| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 823 Registered: 9-2006  |
Bob, I thank you for your kind post, I seem to be a bit touchy lately and it was uncalled for. You brought me back to the realization of what this is all about. Thank you again for your strength and kindness. Iron does sharpen iron for a fact. River | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 567 Registered: 6-2006  |
Ramone, in addition to what you wrote, if we're putting Isaiah in context, it would seem to me that those verses written were between God and the Jews, right? I've been really thinking about this a lot lately. The SDA church has taken ownership of an expired covenant that was between God and a whole other culture (the Jews) in a whole other time and space. We Christians are not under those old dead laws that belonged to someone else. I don't follow Islamic law, or the Pirate's code for that matter! (Okay, well maybe a little of the Pirate's code). Brian, we all love you - you know that. Please don't try and make us feel guilty for not following someone else's old dead laws. It won't work! We're all free in Christ and that includes you!! Along with that, we won't make you eat pork or anything else that you don't want. I'm not crazy about sushi...  Leigh Anne | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 568 Registered: 6-2006 |
(Sorry I veered off course of the conversation. I'm a slow typist and three people posted in the time it took me to rattle off my thoughts!) | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 844 Registered: 10-2002  |
Amen, Charles Spurgeon! Praise You, God!! ***** Hi Brian and blessings to you in Jesus Christ, our wonderful, complete and loving Savior! Isaiah 66 is joined to Isaiah 65, which also talks about people dying in the new earth. At the end of Isaiah 66, it talks about keeping the Sabbath day and the New Moon festivals eternally. These two chapters are written through the lens of the Old Covenant shadows -- that is why they still see death in eternity, and that is why they still see already-fulfilled ceremonial shadows in eternity. The Levitical laws need to be examined by the light of the New Covenant -- for the Levitical laws are shadows meant to point to Christ who is the Light Himself. Firstly, things such as pork were not prohibited from the time of Noah to the time of the first Passover & deliverance from Egypt. Secondly, Acts 15. It only prohibits "strangled things" and "blood". The reason those regulations are given is open to different interpretations, but it is clear that there is no specific identification of which meats are acceptable and which are "abominations" for the Gentiles to consume. Some have argued that James' statement in Acts 15 about Moses being preached in the synagogues means that the Gentiles were already learning Moses. This makes no sense for the following reasons: 1) If so, it would mean that all the Gentile Christians were attending synagogues every Sabbath 2) If the Gentiles were learning and observing Moses (meaning the whole Torah and all its laws), they would need to be circumcised, etc. 3) If the Gentiles were learning and observing Moses, it was completely unnecessary for James & the brethren to tell the Gentiles to abstain from things offered to idols, strangled things, and to abstain from sexual immorality! Each of those things are clearly forbidden by Moses!! If they were already learning Moses, then they didn't need to write the letter at all, and there was no need for the whole council in Acts 15 at all. Nope. Instead, James says what he does about "Moses" because Jews learned Moses in synagogues every week, and any encounters between Gentile Christians and Jews would result in being told about Moses (the Torah). James & the brethren wanted the Gentile Christians to know that they did not have to be under Moses as the Jews were. Don't get me wrong, bro, there are indeed abominations, but which animal meats are okay to eat is something not explicitly spelled out for us, and this is in keeping with the New Covenant which has a law of the Spirit, not the law of the letter. Had the eating of certain meats been an abomination in God's sight, then God would have certainly told everyone from Noah 'til Moses. But He didn't. And had the eating of certain meets been an abomination in God's sight, the Holy Spirit would have told them so in the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. The Levitical regulations on food were given only in the time of the Sinatic covenant -- the Old Covenant. Prior to then and after that covenant was fulfilled and replaced by a new one, there have been no explicit directives on which meats are okay/forbidden for every believer. Hope this makes sense. Blessings in Jesus Christ to you, brother! In Him Ramone P.S. Leigh Anne, the way you put that is perfect: "The SDA church has taken ownership of an expired covenant that was between God and a whole other culture (the Jews) in a whole other time and space." (!!!) Have you tried sushi? I like salmon the best. Kids here love sushi. It's so cute to see them pick it up with their little hands (instead of chopsticks) and shove it in their mouths. Having sushi together is a fun family time, always exciting for kids. ...Unnn, nanka... tabetai na! Kyou wa ikitai! | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 569 Registered: 6-2006 |
