| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 91 Registered: 5-2007 |
I am confused about this one. I read about how to be lost, offense list that show what behaviours and people who practice them will not be in Heaven. Then I hear a sermon on TV, Baptist I think about the Once Saved theory. Essentially, You get saved, then sin is a matter of growth and discipline. In other words, God works with you , and His discipline as well as sowing what we reap have the effect of working these faults out of us over time. Yet, how do we mix the warnings of being lost if the Once Saved doctrine overrules? Can anyone , help me clear this up? | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 455 Registered: 10-2001  |
Jin, My thoughts: Colossians 1 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: We are born into sin, God says our righteousness is as filthy rags and He says He considers that we are dust. Only through Jesus death are we in any way holy, unblameable and unreprovable. If we have this knowledge we know that we can not rely on our works to make us any holier. No matter how hard we try, we are not going to be anymore acceptable in God's eyes, we must have the blood of Jesus covering us to be seen as the righteousness of God. That moment of "knowing" Jesus, when He found us and rescued us and became our Lord and Savior, began a new life, we were reborn, we aren't what we were. Still, we struggle, the Holy Spirit convicts us and we press on. Not because of our strength, but His because He promised to complete that work He started. 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; I do think you can leave, not continuing in the faith and we are chastised. Why would God bother chastising us if we are not His? In a blackslidden state I think we are out of God's will and therefore out of His blessing and protection to a degree. 1 Timothy 1 19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: That states it, a life of a believer apart from God is a mess! John 10 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. Philippians 1 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perform it until the day of Christ Jesus. Of the warnings, I'm supposing you are talking about liars and fornicators and etc...will not enter the kingdom of heaven. We goes on to say, of which some of you were. Were In Jesus we are the righteousness of God, we aren't seen by God by our sin nature, which dwells in our flesh. I personally don't think a person who has been reborn will want anything but to follow Jesus. There is so much controversy over this subject. Just abide in Jesus and He will abide in you and keep you, follow the Holy Spirit's leading and there is no worry of slipping and losing your salvation. I hope that helps. Sabra | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3825 Registered: 3-2004  |
I will try to explain this and when this made sense to me. I have an eating disorder and belong to a 12 step program. I also belong to the Celebrate Recovery program at my church which makes the 12 steps God centered. I do binge eating and over eat on sugar items. These things are not good for me and without God, I keep on eating, even knowing they are bad for me. So, with each of my meals, when I am shopping and see things that I want, but are not good for me, I talk to God. I say, God I cannot control this want/desire in me. I cannot fight it. So You take care of it, I cannot. When I do this with my eating disorder and other things in my life God does the fighting for me and the desire/want leaves. It is not taken away permanently, not yet. But one incident/one day at a time. I hope this helps you. It sure helped me. Diana | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 92 Registered: 5-2007 |
http://www.bibleprophesy.org/alwayssaved.htm This website presents the subject pretty well. It raises the very questions I am trying to resolve. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 93 Registered: 5-2007 |
Sabra, It appears to me that you can be lost after conversion from neglect and backsliding and refusal to repent. Diana, You present an important reality. Where the rubber hits the road, at the moment of need, God being with us. This is an example of relationship and living in His strength that Sabra refers to. Philippians 1 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perform it until the day of Christ Jesus. | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 456 Registered: 10-2001 |
Jom, You said, "Sabra, It appears to me that you can be lost after conversion from neglect and backsliding and refusal to repent." I see a lot of problems with that. First, it gives a false sense that there is something we can do to maintain our salvation, which brings us back to the works we were delivered from. Second, I don't see it in the bible, with examples from people in the bible. Peter denied Christ and he wasn't lost. David.......oh my, talk about backsliding, and he wasn't lost. Lot, what troubles he had, and God even spared him out of Sodom, recognizing that the sin in that city had tortured his soul day and night. Then, it just doesn't make sense, that a God who wills that everyone might be saved and went to such great lengths to save us, would send us to hell for not being what we can't be in the first place. I believe in "nothing but the blood of Jesus" and God doesn't grade on a sliding scale, it's either pass or fail. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 910 Registered: 9-2006  |
