| Author |
Message |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 834
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 9:07 pm: |     |
Brian, you haven't alienated anybody far as I know and especially me, and I certainly don't want to alienate you.
It's just that about everybody has sore spots and we do get to sounding skittish but honest with each other but these little snits that occur back and forth challenges us and it stretches our faith and we learn from one another I believe a lot faster that we ever could going it alone.
As far as pigs n stuff it's like Chris said, go with your conscience, it's great that you have a tender conscience toward God, I really respect that.
It probably would be boring if we all agreed with each other don't you think?
What good it does me here is that every day I am challenged about something or other and it keeps me studying the word.
You are a brother in Christ.
Your input challenged my thinking, that is important to me.
Iron does sharpen iron
In Christ
River |
Randyg
Registered user
Username: Randyg
Post Number: 403
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 10:39 pm: | |
This has turned into some interesting posts.
I grew up as the only vegetarian in a SDA family where everybody ate meat. Not a lot mind you, but fairly regularly. It is ironic that my siblings and parents still are Adventist and eat meat, while I am the only former in the family and continue to be the only vegetarian.
I have absolutely no problem with anybody eating anything at this point. And I relish and enjoy my freedom to still be a vegetarian. Hurrah for freedom.
Blessings to all,
Randy |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 851
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 5:16 am: | |
I dug out my old 2002 July/August Proclamation Magazine and re-read your article, Chris. I had thought of part of it earlier (about the rendering of the word "purging" in Mark) but had forgotten where I'd read it, and hadn't realized that you were the author of that article. Fun, fun. Good article! And bigtime irony about James White starting on that point with what the Bible said, but then later in life abandoning the Scriptures on that matter.
Something you wrote made me want to share something I thought of a day or two ago. You wrote:
quote:"However, Paul was careful to warn that no person should act as another's judge based on things that were only in place to prophetically point to Christ."
All of the Levitical laws pointed to Jesus Christ. Hallelu Yah!
The other day I was wondering why God called some foods "clean" and others "unclean"?
I remember reading in Philip Yancey's book, "What's So Amazing About Grace?" that he felt it basically amounted to the principle, "No oddballs allowed." He expanded by referring to how animals with defects (or people with defects) could not be used in ceremonies, etc. The standard for the old temple was that the sacrifices and people who operated it needed to be perfect in a sense.
I agreed with that, but needed to search further. The declaring of certain meats "clean" almost seems random. From modern science, we know that not all "unclean" meats are necessarily unhealthy. I live in Japan, and if ever there was a place to show that this is true, it ought to be here! (I think I've noted this so many times on the forum that I don't need to repeat it again).
While it could be argued that "germs" played a factor in "clean/unclean", there are other places where "clean/unclean" are used in a way that is obviously not health-conscious, but ceremonial. So it's best, I think, to understand that the distinction is a ceremonial one, not a health one.
The seeming randomness, I believe, was given to teach that there are no differences between Jews & Gentiles.
God had chosen Israel as His people & set them apart as holy. It was not because of anything they were in themselves or had done. They were not created "clean" while Gentiles were created "unclean."
Over time, however, Israel was guaranteed to forget that they were "clean" solely because of God's choice to enter into covenant with them. The meats would serve to teach the newborn Church that all people are created by God, and are all equally cleansed by Christ.
Christ is the one who makes clean the unclean, just like He did for the lepers, the diseased, the afflicted -- and all the sinful and not in the least, us too!
I think the distinction was given not to teach them about animals, but to teach them about people. I think we can arrive at this idea by using Peter's vision as the starting point for understanding the clean/unclean Levitical meat distinctions, instead of starting from Leviticus. Usually that's what we do. But rather, I think the vision God gave Peter shows the purpose of the meats' distinctions in the first place -- to point to how in Christ we are all "clean", and that it is not because of anything we have done, but because God has chosen to clean us in His love. |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 575
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 6:08 am: | |
Good points, Ramone, and that reminds me. Every time I bring up Peter's vision, my SDA peeps immediately throw it out as "just a dream". I always like to shoot back "well, so is the Revelation".
Now that I think of it, I may just add that dreams were EGW's whole M.O.
Sheesh. |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 852
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 6:15 am: | |
Hmm. I just remembered Isaiah 64:6 --
quote:"All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away."
It would be interesting to look up all the times in the prophets when comparisons are made to Israel's unrighteousness making her "unclean" in God's sight.
