| Author |
Message |
Bobj
Registered user
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 198
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 3:27 pm: |     |
Marysroses
In March of this year I met an older gent who mentioned that he had formerly been a Bible teacher at an Adventist academy. Assuming that I was an Adventist, he gave a beautiful testimony of how he had left Adventism because he felt it was incompatible with a life of faith. He also mentioned that he had worked for an RCC hospital near San Diego, and how favorably he had been impressed with their love and tender care for “our dear brothers and sisters” who are hurting so much in this life.
I told him that although I have profound theological differences with Catholics, the Holy Spirit used the writings of a Catholic author to finally reach my heart, to begin the process of lifting the veil for me, a hard-core and hard-hearted SDA. It was love and compassion that did it. Not theology.
We will soon be with the Lord. Theological questions will vanish. I praise God for your testimony and for your walk with the Lord.
Bob |
Bobj
Registered user
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 199
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 3:40 pm: | |
Marysroses
Just a note on something I learned recently. Scholars think that at the height of Athens' prosperity only between 10 and 15 percent of the population was literate.
In the early centuries AD, the letters/scriptures were read aloud. If you you were illiterate but "listened" as the scriptures were being read, you were said to have "read" the scriptures.
I loved your posts!!
Bob
(Message edited by bobj on June 09, 2007) |
Marysroses
Registered user
Username: Marysroses
Post Number: 22
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 11:51 pm: | |
I don't have time for a lengthy post, and my internet will be down for a few days until our new cable service is installed, but I wanted to thank everyone for the very kind replies, its not easy for me to be so personal.
God bless!
MarysRoses |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 582
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 6:08 am: | |
Mary, we're family here. ((HUG))
 Leigh Anne |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6022
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 12:30 pm: | |
Chris, your post is very impacting to me. And MarysRoses, I'm glad you posted your own experience here. Thank you for risking being vulnerable.
MarysRoses, I am not trying to argue with your experience when I make some general observations. My understanding of Catholicism is that I totally agree with Martin Luther that the gospel has been obscured and people have been put under bondage to works and an extra-biblical authority in the Catholic church. Those things have had a devastating effect on millions of people, and I believe numberless persons have been prevented from being saved in Jesus individually because of the doctrines that bound them. I still believe that the Christian church cannot embrace Catholicism in an ecumenical way as some evangelicals have been advocating. The Reformation happened for reasons which are still valid.
At the same time, my coming to understand that Protestantism and Catholicism and the Orthodox church share the root of the apostolic church while Adventism sprang from an Arian root has helped me understand a great many things that previously confused me.
As the Reformation demonstrated, the church which grows from the root of the apostolic church can be reformed. When spurious doctrines become attached to the true church, people like Luther and Calvin have come along and, in spite of opposition and trauma, have brought the gospel back into view and have restored the true gospel to the church.
A group which does not spring from the apostolic root, however, cannot be "reformed". A leopard with spots, for example, cannot be reformed into a tiger with stripes by someone connecting the dots with a paintbrush. The Mormon church, for further example, cannot be reformed into a true Christian church by adding on orthodox-sounding words while retaining the original teachings and prophetic authority.
Adventism did not spring from the apostolic Christian church. It grew up from Arian founders who rejected all Christian traditional teaching, reforming their beliefs based on their personal, Arian interpretation of Scripture. Adventism does not share the root of the apostolic church which the Protestant and Catholic and Orthodox churches share.
The root determines the substance of the tree. The look-alike leaves do not determine a tree's genetic integrity. In order to know if similar branches and leaves are, in fact, related, one must trace them backwards to the root. If they share a root, they have fundamentals in common and can, if people are willing, reject the false accretions which have attached to the core over the years and find the bottom-line truths still there.
If the root is different, however, one cannot arrive at shared foundational, Biblical truth.
Like Chris, I know I'll likely be misunderstood...but Adventism really is not what we were taught it was. We were taught it is a Reformation church continuing the reforms begun by Martin Luther.
This claim is simply false.
Colleen |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1861
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 3:27 pm: | |
Chris and Colleen, good posts. The one thing I would say, though, Chris, is that I believe that in order for a Roman Catholic (or anyone) to be saved, they must believe in the true Gospel. You wrote:
quote:Do I believe that at certain points Roman Catholicism contradicts the essentials of biblically based Christian faith? My answer must be, “Yes” (especially pertaining to salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone).