You know Ramone, I have tried Sushi. It's the seaweed that I don't like, and sometimes the rice ends up tasting like the seaweed as well. It's crazy, because I'll eat almost any seafood (as long as it's warmed up!) Great post about the covenants by the way. I sure wish you lived here in So-Cal and lead some bible studies. I'd be the first to line up. Yotaku! Leigh Anne | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 74 Registered: 10-2004 |
After reading this post I wish I had been listening more carefully to Doug Batchlor on Friday night. My inlaws are here visiting and they were watching him. His talk was on unclean meats for a Christian. To sum it up: He talked about how in the old testament no Jew would have taken a pig into the temple(very blasphemous). If that would have happen he said that the Spirit of the Lord would have departed from the camp. The segway was since our bodies our the temples of God why would we knowningly put pig flesh into our bodies? When we do that the Spirit of God cannot live in us. He said that people that dont know better are excused by God, but once the "truth" is known we are held responsible. When my in-laws turned it off to go to bed the talk had turned to healthly living (many points of which I agree). My mother in law started to say how good that was. At that point I said that I did not agree with his observation about the "Spirit leaving in the presence of pig" She agreed but we did not get into a bigger discussion. Might have to use some points in this forum in my discussion with her when and if the time comes. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5989 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hey, Schasc, it's good to see you! I have a feeling of "being there" as you mention your conversation with your in-laws. Yes, I think there are great points on this thread you could use... Colleen | ||
| Brian4 Registered user Username: Brian4 Post Number: 26 Registered: 1-2006 |
I'm not judging nor do I feel I am proof texting. The blood of Christ is sufficient and His finished work on our behalf is everything. I know that Christ's blood has cleansed us washed us clean and we are pure. My understanding is we are clean. A pig was created unclean and in the new covenant a pig is still a pig. Here is some food for thought. Would Christ waste good food to eat? Why did he cast out the demons into a heard of swine and send them over a cliff, if they were good for food? Iron does sharpen iron for a fact. Leigh Anne and Ramone Thanks for your kind words also. If it's alright with you folks I'll stay with what I am convicted on and I would not force anyone to believe just wanted you to consider what the Word says and let each one be fully convinced in their own heart. The LORD knows mine. Blessings in Christ. Brian | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 845 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi Brian, You make a good point that a pig is still a pig in both covenants. However, pigs were forbidden only in the Old Covenant. Before the old covenant there was no order to refrain from eating them. I beg you to also re-read Acts 15 and understand that the Holy Spirit and the apostles of Christ did not forbid us from eating certain meats. And in Mark 7:19, Jesus declared all foods "clean". And again, "Food does not bring us near to God -- we are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better if we do." (1 Cor. 8:8) The issue of meats is not something that gets between us and God, which is why He told us not to judge one another about it (Col.2:16). One person eats, another doesn't. It's your God-given choice and right to eat what meats or vegetables -- to abstain from what you wish. No one here is going to judge you. But we will stand firmly on the Council of Jerusalem's decision in Acts 15. The Lord indeed knows our hearts, and according to His word, He doesn't judge us about food. That is AWESOME! And it is Hallelu-Yah GOOD NEWS! Bless you again in Him, bro! Keeling over in His love, Ramone | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 446 Registered: 10-2001  |
My pastor says if you don't like Krystal burgers and Krispy Kreme doughnuts you aren't saved. :X | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 830 Registered: 9-2006 |
Brian, I do apologize for my sharp retort, I was still smarting from a story I read under “Stories” on the front of this website. I do not offer that as excuse for I know I stand without excuse, Bobs gentle post reminded me of this scripture Timothy II 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, So I stand before you in meek apology, not because of what you said but because of what the Bible instructs me very clearly. What you said I still think sounds just like Adventism to me and I think you were proof texting in an attempt to justify how you feel about eating for you stated “I would like to put the breathren in remberence of these things.” Under the underline, however I could have read it wrong. The passage in Isaiah was not submitted in order to clarify that passage but was instead offered up as a means to your own ends and therefore that is why I thought it proof texting. We any of us cannot be a servant of God and deal in dishonesty and so I am just trying to be