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Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1863
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 12:17 pm: |     |
Larry, I found your post about Adventism and time very interesting. I have some additional thoughts on this subject.
Adventism also teaches that time has always existed, and that "God" has always been trapped inside of time. When they say that "God" is "eternal" they are not using the same definition of "eternal" that Christianity uses (sound familiar?). They reject the notion of timelessness--that God is outside of time, that He is the I AM, that there is no past, present, or future to Him. Instead, their "God" has existed within time for an infinite number of "years" past (an illogical concept!). Also, since time and space are related, they also teach that "God" is trapped within space and takes up a certain amount of space. This also leads to their teaching that "God" is material. According to Adventism, "God" not only has a body--"God" is a body (since they teach that there is no such thing as a spirit). Actually, though, they teach that "God" is three bodies. In Adventism, "God" is radically redefined as a "group" of three physical/material divine beings (gods), who take up a certain amount of space and who have always been trapped inside time! So, according to Adventism, time, space, and matter are all "eternal," uncreated. And thus time, space, and matter become god! They worship time (especially the seventh day of the week!) and they even admit to worshipping matter/space, since they say that their "Godhead" is matter!
Also related to this same subject is the SDA teaching that the Law (including "the Sabbath day"), is "eternal" and has always existed and has always been religiously "kept" by..."the Godhead" "itself"! Even "God" is under the Law and "must keep" it! (BTW, if God is under the Law, then that means that the Law is above God!) So, their teaching is that "the Sabbath day" has always existed for an infinite number of weeks past (again, an illogical concept!). How could you possibly have an infinite number of "seventh days" in the past, if there was NO first day (time has always existed)?! In order to have a "seventh day" you MUST have a first day (and a second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth!)! It is pure nonsense. (Also, how can you have a "Sabbath day" before there was any earth or sun, and how can they prove it was the SAME day that they themselves "keep" [since that is so vitally important and "eternal"]? Impossible!)
When Genesis speaks of "the seventh day" notice that it does NOT say any of the following things: "seventh day of creation" (uh, nothing was created on that day, so how can anyone call it that?), "seventh day of creation week," or even "seventh day of the week" or even "the first seventh day"!
No. It simply calls it what it was: "the seventh day"! It was the seventh day in history! In other words, there had only ever been six previous days since God created this thing called time! When it says, "the first day" it means exactly that--it was the first day ever! Ever!
And since time began with the first day (duh! that should be obvious to us, but Adventism brainwashed us to where we just plain don't think right!! oh my!  ), then that means that NOTHING was created before the first day. In Adventism, we were taught that the angels were around for ages before the earth was created (and "kept the Sabbath day" for all those ages), and that the fall of Satan even occurred ages before the earth was created! (EGW tried to make the angels [including Satan] seem eternal almost.) However, those ideas are, again, completely Adventist and are not Biblical. According to the Bible, the angels were created during those first six days of time.
Also, this means that the Adventist idea that the earth itself was created "billions of years" before "the first day of creation" (contradictory-sounding statements anyway!) cannot be true.
Adventism denies God's Word from the very first verse:
quote:"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Genesis 1:1 NASB.)
It was the beginning--the beginning of time and all things. Only God existed "before" time--in eternity. Also, "In the beginning was the Word" (John 1:1a NASB)--that means that He is outside of time, He is the I AM, He is eternal (timeless)!
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on June 11, 2007) |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1864
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 12:30 pm: | |
By the way, the concept of time being created when the earth was, also helps explain phrases such as "before the world was," "before the foundation of the world," etc. It's not talking about a specifc point in time--it's talking about eternity!
Jeremy |
Brian3
Registered user
Username: Brian3
Post Number: 110
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 1:21 pm: | |
Jeremy,
Could you flesh this statement out a little bit for me?
"According to the Bible, the angels were created during those first six days of time."
Now, I'm not disagreeing with you. But that is a pretty radical statement in my current paradigm! :-)
Thanks,
Brian |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1865
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 5:38 pm: | |
Well, like I said, Genesis 1:1 says that "the beginning" was when God created the heavens and the earth. And nothing could have been created before time, or else it would be eternal and would be a god! (In the beginning was the Word--not angels!) Also, Genesis says that everything God created was created in those first six days.
The last verse of Genesis chapter 1 says:
quote:"God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day." (Genesis 1:31 NASB.)
Also, note that God could not declare everything He had made "very good" if there was already sinful beings (satan and his demons).
And then Genesis chapter 2 begins with:
quote:"Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.
2By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done," (Genesis 2:1-2a NASB.)
