| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 61 Registered: 5-2007 |
Eternal can mean different things even in the same sentence. I cannot prove what the exact syntax intent is to a scriprture: The noun syntax has 3 senses (first 2 from tagged texts) 1. (2) syntax, sentence structure, phrase structure -- (the grammatical arrangement of words in sentences) 2. (1) syntax -- (a systematic orderly arrangement) 3. syntax -- (studies of the rules for forming admissible sentences) 1. (1) hermeneutics -- (the branch of theology that deals with principles of exegesis) The noun exegesis has 2 senses (no senses from tagged texts) 1. exegesis -- (an explanation or critical interpretation (especially of the Bible)) 2. exegesis -- (critical interpretation of a text (especially of the Bible)) ETERNAL : 3 senses of eternal Sense 1 ageless, eternal, everlasting, perpetual, unending, unceasing => permanent (vs. impermanent), lasting Sense 2 everlasting, eternal, lasting, eonian, aeonian => immortal (vs. mortal) Sense 3 endless, eternal, interminable => long (vs. short) Eternal can mean continuing, and it can mean permanent. What is not established in a sentence and this is the debate. Eternal could mean the condition of the destruction is permanent , or it can mean the process of suffering or punishment is continual. In the Book of Revelation it says: 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." I consider the existence of hell, or the lake of fire to continue to exist forever to be a contradiction to the above passage as well as the following passage. Rev20: 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Why is all thi sso important? Because it reflects my concept of God's Love. Because it is how I understand what God's love is, what it represents, what it means. I am not judging God. But as God reveals Himself in scripture, I see all the facets proposed and try to embrace them as a whole How can there be this blot in the universe, this ongoing hell or torment and still call it a new order. If you can "live" in torment forever in Hell , are you not in fact imortal anyway? Another contradiction ! A quoted reference that caught my attention from a previus thread: Acts 28:26 " 'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." Do you think I want this to be the reality in my situation? I assure the reader, absolutely not. But ask yourself , why does this happen to people? In my case it is because I can easily find arguments that support both sides to many debates. Job 12:12 Is not wisdom found among the aged? Does not long life bring understanding? Acts 19:32 The assembly was in confusion: Some were shouting one thing, some another. Most of the people did not even know why they were there. If you look all through the Bible there are examples of people being confused, unsure and in doubt. It is not about trying to get away from anything, nor is ita question of trying to place God in a neat place on a shelf, a formula relationship so to speak. It is about knowing that after 30 years plus of apparently being wrong about things, I am sorely pressed to not continue in even more errors. I feel that NOT EVERYTHING in my life was an illusion, not everything was a lie, not everything was it's own deception. Because if that is the case, then how can I trust my senses now? How can I know anything at all? God has cared for all these years. His mercy and providence has been present. I can accept he is leading me into new horizons. But I must have a foundation to build upon. That is why it is so important. If I have no basis , no absolutes, no anchors, then any wind of doctrine will smash me relentlessly against the rocks. Understandings and God's percieved will has to count for something. I am grasping lots of things, here and there. The question of Hell reveals who God is to me. Either way, certainly , Hell is a place to shun. But perfect love casts out all fear. I never wanted to grow on the basis of a firescape religon. God is bigger than that to me. God's perfect love could not allow unending torture to exist in the universe. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 871 Registered: 9-2006  |
Quote: The question of Hell reveals who God is to me. Well, for one thing you are looking at the wrong thing in order for it to reveal who God is. If you look to the cross it will reveal who he is. He announced himself in the four gospels and ask the question "Who do you say that I am?" Who God is is not based on who you or I think he should be nor is it based on the eternal Hell or lack thereof. I see where you are coming from but it is just the place to be seems to me like. would knowing that there is a place of eternal punishment for those who do not recognize his only son establish that God is a God of hate? Or that he is guilty of something? It just seems to me that you are going about this the wrong way and I don't say this in rebuke or unkindness Jim. River | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 64 Registered: 5-2007 |
If Christ paid in full all debt for ALL sins for ALL mankind , for all ages. Then I accept that He has CONCLUDED payment and penalty for sin. The wages of sin is death. Christ Died as a perfect and infinite sacrifice and he said it is finished upon the cross. He paid the debt. Thus , the penalty had a final fullfillment in Christ. It is a satisfied debt. The idea of an eternal hell suggests that the debt to sin is infinite. Christ paid the debt in full. It had an end. At the end of Revealtion it speaks of the old order of things has passed away and all things will be new. I am not entrenching on this subject. I am simply saying. The pattern does not fit. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3771 Registered: 3-2004  |
Jim, Read the gospel of John, then the other gospels. Then read them over again. These will really teach you who Jesus is. As for hell, well, I will leave that to God. He is just and fair and I will trust His judgement. I am not God and cannot get into His head and think and see things the way He does. I cannot do that for any human. So, as I said, I will leave that to God. Hell is not a salvation issue. Belief in Jesus Christ is what we need for salvation, so the non salvation issues, I will read about but so far have formed no opinion. What I have discovered, since leaving the SDA fold is that the important things, like salvation are easy to understand, even for a child. The issues that have nothing to do with salvation, are interesting, but I do not try to understand them at this time. If God wants me to understand them He will show me. Jim, I say all this in kindness and love for a Christian brother who wants to know Jesus. Get to know Him. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 31 Registered: 4-2007 |
