| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 66 Registered: 5-2007 |
What about abortion? I have always been 100% prolife. Women as pastors. I am unclear about this one. Gays, I have a family member who is. Now what? This forum has apparnetly an esdtablished response for most matters. Feedback appreciated. Thanks | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6081 Registered: 12-2003  |
Actually, Jim, this forum has no "established" response for issues. What we have, however, is our growing and changing understanding of God's word as we have allowed Him to lead us out of Adventism. I know that many of us here differ on many issues. What I hope most of hold in common, however, is the central love for and honoring of the Lord Jesus and an openness to growth and change in Him as He leads us. I'll give short answers from my own experience. I used to see abortion as a non-issue up to about the second trimester. I was always a bit uncomfortable with the fact that I couldn't clearly explain to myself why a fetus seemed more like a person and more of a moral issue than an embryo, but that's what I thought. I have turned 180 degrees from that position, however, since I have begun to understand that even the unborn humans have spirits which can know God. They are not merely tissue with the seeds of "potential" life such as an animal's fetus might contain. They have spirits which can know God—as did John the Baptist in the womb when he leapt for joy as the Holy Spirit came to him when Mary visited Elizabeth. This sort of thing doesn't happen to animals. This understanding has made me 100% pro-life. The evangelical world has disagreements about women pastors. This is not a subject I wish to divide over. I've read arguments on both sides of the issue, and I personally believe that the Biblical model is that church be led by men. But again, I will not assume women pastors to be acting in sin. I also see Biblical examples where God appointed women to leadership positions in the OT and to prophetic and teaching roles in the NT. I understand the exegetical arguments on both sides. I see the Bible modeling and requiring the general teaching pastorate to be male, but I will not say God cannot or does appoint women to these positions at times. I don't believe I can limit God's sovereign power to do things outside the usual according to His will. Nevertheless, I'm personally uncomfortable with the idea of women as teaching pastors for several reasons. Regarding homosexuality, the Bible is clear about it being sin. I do not believe it is a sin more serious than any other. It is not the unforgiveable sin any more than adultery, divorce, etc. People are born with temperamental predispositions to many sins, including alcoholism, rage, etc. These are ALL sins which God commands Christ-followers to surrender to Him. I see homosexuality the same way. God saves us IN our sins (see Ephesians 2:4-5) and then gives us His power to surrender and heal from our brokenness. He asks us to have integrity and to be truthful before Him regarding our sin as He reveals it and teaches us through His word. Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 72 Registered: 5-2007 |
God saves us IN our sins (see Ephesians 2:4-5) and then gives us His power to surrender and heal from our brokenness. He asks us to have integrity and to be truthful before Him regarding our sin as He reveals it and teaches us through His word. Interesting. You did not say "FROM". 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved Is this another ahah! moment ? I like the qualities in both Petecostal and Baptist. I like the Catholics too. That is part of the problem. I see good things in all of them. Frankly , I want to be part of all of them. Now hows that for divided loyalties? | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 73 Registered: 5-2007 |
I listen to the Gay mindset from the feedback I get from the relative I mentioned. After years of trying to be a Christian, ended up in a hospital with a breakdown, Finally , wlaked away from religon alltogether. Now considers it a colletion of magical stories. This attitude is what happens when people see no way out, no way to adapt, no way to correct. Bitterness sets in. Now he has a whole life built around the lifestyle, An otherwise great person to know. Typical is more loving and geniune than many so called normal folks. Thus, I respect his opinions but see no way to offer a resolution. It is a tough topic , but an excellent example of how people paint themselves into a corner , brick it up and build their lives on it to the point it is overwhelming to consider letting it all go to get right because they can not see a right as we describe it. He loves his partner of 30 years and how do I say , walk away. Not going to happen. Broken people sometimes are so broken they cannot achieve a level we call normal. I do not condemn him, I hope God does not. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 45 Registered: 5-2007  |