I'm thinking more and more that the whole "clean/unclean" thing points to our being cleansed in Jesus Christ! Don't cha feel that in the Spirit!!! Woohoo!! |
Stevendi
Registered user
Username: Stevendi
Post Number: 122
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 6:21 am: | |
Anybody want to buy a bumper sticker that says "Adventism is an unclean religion"?
Or how about "Adventism kills"?
steve |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 853
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 6:21 am: | |
Good point about Revelation, Leigh Anne! And thank you for your comments earlier. God is awesome, and He puts something special in each one of us. I'll be glad someday when I can come visit and hear more of the portion of Himself in you and in everyone else there in SoCal. I've still got several friends in Riverside, so I definitely will be making the trip someday. Don't know about leading a Bible study, but a small-group worship time would be more than bliss for me. I'd like to make it to a FAF conference in February, someday, too! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6002
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 1:56 pm: | |
Ha! Steve, your bumper-sticker ideas remind me of some buttons Richard made several years ago for a former SDA friend on his birthday. One of my favorites said, "Pork is food."
Regarding clean and unclean, it's been interesting for me to hear Gary Inrig's sermons these past several weeks on the book of Mark. He pointed out that in Mark 7 and 8, Jesus took his disciples to Tyre and Sidon, and that was the area where the feeding of the 4,000 occurred.
Here's the part I'd never realized: Tyre and Sidon was GENTILE territory. The feeding of the 5,000 had been done in JEWISH territory. Jesus purposefully took his disciples into Gentile territory and performed a miracle of FOOD where the old covenant Jewish disciples had to serve and EAT WITH Gentiles.
This event followed the episode where Jesus declared all foods clean (Mark 7:18-19) and the miracle of his healing the Syrophoenician woman's daughter who had an evil spirit.
Gary explained that Mark 8:4, where the disciples answered, "But where in the remote place can anyone get enough bread to feed them?" renders much stronger than that in Greek. He said in the Greek a more nearly accurate translation would be, "Where…can anyone get enough bread to feed these?" There is a tone of contempt here.
The point here was that Jesus was preparing His disciples for their work of ministry following His ascension. He deliberately took then into "unclean" territory and had them eat with unclean people—something strictly forbidden by Levitical law—not only eating with them but SERVING these "Gentile dogs".
Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath and the Lord of the Law, had his disciples specifically break their Jewish ceremonies in order to minister to Gentiles.
I had never realized before that even before God clearly abrogated the Levitical law and gave Peter that dream of the sheet of creatures, Jesus systematically led His disciples through ministry training among the "unclean", preparing them for the New Covenant that was about to be introduced in the world through His own death and resurrection and through the 12 as they went into the world and established the church.
Amazing!
Colleen |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 949
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 2:04 pm: | |
That IS amazing! Thank you for sharing this Colleen!
Mary |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1856
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 5:20 pm: | |
Interesting, Colleen. Something that really impacted me was what Jesus instructed "the seventy" to do in Luke 10.
quote:"1Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.
[...]
5"Whatever house you enter, first say, 'Peace be to this house.'
6"If a man of peace is there, your peace will rest on him; but if not, it will return to you.
7"Stay in that house, eating and drinking what they give you; for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not keep moving from house to house.
8"Whatever city you enter and they receive you, eat what is set before you;" (Luke 10:1, 5-8 NASB.)
Also, I just noticed today that when Jesus sent out the twelve (Luke 9 and Matthew 10), He told them not to go to the Gentiles, and He says nothing about eating what is set before them.
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on June 06, 2007) |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 843
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 6:25 pm: | |
Boy that was terrific Colleen and Jeremy.
Thanks for sharing, It had never dawned om me that Tyre and Sidon was gentile territory.
River |
Bobj
Registered user
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 191
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 10:28 pm: | |
Colleen and Jeremy
Great posts! I learned from both of you!
Bob |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 136
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 6:10 am: | |
Not meaning to veer off the topic a bit, but I notice Ramone mentioned Phillip Yancey's book., "What's so Amazing about Grace"? The pastor of the SDA church that I attend against my will gave me a copy of that book and unbeknown to him, it was the FINAL nail in the coffin for me being an Adventist. WHen I read that book and saw how diametrically opposed to Adventism the stuff in this book was I realised there was nothing salavgeable in Adventism as there is NO grace in Adventism.
The Levitical food laws are just one of the many "works" in Adventism.
Sometimes I wish Doug Batchelor would crawl back into his cave. |
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