So, if it is an "essential," can someone be saved without it?
Jeremy |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1314
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 4:54 pm: | |
Jeremy,
I've stated this many many times in the past, but one more time won't hurt I guess. There is an important difference between judging a system of belief vs. an individual that is a part of an organization that embraces the system. Please note what I said lower down in my post:
quote:For this reason, I now embrace many individual Roman Catholics as brothers and sisters in Christ.
Can you be saved in any other way other than by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone. No, absolutely not. So if any individual is dependeing on anything else to save them they are embracing a false system and a false salvation. That not withstanding, I do believe that there are individuals within the two main trunks of historic Christianity (Roman Catholocism and Eastern Orthodoxy) who still understand the roots of where their branches came from and who embrace those roots.
I cannot embrace Roman Catholocism as a system nor can I assume that most within that system are truly saved. However, I do believe that there are probably more born again Christians within Catholocism than some of us were once led to believe. I am quite a bit more reluctant to extend this same charitable assessment to those within illegitimate up-shoots which corrupt the very nature of God and which were never joined to the root to begin with.
Chris
(Message edited by Chris on June 10, 2007)
(Message edited by Chris on June 10, 2007) |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1862
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 5:05 pm: | |
I agree with you totally, Chris. Thanks for clarifying.
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on June 10, 2007) |
Nicole
Registered user
Username: Nicole
Post Number: 65
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 6:08 am: | |
i have always had respect for the purpose of this forum and have kept my own theology out of it since that is not why i came here. but this thread seemed appropriate for me to share.
first, i am grateful to all of you on this forum for your insight on adventism. being former adventists yourselves, you truly know the mind, the thought process, and the faith and theology of adventists. know matter how much i am around sda and what i may think they believe, i am not, nor have ever been one. i sought out information about adventism because of my love for my husband, who although no longer practices, was raised in a very devout family. i had no idea how much adventism shaped his way of thinking in a lot of areas of life and continues to do so even though he is not even aware of it. His personal relationship with Christ is a mystery to me, he is very uncomfortable talking about spirituality on that level. from being on this forum, now that makes more sense. in a lot of ways you have described his family and upbringing exactly.
but as a person born into, raised, and a practicing catholic to this day, i can tell you from my experience on the inside, that i personally don't know many catholics who do not have a personal relationship with Christ. almost all accept the sacrifice He gave them and understand that that alone is what gives them the security of their salvation. i have always been taught that when you are a christian it will be evident to those around you. not that you have to be perfect or are trying to "work your way to heaven", but because when the Holy Spirit dwells within you, you are always moved to do what is right. that is why our conscience lets us know when we have sinned. we as christians have a hard time unless we try to right a wrong, confess our sin, or change our ways. this happens continuosly. and it is because of God living within us. i always pray that others will see Christ through me whether at home, at work or at play, so that they will be drawn to a personal relationship with Him themselves. i hve always known that i, nicole, belonged to Him. i had comfort in that, knowing God was literally with me every moment of the day. i have a large immediate family, and we all share the same spiritual beliefs. this is the same spirituality i was taught at mass and in catholic school. i know there are catholics who go through the motions yet never have a personal relationship with Christ. that is sad and i feel bad for them. but that has not been my experience as someone raised catholic.
most of my extended family is protestant (with one JW and even a mormon). i have never had a problem sitting down and discussing or worshiping Christ with my non-catholic relatives (with the exception of the JW and mormon). our core beliefs seemed to be the same, and we were able to learn from one another and feel at ease with each others beliefs. I have certainly learned some things from them as i have from you, and i know that is God working through them. i believe they have learned some aspects of a living faith through me as well. but as a catholic i would have to disagree with some of you. most catholics have a personal, living relationship with Christ. i am just sharing my personal experience as you have shared yous with me, and i certainly respect your views and opinions. i feel that God is guiding this forum and working through many of you here. |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 49
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 10:52 am: | |
I was a Catholic as a child till age 18.
My Fathers side of the family are all Catholics, my wife and her family is Catholic.
