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| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3859 Registered: 3-2004  |
I found the url on 4 the Gospel. Thought all of your would be interested in it. Diana The Gift of Prophecy Revisited A Report from Sydney, Australia By Trevor Lloyd (June 21, 2007) On Sabbath, June 2, 2007, within several days of their return from the West Coast of the United States and Africa, respectively, Graeme Bradford and Arthur Patrick addressed the Sydney, Australia, Adventist Forum on the current struggle within the Seventh-day Adventist Church over the right understanding of the role and authority of prophets, both biblical and modern. Bradford, author of three books that are currently read widely, Prophets Are Human, People Are Human, and More than a Prophet, spoke of his direct contacts in the United States with former Adventists presently campaigning actively against the Church’s stance on the gift of prophecy and right-wing Adventists who continue to argue for the authority of Ellen White in areas such as geology, history, and theology. One former Adventist pastor told him that the present situation was a battle for the very soul of Adventism. He reported that there are still folk in North America who would fight to the death to defend an infallible Ellen White. Bradford also commented that if we don’t tell our people the truth about how Ellen White performed her ministry then our opponents will do so—and in a negative and destructive way—and this is already happening. For his part, Patrick, former director of the Ellen G. White/SDA Research Centre at Avondale College, described Ellen White’s work between 1844 and 1915 as moving the Church from great disappointment to great certainty—only to be faced with uncertainty in the 1970s with new questions being raised. Unlike the set of former questions, such as whether believers should allow cheese and milk in their diet, current issues involve how Ellen White related to her culture, what use she made of sources, and how her writings impinge on the findings of history and science. Patrick reported that the discovery and publication of the 1919 Bible Conference minutes in the 1970s revealed that these questions had been raised within several years of Ellen White’s death in 1915. He went on to comment that the way we deal with them now is directly relevant for the credibility (and hence the destiny) of Adventism in the Western world. Both speakers called for an open and frank approach that puts the whole matter out on the table and moves forward in the light of all the present evidence. Bradford spoke of pastors in United States who advised him that his books were urgently needed. One former pastor said that every thirty years someone tries to do what Bradford is attempting, but that no one has succeeded. One earnest layman confided that he could forgive his church many things—but that he wanted it to be honest with him and tell things the way they really are. Bradford expressed his concern for the worldwide church family—that thousands are walking away from both Adventism and Christianity and that they need to be given a frank indication of the true situation. He said that we need not be afraid to face the truth regarding Ellen White’s ministry because her role will meet every biblical expectation of a true prophet. The problem was with us as a church in that we have expected more from her than the Bible would intend. Bradford noted that his book, More than a Prophet, is available free on SDAnet.org, where readers’ comments may be entered as they wish. Patrick, who had been in attendance in Washington in 1982 when some seventy persons from various world divisions met in the wake of findings by Walter Rea and others, reported on the call at that time to make known to the wider Church the full implications of the data that had emerged in such matters as Ellen White’s use of sources and the authority of her writings in areas such as history, health, and science. He went on to explain that, on his return to Australia, one of his superiors in church administration instructed him to keep for his own records reports he had written of the workshop and not to share either the 941 pages of documents given to attendees or the sound recordings of workshop discussions. Bradford and Patrick have a conviction that the present struggles offer the Church yet another opportunity to clarify its position—to achieve what it failed to carry out after the 1919 and 1982 discussions. It can either accept, examine, and interpret the evidence that has come to light, or it can revert to its former blinkered stance. On a positive note, clear recognition was given at the Forum presentation to the encouragement, particularly since 1999, by South Pacific Division administrators for a climate of openness that has seen Bradford’s books go to press and extensive papers by Patrick presented at church conferences. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6123 Registered: 12-2003  |
Interesting report, Diana. The problem with Bradford's position is that he's not acknowledging that Ellen was a false prophet, that in these last days, God has spoken to us through His Son (Heb. 1:2), and there is no need for a "modern-day prophet" OR messenger. The message of salvation, of Jesus as our all-in-all, of His completed work—all that is given to us in the Bible. Anyone claiming to offer "present truth" besides that revealed in the Bible is false. Bradford is attempting to whitewash even further the truth about Ellen, finding reasons to keep people holding onto her. The Adventists who still try to remain faithful to the nuances of her writings are actually far more honest about her than are those who atempt to make her "relevant", explaining away her faults as if they are not significant and do not detract from her "message". I have read "Prophets are human" and have read parts of his larger book, "More than a Prophet". In them, Bradford downgrades the reliability of the Bible and its writers, attempting to show that there are discrepancies in it and that Bible writers were not held to the rigorous standards we attempt to make for Ellen. Bradford's works are along the liberal lines of considering Scripture NOT to be inerrant, and making it more of a moral guide than the absolute word of God. This view of Scripture helps him attempt to make Ellen "relevant" for today without people being concerned about her errors. While he sounds "progressive", he is finding ways to hold onto her as the essential anchor of the church's heritage. To borrow the idea from Ramone's excellent article in the last Proclamation, Bradford is showing Adventists how to keep holding onto "the family altar" of foundational Adventism even when its traditional teachings seem outdated. (I've heard lots of positive comments from people whom I see, Ramone, about your article!) Colleen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 177 Registered: 5-2007 |