There are basically two lines of thought in the evangelical world. One is “It is impossible to lose ones salvation once saved” The other is “we are saved as long as we remain “in Christ”. Both take their line of thinking from the Bible. I call one “eternal security” and the other “Infernal insecurity”. Usually the first text the “infernal insecurity” type will quote is out of Hebrew 10 but they quit along about verse 38 , but conveniently never remember to finish up with verse Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Who’s we Paul? We is Christians. Then they will almost never fail to go to the great falling away chapter Thessalonians II 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; And tie this in, then they will go to Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. And say “see there, if we overcome sin, other wise we will be blotted out of the Lambs book of life.” To me they have proof texted themselves into “Infernal Insecurity”, Pentecostals are great at this, I oughta know Jim, I are one, I speak in tongues, believe there is a “Baptism in the Holy Ghost” a separate event from being saved, the whole bit, now watch out there you Lutran’s don,t go whacking me over the head with your Bible’s, some of them Bibles weigh ten pounds! Anyway Jim, this is a bone of contention that I have with them, I don’t particularly like it when they go scaring the troops and the troops go looking for a fox hole without ary a shot being fired. The “eternal security” folks, especially some Baptist will use their brand of proof texting and here, just to my way of thinking, is where they go wrong. They will get you to repeat a prayer, dunk you and say “ Now your forever saved” and what this does in my opinion is invite folk to come to believe they are forever saved when a great many times there has been no true repentance nor have they been born again in many cases, sure they got under conviction but just didn’t repent in the first place and that is, as for as I am concerned, dangerous and they go out thinking they are o.k. because the church keeps telling them “No, go on your fine” when in fact they might not be “Fine”. But I maintain that to the one who has been born again and knows it there is this scripture John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. These words are a comfort to me and many more like them, I am at peace, Thank you Jesus, I no longer have to fear for thou art with me and will be with me to the end. Thank you Lord. Amen to your post Sabra. River P.S. Jim, this probably didn’t help much, but when you posted this tread you hit on my favorite soap box and I just had to get oner. It probably helped me more that it did you. I hold the matter in tension. I’m with you on that last post too Sabra. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6104 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, there is a certain tension in this. It has made sense to me, however, since I've thought about the parable in Matthew 13 of the sower and the soils. The seed is always the same—it is the gospel of Jesus Christ. The soils vary: a hard path from which the birds eat the seeds without their ever germinating; rocky soil where the seeds germinate and grow apparenlty healthy-looking plants—until the heat's on. Then they wither and die because, under the surface, they never put down roots. Then there's the weedy soil where the good seed also germinates and grows plants. These, however, are choked to death by the weeds which are the cares of the world: worry and concern about riches. Then there's the good soil where the seed germinates, grows a plant, and puts roots down deeply. This plant bears great crop, "yielding a hundred, sixty, or thirty times what was sown." This parable illustrates the reality that some people DO hear the gospel and respond--they actually grow a "gospel plant". But, if they have a divided heart and allow the cares of the world to be more important than the gospel, the "gospel plant" will die. Or, they may just be shallow, thinking their superficial response to God qualifies them as Christians. But they have no roots. They wither and die when hard times come. The point is this: a mental assent to the gospl without a submission of one's heart to the Lord Jesus, giving Him all of ourselves for His purposes, does not equal saving faith. We cannot assume that all those who claim to be Christians really are. This is the point of the warnings in the NT—those who have given the Lord Jesus a half-hearted or shallow response are continually called to turn from their self-indulgence and allow the Holy Spirit to convict them and grow them in obedience to Him. Those who have truly been born again, who have submitted their hearts and lives to the Lord, KNOW they belong to Him because, as Romans 8:12-17 assures us, the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirits that we are God's children. When we have been been born from above, we are His. We must persevere, but only those who are truly born again will persevere over the long haul—because only the truly born again will have roots that go deep into the Lord and His word to withstand suffering, and only the born again will have the power of the Holy Spirit to give them undivided hearts. It is God who works in us to will and to work for His good pleasure (Phil 2:13). As our pastor Gary Inrig said in the leadership class Richard is attending, if there is any doubt about a person's salvation, we must not assume they are saved. We must, rather assume they are NOT saved. If we assume a person is saved when they are not, when their lives bear no good fruit, etc., then we fail to speak the truth of the gospel to them. We fail to call them from sin as the Bible instructs us to do. God knows His own...but we don't always know who His own are! We are obligated before God to respond to His Spirit, to submit ourselves to Him in repentance and surrender as He convicts us. Hard hearts keep us from being submitted to the Lord Jesus, and we don't put down roots. But we can be confident, as you and Diana point out. God, who began a good work in us, will be faithful to complete it. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3826 Registered: 3-2004 |
Jim, What I wrote does not mean I am perfect at it. I still eat things that are not good for. I do not do it every day, but that does not mean that God has left me out to hang all by my self. The Holy Spirit is still there, changing me and my wants/desires one at a time. God only goes as fast as He knows I can take or understand, but He never leaves me, even when I buy a big candy bar and eat it all at once, knowing it is not good for me. I just do this less and less. Last night at the grocery store I walked right by those things and as I was leaving, I said thank You God. I did not want to buy that stuff. So, the changes come, one incident at a time, one day at a time. Love my 12 step program and the one day at a time philosophy. It is really Biblical, but I did not learn it in the SDA schools/church. Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 911 Registered: 9-2006 |