I NEVER argue about religon, and absoultely never challenge my wife's Catholic faith. I go out of my way to ask her about her church friends, how was Mass?, what's going on? and she brings home the bulletins for me to read.
It is important to me that she knows that I respect her own walk and her beliefs.
If God wants either of us to do something different, to have a new knowledge, I believe God will lead and direct.
I don't want to get in God's way.
I am in agreement with this: We have commonality in Christ. "Many sheep I have not of this fold."
I believe every Christian has equal standing in Christ. Religons are systems. Salvation stands alone and apart. Religon is organization of teachings, thoughts , practices, traditions. It is a support system of spiritual fellowship.
I think all Christian religons have their faults. Some worse than others.
Catholics are good people and they are in fact very much Christian. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6033
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 1:39 pm: | |
As Chris said earlier, God saves individuals quite apart from whatever system they are in.
For quite some time I have compared and contrasted Adventism with Catholicism in my head in various ways. What I have come to see within the past six months, however, is that I was comparing "apples and oranges", so to speak. In spite of doctrines I personally do not endorse, Catholicism does carry the orthodox understanding of who Jesus is, of the Trinity, of honor for the apostolic foundation of the church, and of the Scriptures. Even though I do not agree with the ways some of these foundational beliefs have come to be understood and interpreted through the centuries, I have come to see that I cannot simply dismiss Catholicism in the way I used to.
Because they actually do teach the truth about the identity of God and have a true respect for God's wrath and judgment, I believe it is possible for individual Catholics to have relationships with Jesus that transform their lives in Biblical ways.
I do not want to try to dissect what I consider to be the merits and demerits of Catholicism, because I believe it has both. But I do have to acknowledge that it originally sprang from the true apostolic church. In this respect it is very different from Adventism—which did not spring from the apostolic church, nor does it hold foundational orthodox beliefs.
IOW, Adventism cannot be reformed. For Adventism to become truly Christian, it would have to renounce its foundation. Once it did that...there would be no need for the church to continue as a discreet entity. Its members would be best served by integrating into the Christian community and learning the Bible from people who are alive in Christ Jesus and can teach the Bible without "Ellen filters".
The Worldwide Church of God did do just such a renouncing of its foundation in 1994. Interestingly, however, those that remained members of the newly-defined church still have a few aberrant doctrines. I believe their experience demonstrates that people who have been shaped by a group founded in unorthodoxy need to become integrated into true Christian communities.
As Chris said earlier, because of the differences in their foundations, Protestantism has less in common with Adventism than it has in common with Catholicism. Again, please don't hear me pronouncing either approval or disapproval on Catholicism. I am merely making a statement about ADVENTISM.
And I am also acknowledging that God is at work in individuals' lives, both in Catholicism and in Adventism. He is bigger than our "isms", for sure!!
Colleen |
Marysroses
Registered user
Username: Marysroses
Post Number: 23
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 7:04 pm: | |
Hi,
Got internet at home back today. I've been checking in from work but can't post from there.
Thanks for all the thoughtful posts. I have made a resolution to try to share and explain more next time I'm asked questions.
I agree totally that God is much bigger than our 'isms'. In my job as director of a small non-profit food program, I depend on groups of volunteers from about 20 local churches of all denominations to carry out the daily task of feeding homebound seniors in my community. I see awesome Christians of all kinds working together.
(interestingly, and I'm guessing this is common, the SDA, Mormon and JW groups in town do not participate.)
My SDA mom, to her credit, does help out a lot, and she did take the question of volunteering as a group to her congregation, and the invitation was declined.
MarysRoses |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 138
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 6:32 am: | |
I have found that Catholics are way more tolerant of Adventists than Adventists are of Catholics and in fact the Catholic bashing in the Adventist Church was one of the things that started my questioning of it and journey out of Adventism.
I myslef could not be a Catholic but I know many wonderful people who are Catholic and good Christians. We believe in the same Jesus which Adventists seem not to.
For me, it's all about Jesus and a Roman Catholic who has Jesus Christ as there saviour is just as saved as any other Christian.
In fact my son wants to convert to the RCC and I told him, dude as long as you still believe in Jesus, it's cool.(Of course my wife will have a major cow with this).