honest with you. If I had Bacon with my eggs the day before, what you said intonates that I am an abomination to God for eating by the way you used those scripture. Can you see where that might fire me up just a little bit? You see, I was raised on a farm where we depended on the curative properties contained in hog meat, it enabled us to survive the winter where otherwise it would have been near onto impossible. In the fall we had the unpleasant task of going out to slaughter animals that were not deserving of being shot and having it’s throat cut, it was a grave task and an unpleasant one. We hunted some in winter to supplement that and by the end of February and the first of march the potatoes had run out, what we canned was a distant memory and what bacon was left tasted mighty good and we were thankful to get anything to eat. There were mouths to feed 7 days a week, the adults may very well just take up another notch in their belt but the little one’s will begin to cry for something to eat and that can do to a man what nothing else can. There is nothing can make a man feel low as that has the ability to do. That brings me right back to Ellen White, where I have been and what I have seen, which is not near the hardship of my father and grandfather. The drivel she put out makes me think she was raised in the city and had no idea, no clue of what is involved in living. I have wondered since coming here many times of how many honest hearted farmers who desired to please God had to hide their staples and was made to feel lower that a snakes belly when their Adventist brethren came for fellowship and to share a meal with one another after Ellen White got thru with them. I still would like the answer to that question provided anyone can answer it. You see, from my point of view all this hackling back and forth over what is good to eat or not good to eat is so very easily answered. Test your theories under starvation and hard times, then tell me where your real convictions lay. I smart under Ellen Whites drivel and under Adventist drivel and I admit it. There has been times I would have thanked God for a skinny squirrel and her drivel and Adventist drivel has a tendency to fire me up and I have to end up praying about my own attitude. Yep, iron sharpens iron and hunger sharpens the belly and decisions about food are easily made by a stomach already full. I have to wonder what God thinks of these discussions on food while at the same time watching a child lay in his mothers arms and fret because there is no milk in it’s mother’s breast from lack of food of any kind. I just get to wondering about theses things is all. River | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 946 Registered: 8-2004  |
Amen Ramone, clean vs unclean didn't come about til a LONG time after Noah had been given 'all things' to eat (as part of God's blessing to him, no less - see Gen. 9:1-8). | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1582 Registered: 7-2003 |
River, your description is my mother's own family history and I've had the exact same thoughts. The gospel is not different in the US than in Africa or India or anywhere else where there is substandard food and water. If someone starving anywhere has to choose death over pork, I suspect most will choose pork. My own family survived winters on pork sausage they made at butchering time. I've told the story before of my grandmother having to cook my uncle's pet rabbit because there was no other food available for dinner. She told me how he cried. The gospel is the same yesterday, today and forever... It has to work in every nation, under every circumstance and situation. Look at how many foods are native to this country. Look how many are imported in the winter months in the grocery stores. Are we more spiritual now that we have shipping systems to bring 'correct' food in from far away? It just cannot be about food or God gave some unfair advantages with weather/climate, etc.! | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 947 Registered: 8-2004 |
River, those who actually believe that clean vs unclean, or, as a further extension, vegetarianism vs omnivorous diets are a salvation issue take 'starvation situations' as 'tests of character' or sometimes as 'tests of faith. After all, if God truly requires a specific diet than it would be better to die than eat something He has forbidden - we ought to obey God rather than man. I remember stories of people in concentration camps who refused to eat the pork laden food provided and had fish show up miraculously for their needs, and stories of vegetarians remained healthy by choosing to skip food altogether for extended periods rather than eat the meat provided . . . There's even one touching story of a SDARM pastor (sometimes claimed as an SDA) imprisoned for his faith in Russia. He firmly refused to eat anything against his conscience and so would give his 'unclean portions' to other prisoners, and Christians of other convictions would give him some of their vegetables and bread. He spent years in that prison work camp and gained a reputation for quiet godliness, Christian fortitude and compassion, while his wife worked hard back home raising their eight or nine(I don't remember the exact number) children and carrying on his work. Still, the issue is not practicality or conviction or convenience or even idealism, the issue is what saith the Lord. And the Lord has made all things clean! In my own experience as an SDA I had some interest in trying 'clean meats' at a few points in my life (my father ate clean meats and my mother was vegetarian - I tasted meat but only on rare occasions) but was revolted by the idea of unclean meats. Then God released me from SDAism, removed the veil I'd been looking at the Bible through, and suddenly I found I was free! It was only after that freeing that I suddenly had an interest in trying all the marvelous variety of foods God has given us! Blessings, Mary | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 573 Registered: 6-2006 |