Colleen, the parable of the seeds is a good one, it pretty much explains the Christian world as for as backsliding and such matters are concerned, it shows the importance of prayerfully reading Gods word and welcoming it into our hearts and like Dianna said we are not perfect but we keep reaching forward and the changes come over time. River | ||
| Nicole Registered user Username: Nicole Post Number: 67 Registered: 4-2006 |
colleen, your response to jim's question made a lot of sense. i have always had a hard time with that question becuase it is so personal and only that person (and God) really knows the answer. but you have put into words what i have felt. i feel my husband is not secure in his salvation simply because he never speaks of what Jesus did for him or his relationship with Him-ever. not that you have to go around always talking about it, but in a marriage relationship, it should eventually come up. he is extremely uncomfortable discussing God on that level. it is more about theology (and that is extrememly rare and only during an argument about his upbringing). but i also notice how he never seems to follow his conscience or feel remorse over little things that he may do. i certainly sin as well, but i am always guilt-ridden until i resolve and repent my wrong-doing. i have always felt that was the Holy Spirit alive in me pulling me to do what was right. sorry for the need to vent myself, but this was an interesting topic that i have always had a hard time putting into words. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 606 Registered: 6-2006  |
Nicole, I can relate! My husband is exactly the same way, although he will express his happiness about times we've prayed together in the past and God gave us such clear answers. My husband really seems to be on the fence. I always feel like I'm the one who initiates anything in the way of prayer, Bible study, church, etc. I often wonder if he ever prays on his own at all because he certainly never mentions it. I'm glad you vented! Glad to know I'm not alone here.  Leigh Anne | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 295 Registered: 11-2005 |
Sabra -- I am in awe of your explanation (for lack of better words). You stated it so well. "It just doesn't make sense, that a God who wills that everyone might be saved and went to such great lengths to save us, would send us to hell for not being what we can't be in the first place." What a powerful statement! It is people like each of you that make these forums such a thrilling community to be a part of. What a blessing. Thank you! Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 101 Registered: 5-2007 |
Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 12:36 pm: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sabra -- I am in awe of your explanation (for lack of better words). You stated it so well. "It just doesn't make sense, that a God who wills that everyone might be saved and went to such great lengths to save us, would send us to hell for not being what we can't be in the first place." Please explain examples of what we cannot be in teh first place. I am not sure I understand what you meant by this. I really want to know. This is important to me. Thank You, Jim | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6114 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, I'm not Sabra, and she'll likely come and explain herself later, but I think I understand what she was meaning. We are born spiritually dead, objects of wrath, incapable of any good work. Even our "good works" done in the natural, unregenerate self are as "filthy rags". They may have helpful effects materially, but they are no credit to us. They do not reflect righteousness or God-likeness or a "tendency toward" being good. They are simply of no spiritual value and flow from our natural self. We cannot be saved apart from God's own intervention in our lives. We cannot under any circumstances except the new birth be good people or accrue any spiritual merit to ourselves. We cannot please God (see Romans 8:5-8). God saved us because He knew we could never be "good" in any degree. When he makes us alive in Him, that new life is His "fix" for our incapability to be good. He will not remove His life from us when we have believed in Him. Our flesh will fail, but the life of God—the indwelling Holy Spirit—does not arrive and leave, willy-nilly, based on the whim of our frailty. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3833 Registered: 3-2004 |
The way I see this and for me it has to be simple. God will show me what needs to be changed. Then, when I own it as mine and recognixe it as not worthy of God, I ask God to change that desire/want/motive or what ever it is. Sometimes, like with my food, God exposes me to more food that is not good for me. That is when I say/pray, God I cannot do it. You fight it for me, because I cannot. That is when God takes whatever it is, until the next time. Over time my desire/want is less and less. I do not/cannot do a thing about it. It is all God. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Zjason Registered user Username: Zjason Post Number: 58 Registered: 11-2005 |
Quothe the mighty River: There are basically two lines of thought in the evangelical world. One is “It is impossible to lose ones salvation once saved” The other is “we are saved as long as we remain “in Christ”. Both take their line of thinking from the Bible. I call one “eternal security” and the other “Infernal insecurity”. -------------------------------------------------- I read this, and the words came to mind regarding Christ saying, "abide in me, and I will abide in you..." as he relates to the illustration of the vine. I heard this occasionally from people in church talking about staying in Christ. How would you answer this? | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 37 Registered: 4-2007 |