I know a guy at the SDB church I attend who's wife happens to be Roman Catholic. He attends SDB church on Saturday and goes to Mass with his wife on Sunday and even plays guitar in a praise band at his wife's church. You'd never see this kind of tolerance from most Adventists!
(Message edited by Reb on June 16, 2007) |
Larry
Registered user
Username: Larry
Post Number: 21
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 9:24 am: | |
Colleen, I always say that the Catholic church was not founded on lies or corruption. The Mormons and SDA's, however, were founded on lies. God was NOT in the 1843 thing. He said no man knows when I am coming. Wm. Miller said "wrong, we know 15 different ways exactly when you are coming". 1843 was a total flop (wrong event and wrong time). 1844 was claimed by those who would be SDA's to be the "right time, but wrong event". How convenient to call God a full-on liar one time, then accuse him of only giving half-truths the other time!
The short of it is that they were founded on lies and error, they embraced corruption from the very start. Catholics did not start this way, but corruption crept in over the centuries, and I agree with you that Luther did some branch pruning to that tree with correct roots.
The SDA's are in no sense related to Luther, as they claim. That is just another one of their lies, in their attempt to claim mainstreamed-ness
I like how Colleen puts it, much more refined than how I put it! I think the term "christian connexion" further explains how sda-ism came about.
I would be curious to see where adventism leads in a couple hundred years! |
Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 608
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 10:34 am: | |
If you are a Roman Catholic, then you might find the following interesting: http://www.whateverycatholicshouldknow.com/
Also this picture is quite revealing:
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/popekiss.html
Kissing the Koran must be okay, since the Pope is infallible?
http://www.whateverycatholicshouldknow.com/wecsk/pope_infallibility.htm
May God Almighty, Jesus Christ lead you,
In His joy Martin. |
Larry
Registered user
Username: Larry
Post Number: 22
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 12:03 pm: | |
Hi Martin,
Keep in mind that the catholic church was NOT founded on deception. While the links you post tell us of possible corruption that has crept in, they were not founded on this. I think it is the roots of the movement that are THE MOST important. Can we all agree that Satan was not the originator of the catholic church, unlike the SDA organization?
Martin, can you tell me exactly what the earliest catholics taught and believed? |
Marysroses
Registered user
Username: Marysroses
Post Number: 28
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 3:07 pm: | |
Without getting drawn further into this debate, I'd just like to make the following observation.
The Koran kissing incident happened in 1999. The pope was meeting with Patriarch Raphael Bidawid, head of the Chaldean Catholic Church in Iraq. The Chaldean Christians have maintained their faith under Islamic rule through centuries of persecution. The Chaldeans are an ancient apostolic church who remain in union with the Roman Pontiff. Due to the circumstances in the patriarch's country; restrictions on freedom of travel and of religion, representatives from the Iraqi government and an Imam accompanied the Patriarch to the meeting. The Koran was presented to the Pope as a gift from the Iraqi people. The presentation was being filmed for Iraqi television. Pope John Paul accepted the gift and made a gesture of respect, and continued the meeting. The even was shown on Iraqi television, engendering goodwill on the part of Iraqi citizens towards the Chaldean Christians living there.
Before you judge this action, you have to realize, that in holding that book, he held the lives of thousands of Christians literally in his hands. Any sign of disrespect could easily be a spark that would cause outbreaks of violence. There are few protections for Christians in Moslem countries. Women and children are stoned, men beheaded and churches burned with little provocation and few consequences.
An LDS friend brought me a copy of the Book of Mormon from temple square when she returned from a visit. I have no intention of becoming Mormon or giving that book a place of honor in my library, but I politely accepted it and still have it, somewhere. Should I have refused it and caused a rift in our friendship? Since I'm her only non LDS friend, I hate to push her away, maybe I can plant seeds that will bring her out of it someday.
Would it have been better for the pope to refuse the book and possibly cause innocents to be slaughtered? Its easy to say yes when its not your decision. If it was a mistake, which is also a possibility, Popes are human too, and do make mistakes. Infallibility is something that relates to defining doctrines, and then, only when it is intentionally invoked with the consensus of all the bishops. (this happens very rarely, only twice in the last 150 years).