Sabra - Haha!! Leigh Anne | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1312 Registered: 7-2003  |
Brian, I would advise you not to eat anything that pricks your conscience. Our consciences were erroneously conditioned by Adventism as were our understandings of scripture. Until the latter is corrected, the former should be respected. In other words, we need to start by developing an understanding of how to correctly read and interpret scripture in context while avoiding proof-texting. Only then will we feel comfortable living as New Covenant Christians. Only once the Spirit brings us to a place where we understand, based on scripture, that the things we once were told were sins are actually non-issues for New Covenant Christians can we safely begin to exercise Christian freedom if we so choose. The Truth really does set us free! In the meantime it's important to be in the Word of God daily and avoid doing anything that sears the conscience (even if the conscience is still erroneously conditioned). If you are interested in the strong Biblical reasons why nearly all Christians throughout the Church age have utterly rejected the idea that New Covenant Christians are under food restrictions, you may want to read an article I wrote a while back. You can access it here: ARE SOME FOODS UNCLEAN? If you believe I have misused or misunderstood any of the pertinent scripture on the subject, please let me know. I would be happy to speak with you about it. In the meantime, keep doing what you’re doing. Don’t sear you conscience, but spend as much time in the Word and in prayer as you can. Each of us must do this if we truly want the renewing of our minds that the Bible promises. Chris Lee | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5998 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris, very good advice. Brian, one thing I struggled with as I worked through Adventism was wondering how I could know what the Bible really said. How could I know my new understandings weren't just as "twisted" as my old ones? I learned that God is 100% faithful to answer the prayer to know the truth. If we submit our minds and hearts to Him and pray that He will teach us the truth by His Spirit as we read His word, He will absolutely do that. It's essential that we actually spend time studying His word, and submitting ourselves to what He says to us through it. He is faithful--and He always tells the truth! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3742 Registered: 3-2004  |
Brian, How I knew what I had learned from the Bible was right, was that I came to FAF and found each person who left adventism had gone through the same thing I had and more importantly had learned the same thing I had learned. Then I went to my church and took Starting Point and DiscoveryE and that taught me what I had already learned from God and the Bible. After all, God does not tell one person one thing and another something else. He is always teaching the truth, to every one He teaches. All the sources I checked taught the same thing. He will not mislead you or drop you after He has brought you this far. Diana | ||
| Brian4 Registered user Username: Brian4 Post Number: 27 Registered: 1-2006 |
Chris, I really enjoyed your article, ARE SOME FOODS UNCLEAN. It is very insightful. River, If I seemed to be judgmental in any way, I do sincerely apologize. There are many very wonderful loving and understanding fellow believers on this forum. You are one as well. I understand a little more now than I did yesterday. I am truly thankful for that. I do enjoy the fellowship and I would not want to alienate any of you. You have been very patient with me. I never fully bought into all the teachings of Sadism. I do have much to learn and unlearn as I continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Savior. Please forgive me for being judgmental in any way. That was not my intent. Colleen you are 100% correct that God is 100% faithful to answer the prayer to know the truth. Thank you each one for your ministry. This truly is a wonderful forum. In Christ Brian . | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 190 Registered: 1-2006  |
Brian You mentioned having to unlearn stuff. That is just a huge challenge for me! It's not easy! I never thought you were judgmental. I'm glad you speak up. And I agree, this is a good forum. I really feel like I'm among friends here. Sure, we get a little intense at times, and given what we've all come through, it's really pretty tame. Thanks for your comment about the grace and knowledge of our Savior. What a friend we have in Jesus, eh?!! Bob |