Also, the following quote that Jeremiah posted on this thread from Irenaeus (early church father), got me thinking about what the Bible teaches about the fall of Satan:
quote:"This commandment the man kept not, but was disobedient to God, being led astray by the angel who, for the great gifts of God which He had given to man, was envious and jealous of him, and both brought himself to nought and made man sinful, persuading him to disobey the commandment of God. So the angel, becoming by his falsehood the author and originator of sin, himself was struck down, having offended against God, and man he caused to be cast out from Paradise. And, because through the guidance of his disposition he apostatized and departed from God, he was called Satan, according to the Hebrew word; that is, Apostate: but he is also called Slanderer."
It had never occurred to me before that we should place the fall of Satan not with some event not recorded in Scripture, but with the Biblical account! Genesis 3!
quote:"Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, 'Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?'
2The woman said to the serpent, 'From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.''
4"The serpent said to the woman, 'You surely will not die!
5'For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.'
[...]
14The LORD God said to the serpent,
'Because you have done this,
Cursed are you more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you will go,
And dust you will eat
All the days of your life;
15And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.'" (Genesis 3:1-5, 14-15 NASB.)
Satan's fall was in Genesis 3! God cursed him.
And then it is also interesting to compare Genesis with the following passages:
quote:Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13"You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14"You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15"You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16"By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17"Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18"By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19"All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever."'" (Ezekiel 28:12-19 NASB.)
"How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!
13"But you said in your heart,
'I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north.
14'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.'
15"Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit." (Isaiah 14:12-15 NASB.)
Notice in the first passage the part about being in Eden (while still perfect it sounds like) and the parallels with the cursing of the serpent, etc., in Genesis 3, etc. And in the first passage, the parallel to Genesis 3 of being like God.
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on June 11, 2007) |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1866
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 6:00 pm: | |
A couple of links that might be helpful on this subject are here and here. Here are a couple more passages that show that angels were created when the heavens and the earth were:
quote:"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them,..." (Exodus 20:11 NASB.)
"For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him." (Colossians 1:16 NASB.)
Jeremy |
Bobj
Registered user
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 204
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 7:20 pm: | |
Larry
Years ago I glanced through one of the DARCOM publications in the local ABC. I noted that DARCOM scholars had renamed the IJ in an apparent attempt to deflect criticism. The DARCOM paper referred to it as a "pre-advent heavenly audit."
I felt immense relief after reading that.
Bob
(Message edited by bobj on June 11, 2007) |
Brian3
Registered user
Username: Brian3
Post Number: 111
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 8:06 pm: | |
Thanks, Jeremy!
Must be the 13+ years of SDA schooling holding over. I knew angels were created just thought at some other place and/or time, not part of THIS creation! |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 3762
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 8:24 pm: | |
There is so much to learn, that I had not even given it a thought. It is not a salvation thing, so I had not investigated it.
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6034
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 9:57 pm: | |
Jeremy, this is so interesting. I had never thought about Satan's fall as being in Eden before, either. Interestingly, Richard's reading for this week's leadership/theology class at church is Grudem's chapter on angels. He also makes the statement that the angels were part of creation, not something that happened long before.
Amazing. The Ellen foundation is so subtle and world-view-shaping.
And yes, Bob, that "re-naming" is quite the comfort, is it not?!
Colleen |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 234
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 10:53 am: | |
I hadn't ever thought angels and men were created in the same time frame before, either. But in fact that is what the Christian belief has been, looks like. I was reading more of the context of that quote from Irenaeus and in fact that is what he teaches. You can research that for yourself here; http://www.ccel.org/ccel/irenaeus/demonstr.html
Jeremiah |
Nicole
Registered user
Username: Nicole
Post Number: 66
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 11:25 am: | |
i too never thought of the angels being created during those "six days". i do however believe that those six days aren't literally 24 hours each. could be much, much longer perhaps? |
Larry
Registered user
Username: Larry
Post Number: 18
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 8:28 am: | |
Here is another time lie that SDA's have foisted upon themselves without having examined the evidence.
One day I decided there was something REALLY wrong with the 2300 days ending in first 1843, then 1844 given the "adjustment" for there never having been a year "zero", right before 1 AD. I felt there was something physically wrong with the model.
Here is what I did.
Cut two identical strips of paper, each 1 inch tall by 6 inches wide.
On one strip I labeled the left extreme side Zero, and the right extreme side 2300.
On the other strip I labeled the extreme left side 457 BC, and the right extreme side 1843.