MarysRoses |
Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 610
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 8:21 am: | |
Dear MarysRoses,
That is the teaching that "the goal sanctify the means", and it is untrue. As Christians we should never bow to other Gods, like Allah for example.
Should the Israelites have bowed and kissed other Gods? What exactly is God, the almighty teaching us in His mighty Word?
"Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces." Exodus 23:24
Check out this picture as well, to see how Islam and Roman Catholicism goes hand in hand:
http://www.templemountfaithful.org/Pope&Arafat.jpg
At the Vatican, on 15 February 2000, the Pope and the leader of the PLO terrorist organization, Yasser Arafat, signed a covenant against the G-d and people of Israel and Jerusalem. It was a covenant between two enemies of Israel who have wanted for a long time for Israel to disappear from the Promised Land.
What was the last infallible doctrine made by the Pope? The Assumption of Mary was officially declared to be a dogma of the Roman Catholic faith in 1950. This means that every Roman Catholic is required to believe this doctrine without questioning it. The biblical fact that Christ Jesus was taken up into heaven as King of Kings is matched in the Catechism of the Catholic Church by the claim that Mary has been assumed into heaven and is now the Queen over all things.
#966 “Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things…”
Is that a true doctrine? Was mary preserved free from all stain of original sin?
Isaiah 45:22 In heaven the Lord God alone is glorified. Look to Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
Luke 1:46-49 And Mary said:"My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me—holy is his name.
If Mary was without sin she would not need a Savior.
But please do study http://www.whateverycatholicshouldknow.com/
And search the scriptures, to see if you can still be a member of a organization which has doctrines like that.
In His amazing grace,
Martin |
Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 611
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 8:46 am: | |
Just a list of infallible doctrines:
I noticed that the 1950 infallible doctrine is not the latest, it has been toppled by one, maybe even worse.
1965: Declaration of non-Christian religions
The Church (RCC) regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself, merciful and all-powerful,
the Creator of heaven and earth ... Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin
mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. ... Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting. Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities
have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this Sacred Synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.
Muslims worshiping the same God as the Christians? They worship a moon god, and follow a false prophet Mohamed and they have a false Christ and a false Gospel. Their holy book urges the followers of Islam to kill Jews and Christians and all other who are non Muslims.
1950: Assumption of Mary and Queen of Heaven
The biblical fact that Christ Jesus was taken up into heaven as King of Kings is matched in the Catechism of the Catholic Church by the claim that Mary has been assumed into heaven and is now the Queen over all things.
1870: Papal Infallibility
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the Pope is incapable of saying anything wrong regarding his teaching on faith and morals. The Bible, on the other hand, says that only God is without error. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Roman Pontiff, by virtue of his office, has infallibility as he speaks on doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. Biblically, infallibility is an attribute solely belonging to God alone and not that of any man or group of men. Eternity, omniscience, and infallibility are among God’s incommunicable natural attributes, properties of His Being that cannot be passed or delegated to creatures. All creatures err in fact, so that Bible solemnly declares, “There is none righteous, no, not one” Romans 3:10.
1854: Immaculate Conception
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was “full of grace” and sinless from the moment of her conception and thus the it teaches the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. This is a very serious charge for according to the Bible, there was only one “Immaculate Conception” and that was of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
1274: Purgatory
Jesus willingly died for the believer’s sins; He died in our place to pay the debt that we could never pay. “Who his own self bare the believer’s sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed” (I Peter 2:24). How devastating it is that Catholics trust in a place not mentioned in Scripture, but which they call Purgatory. They are taught to trust that somehow they can through suffering be purified enough to achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven.
1215: Transubstantiation
According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the actual body (flesh), blood, and divinity of Jesus Christ is called down from heaven and miraculously transubstantiated into the Eucharistic wafers. The Holy Bible, however, is explicit concerning the return of Jesus Christ to this world.
Jesus you are so awesome!
Martin
(Message edited by mwh on June 17, 2007)
(Message edited by mwh on June 17, 2007) |
Marysroses
Registered user
Username: Marysroses
Post Number: 32
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 9:20 am: | |
In charity and love we can agree to disagree.
I know Jesus, I can agree with you that He is awesome. I also know I am where He wants me to be.
I won't be posting further to this thread,
Peace.
MarysRoses
(Message edited by marysroses on June 17, 2007) |
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