucked the fruit of the forbidden tree and placed it in the hands of the half-reluctant Eve. Then he reminded her of her own words, that God had forbidden them to touch it, lest they die. She would receive no more harm from eating the fruit, he declared, than from touching it. Perceiving no evil results from what she had done, Eve grew bolder. When she 'saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat.' It was grateful to the taste, and as she ate, she seemed to feel a vivifying power, and imagined herself entering upon a higher state of existence. Without a fear she plucked and ate. And now, having herself transgressed, she became the agent of Satan in working the ruin of her husband. In a state of strange, unnatural excitement, with her hands filled with the forbidden fruit, she sought his presence, and related all that had occurred. An expression of sadness came over the face of Adam. He appeared astonished and alarmed. To the words of Eve he replied that this must be the foe against whom they had been warned; and by the divine sentence she must die. In answer she urged him to eat, repeating the words of the serpent, that they should not surely die. She reasoned that this must be true, for she felt no evidence of God's displeasure, but on the contrary realized a delicious, exhilarating influence, thrilling every faculty with new life, such, she imagined, as inspired the heavenly messengers. Adam understood that his companion had transgressed the command of God, disregarded the only prohibition laid upon them as a test of their fidelity and love. There was a terrible struggle in his mind. He mourned that he had permitted Eve to wander from his side. But now the deed was done; he must be separated from her whose society had been his joy. How could he have it thus? Adam had enjoyed the companionship of God and of holy angels. He had looked upon the glory of the Creator. He understood the high destiny opened to the human race should they remain faithful to God. Yet all these blessings were lost sight of in the fear of losing that one gift which in his eyes outvalued every other. Love, gratitude, loyalty to the Creator--all were overborne by love to Eve. She was a part of himself, and he could not endure the thought of separation. He did not realize that the same Infinite Power who had from the dust of the earth created him, a living, beautiful form, and had in love given him a companion, could supply her place. He resolved to share her fate; if she must die, he would die with her. After all, he reasoned, might not the words of the wise serpent be true? Eve was before him, as beautiful and apparently as innocent as before this act of disobedience. She expressed greater love for him than before. No sign of death appeared in her, and he decided to brave the consequences. He seized the fruit and quickly ate. After his transgression Adam at first imagined himself entering upon a higher state of existence. But soon the thought of his sin filled him with terror. The air, which had hitherto been of a mild and uniform temperature, seemed to chill the guilty pair. The love and peace which had been theirs was gone, and in its place they felt a sense of sin, a dread of the future, a nakedness of soul. The robe of light which had enshrouded them, now disappeared, and to supply its place they endeavored to fashion for themselves a covering; for they could not, while unclothed, meet the eye of God and holy angels." (Patriarchs and Prophets, pages 55-57.)
So the surge of energy and excitement stuff comes straight from Ellen! The Bible says no such thing. Isn't it incredible how much she thought she could add (and delete/change/contradict) to the short Biblical account?! "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar." (Proverbs 30:5-6 NIV.) And compare Genesis 3:6 with Blanco's LONG version that Gilbert quoted above: "When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate." (NASB.) Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on June 25, 2007) |
Reb Registered user Username: Reb
Post Number: 191 Registered: 5-2007
| Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 12:39 pm: | |
As for me I will stick with what the Bible says. I don't need EGWs additions and counterdictions of the Bible. Bible and Bible ONLY for me!!!!!! |
River Registered user Username: River
Post Number: 932 Registered: 9-2006
| Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 2:48 pm: | |
As for me I'm going to be sick. excuse me while I toss my chicken. |
River Registered user Username: River
Post Number: 934 Registered: 9-2006
| Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 3:09 pm: | |
Good old Ellen sure was assumptive wasn't she? |
Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6137 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 3:46 pm: | |
Yep, she was. And the energy expended to continue to explain and protect her supposed reliability is amazing. Colleen |
River Registered user Username: River
Post Number: 938 Registered: 9-2006
| Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 8:12 pm: | |
You know, I just got to wondering tonight. What I wondered about was this. How many In Adventism stay there and live with the cognitive dissonances simply because of self preservation. 1. If I rock the boat then what will happen to me? 2. If i ask an open question, then what will happen to me? 3. If I disagree then what will happen to me? 4. I know many things sound wrong, but what will happen to me? 5. What will my family think? 6. What will my friends think? 7. I am afraid. Self centered, all about self. Things like that. I wonder if I am ready to lay it all down for Jesus like the apostle Paul? River |
Sara Registered user Username: Sara
Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2007
| Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 8:45 pm: | |
Yes, River, There is also the following, * what about my marriage? * what about my children? How will I explain to them? what about their friends? *for some of us, what about our livlihood? *what about the hearts of family members that I will break? * what about family memebers in poor health, and the shock to their system? But the KICKER...WHAT IF I AM DECIEVED!! What if I am wrong? What if I let go of the rope, and nothing else is there?? Yes, but God is good, and He is faithful. He changes us so that service and obedience to Him becomes more natural and compelling than self-preservation. That is a miracle. He equips those He calls out of bondage to Adventism. He gives us His love, which casts out (forceably throws out) fear. River, sometimes after a post you say you are overcome. I feel that! I feel full of praise. He just reaches through all that fear, all the unknowns, and gives faith and trust. Oh Praise Him. He is Holy. And people try to say He doesnt do miracles anymore! Am I ready to lay it down for Jesus like the Apostle Paul? Yes. Is there anyone else here ready!! Today is the day. (Quote a song by Darrell Evans --Trading My Sorrows) I'm trading my sorrow I'm trading my shame I'm laying it down for the joy of the Lord I'm trading my sickness I'm trading my pain I'm laying it down for the joy of the Lord Chorus: And we say yes Lord yes Lord yes yes Lord Yes Lord yes Lord yes yes Lord Yes Lord yes Lord yes yes Lord Amen Sara. |
Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 3871 Registered: 3-2004
| Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 9:02 pm: | |
Sara, I feel tears coming to my eyes after reading those words. God is so good, God is so good. He is so awesome. Diana |
Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6141 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 9:31 pm: | |
Sara, your post completely summed up my own experience. I had almost every one of those fears, and the central one around which they all turned was, "What if I am deceived?" It is a complete miracle when God equips us to leave. We have to know that we want Jesus above all, or the obstacles would just be too great. The deepening and insight occurs only AFTER the obedience. When He beckons us and we hold back, we cease to grow and deepen until we finally obey. A great many of our loved ones get stuck on that fear of loss and fear of being deceived. It's truly a choice that feels like a free-fall off a cliff with no bottom in sight. Leaving Adventism is totally a leap into the dark on the basis of faith in Jesus alone. It is the most unnerving, risky thing I have ever done. And Jesus' rescue was astonishing. As soon as I risked the leap off that cliff, He caught me, and what He has given me in Himself has so far surpassed anything I had or imagined that I cannot say enough to express how wonderful He is. Colleen |
Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi
Post Number: 136 Registered: 10-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 7:02 am: | |
I've heard more than one Adventist friend say that they agree that the religion teaches a false gospel, that Ellen White was a false prophet, that the church exemplifies cult-like tendencies. I ask them at this point why they stay in. I get answers like, "it's the culture I grew up in and I'm comfortable in it". Sad thing is, so many Adventists simply make up their own version of what they believe in without consulting the Holy Spirit for direction. Either they are being unfaithful through denial of what the Spirit has shown them, or they are deceiving themselves in order to be comfortable in a zone that denies the Spirit access to their deepest soul level in an honest search for Christ as their Saviour. If this sounds judgemental, it is. I'm simply reporting what I keep hearing and drawing conclusions based on what the Bible has to say about complacency and "another gospel", and false teachings. steve |
Sara Registered user Username: Sara
Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2007
| Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 7:15 am: | |
Steve, I lived with the same conclusions your friends have come to for several years in adventism. (Maybe not quite as strong about FALSE prophet, gospel etc.). Why did I stay in? I don't think I had any clue that there was something better on a personal level. I think I thought I would trade one church with problems, for a different church with problems. I had no concept at all that to leave Adventism would mean to gain so much more. I repeat, I HAD NO CONCEPT! I didnt know of the richness of Jesus alone for salvation. I didnt know of the joy of being born again. I didnt know that when I answered God's call to leave, that he would become real to me, and that it would beat anything else the world or a church community would offer. I thank you for you post. It helps me to have a focus when I speak to my Adventist friends. I think we have to speak of the MORE of Jesus, of how He blesses us, and less of anything else. Sara |
Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 621 Registered: 6-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 7:50 am: | |
Sara, I don't believe that the SDA church wants anyone to have the concept! You grow up in SDA schools, SDA churches, SDA friends, SDA family, SDA colleges, even get jobs with SDA employers. All of that "protects" you from the concept, doesn't it? Thank you so much for sharing your story so personally. As I read through your posts I could actually feel your anxiety! (I can understand my husband a little better in that dept now.) I'm sorry that all of you had to deal with those horrible feelings. Praise God that he replaced them with his Peace. Love and Blessings today! Leigh Anne (Message edited by grace_alone on June 26, 2007) |
Reb Registered user Username: Reb
Post Number: 192 Registered: 5-2007
| Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 8:02 am: | |
Its interesting, my wife who is a 3rd generation SDA agrees with me on some points. And she even does things like watch TV on the Sabbath and drink very moderate amounts of alcohol on rare occasions. I think some of it with her is for the "culture". She has actually admitted to me that she agrees that EGW is wrong on some things and does not believe in the IJ or Sunday Laws(in fact she is quite vocal in her protests when someone brings the Sunday Law nonsense up). |
Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6142 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 2:28 pm: | |
Steve, I know what you're talking about. From this side of things, I agree completely with you. It describes my own experience. I was deceived, and the deep place in me where truth would transform was blocked away behind the armor of deception. Like Sara, I had NO CLUE that Jesus would be different outside Adventism. When I heard Christians talk, I felt annoyed with their "Jesus talk" and "born again" phrases. I felt I had better knowledge, deeper truth, more intellectually sound arguments. I felt sympathetic with them sometimes, but I also felt I was "more right". I had no idea I was feeling arrogance; only now do I realize I was deeply arrogant about my own grasp of spiritual reality. Yes, I had questions, but I knew that "mere Christians" couldn't answer them. They didn't have the most obvious truth of all—Sabbath—how could they answer anything else? Even though I rejected the fear of Catholicism, I still believed Christainity as a whole was wallowing in spiritual deception foisted onto it early by the Catholic church. So, Steve, you are completely right—and Sara, your experience is exactly what mine was. I really believe the "hope" for Adventists is that their cognitive dissonance will become so strong that they decide to ask the hard questions and actually PRAY to know what's true. As I look back, I realize that for at least three of four years I prayed regularly to be able to read the Bible and understand what it REALLY said before Jesus' finished work and Ellen's falseness converged in my mind, and I saw the truth with both fear and amazement. Praise God, He delivers us from fear! Colleen |
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