Concerning the subject of women preaching: Let me share my thoughts as opinion, not as doctrine, in as much as there are several very valid views on this subject. So, having said that, let me say I believe the problem arises because of a tradition that we have in typical modern churches. We assign the role of preaching to pastors and give the pastor another role. This being the position of CEO, the head boss, of a local church. So, if we return the role of CEO to the Holy Spirit and the roles of pastors and elders to that of sheparding the flock, then any woman who is under the headship of her father or husband can be a preacher if the Holy Spirit gives her the wisdom to do so. In my view, only when a woman steps outside the leadership of her father or husband, or if she has no father or husband, the leadership of the elders, then and only then is she outside the will of God. So, for me, the question is not whether women can preach but why do we put so much reliance on traditions of men? Phil (Message edited by philharris on June 18, 2007) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 888 Registered: 9-2006  |
I agree with you on that last line there for sure Phil, when we begin to put traditions of men ahead of the matter and begin to tell God who he can and cannot put in ministry we just may be in for a good lesson down the road from that very same Lord. River | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 890 Registered: 10-2002  |
Phil, all I can say is... AMEN!!! I completely redirect the "women" issue by asking simply why "pastor" is the dominant position in church? After all, the word is mentioned only *once* in the New Testament, and then at the tail end after apostles, prophets, evangelists and teachers. The former have all but disappeared or are kept in the "controversial" department. One reason is perhaps that the first two positions seem to require a bit more supernatural verification. Whereas the modern "pastor" need only complete Bible school and learn "homiletics". It is a much more manageable position -- manageable in the sense that it is easier to operate in the flesh when your duties are ceremonial and ironed out for you. Apostles are "sent ones" -- they must be sent by the Lord. Prophets are ones who speak the Lord's word -- they must hear from the Lord. It is harder--and more dangerous--to operate in the flesh in those positions. And it is more dangerous to operate in the flesh in those positions. But this is equally true for *all* church positions, pastor and teacher included! Yet it is not a given requirement to be Spirit-led or to be Spirit-confirmed "in your ministry". It should be an obvious, but the obvious truth is that the church is over-institutionalized. Part of the institution is simply the priesthood/clergy -- generally renamed "pastors". The position of "leadership" is not institutionally defined in the NT save for the position of "elder", from which women are barred. Whether that is because of culture or not is debated within many churches. However, even that debate is still made within the framework of institutionalism -- can women be the head of the institution/ritual tradition (service) or not? It's interesting to see that there was possbily a female *apostle* mentioned by Paul at the end of the book of Romans. There would apparently be nothing wrong with that -- or with God calling a woman to any of the other positions save for the aforementioned "elder" position. But anyway the greatest problem is that we focus on institutional labels instead of the accreditation of God -- we look by sight, by label, not by the Spirit and the Spirit's fruits. We look first at the outward appearance and human tradition's credentials before we are willing to listen to what the Spirit might be saying through someone. To a degree, positions of human authority must be honored. However, how much should the church continue mixing human tradition and boxing people inside of it using God's word to do so? Doesn't Paul (in Colossians) tell us not to keep people captive in human traditions? Haven't we been doing that to women? | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1111 Registered: 4-2000  |
Jim, Good point about being saved "from" our sins. "He will save His people from their sins" (Matt. 1:21 NASB). The Ephesians reference is to "when" He did it--not that He saves us "in" our sins. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 80 Registered: 5-2007 |
Dennis, This is all part of the sanctifacation study I need to review. When, If , From, Past , present, future. Our daily standing. On again off again. Saved not saved. Grafted in, grafted out. No more sacrifice remains if we "deliberately" continue in sin etc... It is not a childish question if what can we get away with. But how safe are we as we trip over our own feet. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6094 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, you're right, Dennis--I simply was emphasizing that God does wait for us to "clean up" our sins before He saves us. We would have no hope of being saved in that case (witness our SDA experience.) Yes, He saves us from our sins. He makes us alive while we are yet sinners, but he doesn't leave us there! Colleen | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 614 Registered: 4-2006  |
Dear Jim, A good website concerning the Women in Ministry issue is: http://www.strivetoenter.com/wim Also I can recommend the DVD teaching set called: Women in Ministry - Silenced or Set Free! Buy it from here: http://www.mmoutreach.org/wim.htm Its only $35 for the entire 4 DVD set covering 7 sections and 3.5 hours of teaching. I pray that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. Amen. In His strong hand, Martin |