I really like River's "eternal security" and "infernal insecurity". Once again though, I'm taking a middle ground. Maybe some struggling with this issue can find some helpful middle ground of their own. I find support for both positions in the bible, and the way it works out in my own faith experience is this. I have security. I don't worry about being lost, nor do I feel I have to work for my salvation. Grace is a free gift. On the other hand, I'm a firm believer in free will. God does not save us against our will, we can remove ourselves from his friendship. And thats why I see it both ways. Nothing can snatch us out of God's hand, when He offers His grace its totally sufficient and can overcome anything. Except maybe our own choices. There is still security. Sins that would threaten my salvation are only serious sins, committed with full knowledge of the seriousness and consequences and without coercion or other problems that prevent an act of free will. I would have to choose to be lost (free will), its not something that can happen by mistake or that I have to worry about. Of course, If I am so foolish, I can repent (again, the result of God freely offering his Grace) and ask to be reconciled to Him. I personally don't have a problem with those who believe in eternal security though, because I can't see how someone who truly loves Jesus can have a casual attitude towards sin. The end result seems to be similar, it all seems to work itself out, regardless of how we define our beliefs, imho. As far as abiding in Christ, again, I see both arguments as having validity, that there is *nothing* we can do to deserve salvation, or to keep ourselves in grace. Yet if there is no fruit, there is no life, so I can see that there are 'works' that are necessary. Before I get flamed for that, again, it doesn't seem to be that serious of a difference when looked at from the results, not the process. No works is evidence of no saving faith or good works are the result of saving faith. Or - (my view) that the way we remain in Christ is to commit to living out the gospel in our life, something we won't want to do if we don't know Jesus, but something that is not in any way a burden if we know Him. MarysRoses | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 499 Registered: 11-2004 |
I believe you can have eternal security without believing in once saved always saved. Salvation is by grace through faith and not by works. My sins don't make me lost because I am in Him and have His perfection as my own. I do believe a person who is once saved can be lost but not by sinning. When we are in Christ we are secure. However, I do believe a person has free will to leave Christ and reject Him. The rejection is one where someone who once believed in Jesus as their Savior - no longer accepts Jesus or believes in Him. (i.e. Christian turned atheist) Salvation is by grace through faith so if someone no longer has faith in His sacrifice then I do believe that the person is lost. Just another perspective | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 919 Registered: 9-2006 |
And around and around we go, kids this argument for and against has been going on longer than any of us have been Christians. My theology instructor was of the eternal security type he gave the argument for both sides, and then he said he leaned that way, then he brought up the scripture about forgiveness where Jesus said that if we did not forgive men the heavenly father would not forgive us, he said that when he reads that he has to relent a bit on his eternal security theory. Just saying what he said. This is another one of those things I have to hold in tension, although I lean to the eternal security side. I thing both are dangerous teachings if taught in the wrong hands. Zjason, my Pastor one time brought a big long grapevine to church to illustrate the abiding in the vine. In context I am not sure this is referring to salvation, it has been a few years since I have really looked at the scripture, but I am going to take another look at it today. Myself I stand ready for change. River | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 43 Registered: 4-2007 |
River, I love your posts. I have been round and round and round again. And once in a while, Around the BEND! I am open to changing my ideas I think its healthy to not close my mind. I also think that resting with some of that 'tension' is good for me, as I've seen people wrestle things to the point of their own detriment. I think there is value in posting my views, even if they are a bit out of the main, as they are the result of *much* round and round over the years. It might help someone else reach a level of tension they can be at peace with. MarysRoses | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 104 Registered: 5-2007 |
The thief on the cross was reaping his reward for his crime. However, when he asked Christ to remember him, Christ did not reject him, but saved him on the spot with NO chance to live a sanctified life beyond that day on the cross beside Christ. When Mary Magdaline was dragged into the street a condemned woman, in the state of her sin, in the shame of her exposure, in the depth of her self condemnation and utter despair, Christ lifted her up, not condemned but forgiven. She had the opprotunity to live her life after that. But in both cases, no one could snatch them out of God's hand, and in both cases they accepted Christ as an act of faith. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 923 Registered: 9-2006 |
Marysroses, I for one value your posts, I too feel like my posts are out of the main many times, an outsider as it were. I am reminded of what the Lord said Matthew 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. I go along with the Lord Marysroses, you are of much value and not a little, therefore your post are of value. River | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 457 Registered: 10-2001 |
Jorgfe, Thank you. Jim, I'm not sure what you mean. I was just saying that we can't be perfect, we can't be good, the only good in us is Jesus. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 617 Registered: 6-2006 |
I read something once along the lines of - "I have nothing to offer towards my salvation except for the sins by which I'm redeemed". Jim, I can see what you mean - It was the act of accepting Christ and believing in him that gave him salvation, wasn't it? Nothing they could do on their own. It was Jesus! Leigh Anne Sabra, I'm loving your posts. You are on fire! | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 624 Registered: 4-2006  |
A good tract on the subject: http://www.thebereancall.org/files/Once%20Saved%20Always%20Saved.pdf In His strong hand, Martin |