It occurs to me that if we had to 100% interpret the bible accurately, and understand all the finer points of theology in order to be saved, we'd all be 100% spiritual toast. I can give an answer for my faith and know that I have invested time and effort into doing the best I can as far as understanding the Bible and the teachings of my church. Can God ask us for more? Not everyone has the same faculties intellectually or academic resources to consult. We have what He has given us, and He hasn't given us all the same. I'm no better than anyone else on this forum, and worse off than many. Is it just me or does it seem sometimes, especially with Adventists and similar groups, that somehow being 'right' equals being 'saved'? That sometimes we take that with us, a big fat trunk of rocks on top of all the other baggage I like to refer too? Delight in knowing Jesus seems to trump all doctrinal angst for me ... I will follow where he leads me. MarysRoses | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6062 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, I agree with River. God reveals Himself through the cross and through His consistency in His Word. You do have a firm foundation: God is not a construct derived from the Bible. God is an eternal Being who created all things, including you, and who is absolutely changeless. He is the One you can trust, and you can trust that He reveals truth in the Bible. Certainly not all of your past was an illusion. But your paradigm was not Biblical. That is the problem all of us here have faced and are facing. As we learn to trust Jesus, He changes our world view slowly, and you don't need to fear. Don't wrestle with doctrines as philosophies. Instead, read books of the Bible, one chapter at a time, until you've read the whole book. It's in reading the Bible in context, examining words and phrases, that I have begun to learn how much I can trust God. My suggestion to you is to pick a book such as Ephesians (it's short and SO rich!), and begin copying it, one verse at a time, in a journal. Ask God to teach you the truth as you do this. You don't need to go into this looking for doctrine. Just go into this asking Jesus to reveal Himself to you and to teach you truth. I know that over time you will find yourself seeing God, yourself, in fact, all reality through new lenses. To be sure, there is a place for studying doctrines, but what I'm finding (still finding, in fact) is that the more I study passages verse by verse, book by book, the more the "Big Picture" makes sense, and it's all cohesive and consistent. God is so MUCH BIGGER and more personal than I ever imagined! I'm finding that, as I study books closely, verse by verse, every verse yields insight, even the greetings and conclusions. Just as an example, the very first verse of 1 Timothy says, "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus who is our hope..." Wow--in that verse alone Paul identifies the Father as "our Savior". Now, we know Jesus is our Savior--but that's not distinguishable from the Father also being our Savior. And Christ Jesus is our HOPE...that's a HUGE statement. Without Christ Jesus we have no hope. Our entire future, our reality, our identity depends upon Jesus. And this insight relates to your question about Jesus paying for sins. If we are not in Jesus, His payment for sin cannot be accrued to our account. Only IN CHRIST are we credited with Jesus' having become sin and having paid its price. Apart from Him...we have no hope. So, Jim, all this is to say, spend time savoring a NT book verse by verse. I suggest writing it out because you will have to deal more particularly with every word if you actually write it. If you do this in a journal or notebook, you can also write your thoughts, ponderings, etc. there. And pray that God will teach you with His Spirit and reveal Himself to you in new and deeper ways. He will do it, Jim. The Big Picture will fall into place as you get to know God—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Bible is ours as His appointed means of revealing His mysteries to us. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1877 Registered: 10-2004  |
Jim, The Greek word used for "eternal" in Matthew 25:46 (for "eternal life" and also for "eternal punishment") is aionios, which Strong's defines as: "perpetual." The life is perpetual, continual, unending. And the punishment is also perpetual, continual, unending. You quoted Revelation 21:4. But we must read that verse in context:
So, in context we see that verse 4 only applies to the saved, but for the unsaved, verse 8 tells us that their part will be in the lake of fire. For them, there will continue to be death, crying, pain, etc. Also, you quoted Revelation 20:14 which says, as does 21:8 also, that the lake of fire is the second death. Those verses actually helped me to give up my SDA understanding. Those verses say that the Lake of Fire is the second death. So annihilation is not the second death--the Lake of Fire is. And in verse 10 of chapter 20, it says that those who are thrown into the Lake of Fire are "tormented day and night forever and ever." Regarding Jesus' sacrifice. Jesus is the infinite God, and His sacrifice for our sins was infinite. Jesus is infinite, and therefore He was able to suffer infinitely and offer an infinite sacrifice to pay for our sins. This is something that a finite creature could not do--which is why the One who died for us had to be the infinite Creator--God Himself! The unsaved are not infinite and thus cannot pay for their sins against an infinite God--that is why they have to keep being punished forever, because they can't satisfy the penalty. If the unsaved are able to pay their penalty by suffering for a limited duration, then why can't they be taken into heaven after paying it (universalism), instead of being annihilated? But Jesus says that they are guilty of an "eternal sin" (Mark 3:29). Because Jesus is God, His death was of infinite value--that is why GOD HIMSELF had to die for us. The life of anyone else would not be of infinite value. And since our sin against an infinite God is "eternal" (Mark 3:29) and is deserving of "eternal punishment" (Matthew 25:46), it was necessary, in order for us to be saved, for the infinite God Himself to offer an infinite sacrifice for our sins. And He did! Praise the Lord Jesus! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on June 16, 2007) |