Now when you position the 1843 paper right above the 2300 paper, all things match perfectly. But the problem comes when correcting for the year ZERO. You have to snip the 1843 paper in the middle (I used scissors) and add a small amount of space representing a year. What then happens is the 2300 day paper then ends at 1842! The "pioneers" recognized that the failed 1843 timesetting could not possibly be adjusted back to 1842, as that year had already come and gone with no 2nd coming! Instead of adding in the middle of the paper strip, for a missing year zero, they tacked on a year past 1843, yeilding 1844 (hoping nobody would notice!) So the next best thing was to sell the 1844 lie, and it sold like hotcakes. The believers in such were decieved about time anyway, and probably nobody ever raised a proper objection to the adjustment. That, plus a woman used of the devil claiming God was in the timesetting, was the nucleus of the present day scam. I think the SDA church just might be the remnant alright, but that of Revelation 19:21 KJV. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6045
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 1:04 pm: | |
Hmmm..very interesting reconstruction of the "time model", Larry!
Colleen |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1316
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 7:29 pm: | |
Larry!!!!!!!!! I feel so stupid!!!!!!!!
You're right! That has to be right! Removing the "zero year" can't possibly give you an extra year for a false prediction to be fulfilled. It merely removes a year and gives you one less year to work with than you had before!
Now I finally understand why Miller was so slow and reluctant to accept this new calculation. It makes even less sense than his first calculation (if that's possible). That blows my mind. I feel really slow on the uptake. Thanks for your asute observation.
Chris |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1317
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 7:54 pm: | |
Okay wait! Hold up just a second. After posting I thought about this more......actually I went and got strips of paper and recreated your experiment Larry. The adjustment does actually work to readjust the year from 1843 to 1844. Here's the deal, the Millerites did their original calculation with a zero year so make sure your 457 B.C. to 1843 A.D. strip has a zero year on it and that your 0 to 2300 strip is the exact same length. The Millerites then realized that there was no zero year. So now you need to snip the zero out of the 457 to 1843 strip. That strip is now shorter than the 2300 year strip causing the 2300 years to end not in 1843, but in 1844. I'm obviously not great with math, but your suggestion of using paper strips helps a lot. Doing this, I'm pretty sure the revised Millerite calculations "work" (ridiculous as they are).
Chris |
Larry
Registered user
Username: Larry
Post Number: 19
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 8:20 pm: | |
Okay, Chris, now you have me wondering. Can you do this using the Jewish calender which has never undergone AD, BC transformations?
Of course there was never a "year zero", but on a Jewish calender, it would be some sort of positive interger. I lack the time to do it right now. But the Jewish positive interger would correspond to the theoretical year zero.
Can we just snip out a year in the Jewish calender in arbitrary fashion? Why is this 1843 to 1844 date changing info so hard to get at?
EGW calls Millers theories the "perfect chain of truth" and the "saving message" but it is suprisingly difficult to find this truthful, saving info. It is as if it has been totally left out of any SDA writings.
Also, wouldn't the "perfect chain of truth" also include the right event on the right date? LOL
Where is Reb, the local mathmatician when you need him? |
Bobj
Registered user
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 206
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 8:34 pm: | |
This might explain why I flunked math and history, but . . .
Jan-Dec of BC3, J-D2, J-D1, J-D "0" followed by? Wouldn't December of year 0 (BC) be followed by January of year O (AD)?
BC3,2,1,0. Dec of BC0 would be followed by January of AD0, right?
Like this?? 32100123
Somebody help! I don't know what the months were called then, but in reality, didn't they just go from Dec of 1BC directly to Jan of 1AD? Wouldn't they have missed year 0 of BC and also year 0 of AD?
Also, didn't the ancients count a full year of a kings reign even if he started reigning mid year?
Same when his reign ended, so if he stopped reigning in March, for example, they would count him as having reigned for the entire year?
So was 457 counted as a full year?
I'm not defending the Millerites, nor am I sure these questions really matter, but it's not hard to see how errors would creep into the math AND history as they were struggling with this.
Bob
(Message edited by bobj on June 13, 2007) |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 877
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 12:09 am: | |
*laugh*
*sigh*
My Lord! How far we humans go to explain something that was nothing! C.S. Lewis said that the trouble with trying to be stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed!
Just that one mistake, that one error -- the error of attempting to calculate the date of Christ's return -- that one ignoring of the Bible's instruction... and look at the result! All of Adventism came out of that one mistake. All of Adventism is founded on top of that one "fact" which is not a fact at all, but an error.
And how hard it is to simply admit that error! It is the piece of the jenga puzzle that will make the tower fall; it is the toothpick the empire state has been resting on.
Pull it out, Lord, pull it out!
"And the wind rose and the waves beat against that house and it came down with a great crash..."
Pull it out of the hearts of the people in the house! Show them the toothpick supporting the whole foundation! In Jesus' name -- the great Iconoclast Himself, amen! |
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