Ummm that book, "Prophets are Human" is one an Adventist pastor is trying to get me to read, thinking I will change my mind about leaving Adventism. Sounds like it will only convince me more that Adventism is false! | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 55 Registered: 5-2007  |
********************************************************* Before I get to the point of this post, I would like to offer some praise to our Savior. Saturday while I was at work, my wife was rushed by ambulance to the emergency ward at one of our local hospitals. They admitted her over night for observation because they thought she might be having a heart attack. The results were amazing. Instead of what was suspected, she had muscle spasms due to a type of tendentious in her shoulder. She is home and in a few days she will be "good as new". While sitting in the hospital waiting room, I came across some Adventist material. Having been in a Marine recon unit in my somewhat younger days, I felt like I was on an intelligence mission and decided to "spy out the land". The magazine had an article that referred to the theme of "Prophets are Human". ********************************************************* Their logic is very impaired. What they seem to miss is that God's prophets are led and empowered by the Holy Spirit. God who does not lie. It is God's thoughts that are being recorded through the power and leading of the Holy Spirit. The many passages that teach us how to tell who is a true prophet of God make this very clear. Jer. 23:32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD. My escape from SDA theology included a two year study of the book of Romans where we examined the use of every single word used. Not just the sentences, verses or chapters. The impact on me was awesome. God cares about both the over all picture and the extreme details. God's cares enough to give us both foundational doctrine and practical illustration on how this applies to daily living. Our God is not a God of approximation. There is no way that God would allow the personality or frailties of one of his prophets to miss-state the meaning of his message. Phil | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 180 Registered: 5-2007 |
Phil, glad to hear your wife is ok. Great post with excellent points, Praise God! | ||
| Insearchof Registered user Username: Insearchof Post Number: 119 Registered: 8-2005 |
I found this on revivalsermons.org and it relates directly to what is going on in the Australian division. I pulled this from a post by Pastor o'Ffil. The thread was regarding EGW and if her writings were still necessary. Obviously, Pastor O'Ffil believes they are but I find that while he believe that, he is concerned as well for the critical spirit that many traditional Adventists have when they use her writings as a club for a particular point of view: "...The Australasian division, willingly or unwillingly is doing much to damage the ministry of Mrs White. Desmond Ford put himself up as the greatest of the prophets and then overthrew Mrs. White and replaced her with himself. Those who follow him are in error. I am grieved that the Division seems to be taking the bait." ISO | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 182 Registered: 5-2007 |
What?? Dr. Ford NEVER claimed to be a prophet, where did this guy get that??? This new book "Prophets are Only Human" will probably get it's authored "Forded" as well. The GC doesn't seem to have much tolerance for these Australian "rebels". I admire the courage of the Australian Adventists even though they don't go far enough and drop EGW altogether. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6131 Registered: 12-2003 |
Phil, praise God that your wife is OK! You make very cogent points. I loved these two sentences of yours: " Our God is not a God of approximation. There is no way that God would allow the personality or frailties of one of his prophets to miss-state the meaning of his message. " ISO--Des Ford "put himself up as the greatest of the prophets..."??? My goodness...sigh... Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3870 Registered: 3-2004 |
Sigh, Sigh, Sigh, What will they come up with next??? I never heard anyone call Des Ford a prophet. Phil, I am so glad you wife is ok. I hope you took that SDA literature home and put it in the trash. That is what I do when I find it in a doctor's office. I quietly stick it in my purse and take it home and shred it. That way, I have stopped a few souls from being influenced by the SDA. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 937 Registered: 9-2006  |
Phil, So glad your wife is o.k. River | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 623 Registered: 4-2006  |
"Their visions are false and their divinations a lie. They say, "The LORD declares," when the LORD has not sent them; yet they expect their words to be fulfilled. Have you not seen false visions and uttered lying divinations when you say, "The LORD declares," though I have not spoken? 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because of your false words and lying visions, I am against you, declares the Sovereign LORD. My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD." (Ezekiel 13:6-9). I would think EGW fits on the above. And here is a true prophet of God, Samuel: "Samuel lay down until morning and then opened the doors of the house of the LORD. He was afraid to tell Eli the vision, but Eli called him and said, "Samuel, my son." Samuel answered, "Here I am." "What was it he said to you?" Eli asked. "Do not hide it from me. May God deal with you, be it ever so severely, if you hide from me anything he told you." So Samuel told him everything, hiding nothing from him. Then Eli said, "He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." The LORD was with Samuel as he grew up, and he let none of his words fall to the ground. And all Israel from Dan to Beersheba recognized that Samuel was attested as a prophet of the LORD. The LORD continued to appear at Shiloh, and there he revealed himself to Samuel through his word." (1 Samuel 3:15-21). Jesus I love you! Martin | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6152 Registered: 12-2003 |
Interesting comparison of quotes, Martin. Thank you! Colleen | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 213 Registered: 1-2006  |
Colleen Even ONE false prophecy makes a false prophet! Deut 18 is very clear on this, and gives the real test of a prophet! I've never heard Deut 18 mentioned in 50 years of attending SDA churches! When I realized this, I had a decision to make. I guess we all do! So thankful for this forum. I've learned so much here. Bob |
