| Author |
Message |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 125
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 2:07 pm: |     |
That is beautiful, snowboardingmom.
Praise God! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5964
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 4:00 pm: | |
Grace, Thank you. That second verse is profound. Thank you again.
Colleen |
Bobj
Registered user
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 173
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 4:16 pm: | |
Reb
In the churches where I grew up, character perfection (safe to save) was a very big deal. These were fear-driven discussions.
Here are a couple more quotes from Ellen. Note the dates on the first two--very late in her life.
"All who believe in Christ as a personal Saviour will perfect a character after Christ's likeness." Manuscript Release #911. 1894
"Those who enter into eternal life enter it because the perfection of Christ's character has been imparted to them." RH Feb 18, 1909
Note the imparted, not imputed! This is outright human perfectionism in the flesh!
"It is your work to advance toward perfection, making constant improvement, until at last you are pronounced worthy to receive immortal life." HP 186
"pronounced worthy" should have been a cue to us that something was wrong!
Bob |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 129
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 4:20 pm: | |
But then they actually believe it's IMPOSSIBLE to be saved. There is NO WAY we can be perfect like Christ, Christ is GOD we are NOT God.
Either they're saying it's impossible to be saved or they're denying Christ's divinity or both. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1839
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 4:29 pm: | |
Actually, Ellen teaches that we get to "take" Christ's "divinity" and that we can be as divine as He was (which wasn't too much!).
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on June 01, 2007) |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 131
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 7:31 am: | |
Isn't that kind of like the Mormons then, who claim men can become "gods".
Oh well, doesn't surprise me, they're both cults with egregious errors. I used to think the Mormon cult was worse than the SDA but now I'm beginning to realise it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1848
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 4:23 pm: | |
Reb, yes, it is very much like the Mormons.
I thought I would post some quotes to back up what I said above about what EGW teaches regarding people becoming gods. (I hope nobody feels like they have to read through all these quotes--I am posting a bunch of them [25 to be exact!] for those who may want overwhelming evidence!) I will highlight some of the worst parts.
quote:"The life of Christ is to be revealed in humanity. Man was the crowning act of the creation of God, made in the image of God, and designed to be a counterpart of God; but Satan has labored to obliterate the image of God in man, and to imprint upon him his own image. Man is very dear to God, because he was formed in his own image. This fact should impress us with the importance of teaching by precept and example the sin of defiling, by the indulgence of appetite, or by any other sinful practice, the body which is designed to represent God to the world. The medical missionary can do a great amount of good by educating the people how to live." (Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 06-18-1895, "Go Ye Into All the World (Concluded)," paragraph 2.)
"Man has the assurance that he can become a partaker of the divine nature, even as Christ became a partaker of human nature." (Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 08-28-1900, "Partakers of the Divine Nature," paragraph 3.)
"The obedience of Christ to his Father was the same obedience that is required of man. Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations except as divine power works through humanity. The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what God in his own divine person could do, but what he could do through humanity. Through faith man is to be a partaker of the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset." (The Signs of the Times, 04-10-1893, "Overcome As Christ Overcame," paragraph 3.)
"He came to this earth to work in behalf of men, that they might no longer be under the control of Satanic agencies. But while bearing human nature, he was dependent upon the Omnipotent for his life. In his humanity, he laid hold of the divinity of God; and this every member of the human family has the privilege of doing. Christ did nothing that human nature may not do if it partakes of the divine nature." (The Signs of the Times, 06-17-1897, "The Life and Light of Men," paragraph 8.)
"In order that man might be thus privileged, Christ, the divine Son of God, joined himself to human nature, that man might understand that the living true God would have every son and daughter of Adam a partaker of the divine nature through union with himself, and thus manifest to the world, to unfallen worlds, and to the synagogue of Satan, that the redemption of the fallen race is possible." (The Signs of the Times, 04-11-1895, "Revelation of God through Christ," paragraph 5.)
"Christ brought men and women power to overcome. He came to this world in human form, to live a man amongst men. He assumed the liabilities of human nature, to be proved and tried. In His humanity He was a partaker of the divine nature." (Selected Messages, Book 1, page 226, paragraph 2.)
"Through the victory of Christ the same advantages that he had are provided for man; for he may be a partaker of a power out of and above himself, even a partaker of the divine nature, by which he may overcome the corruption that is in the world through lust." (The Signs of the Times, 01-16-1896, "Sin Condemned in the Flesh," paragraph 6.)
"He assumed human nature, that He might elevate the human family, make them partakers of the divine nature, and place them on vantage ground with God." (Lift Him Up, page 208, paragraph 2.)
"He assumed human nature to make it possible for man to be a partaker of the divine nature." (Medical Ministry, page 189, paragraph 3.)
"The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us 'partakers of the divine nature,' and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin." (The Ministry of Healing, page 180, paragraph 5.)
"In Him the weakness of humanity was united with the strength of divinity. Because He experienced the temptations of humanity, He knows how to succor all who are tempted; because His human nature was united with divinity, every young man, every young woman, who chooses to follow in His footsteps, may be a partaker of the divine nature, and escape the corruption that is in the world through lust." (Lake Union Herald, 10-20-1909, "An Address To The Youth," paragraph 6.)
"Christ, the spotless Son of God, honored humanity by taking upon himself fallen human nature. A suffering, tempted man, beset by Satan's devices, his divinity clothed with humanity, he so lived on this earth as to show, by his perfect obedience to his Father's will, what humanity could become by partaking of the divine nature." (Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 09-29-1896, "The Uplifted Saviour," paragraph 1.)
"To bring humanity into Christ, to bring the fallen race into oneness with divinity, is the work of redemption. Christ took human nature that men might be one with him as he is one with the Father, that God may love man as he loves his only begotten Son, that men may be partakers of the divine nature, and be complete in him." (Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 04-05-1906, "The Word Made Flesh," paragraph 15.)
"It is our privilege so fully to partake of the divine nature that we may be one with Christ as he is one with the Father." (Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 05-01-1900, "Christian Perfection [Concluded]," paragraph 8.)
"Christ took upon Himself humanity for us. He clothed His divinity, and divinity and humanity were combined. [...] He took humanity upon Himself to demonstrate that with divinity and humanity combined, man could keep the law of Jehovah. Separate humanity from divinity, and you can try to work out your own righteousness from now till Christ comes, and it will be nothing but a failure." (Faith and Works, page 71, paragraph 1.)
"He took humanity upon Him, but He did not leave His divinity; He clothed His divinity with humanity. [...] He stood in humanity to bear all the battles and conflicts as our Head, thus elevating with God every human being on the face of the earth. Now, Christ took humanity that humanity might take His divinity. He took our nature that He might give to human nature His nature. [...] We read in 2 Peter 1 that you are to be divine partakers of Jesus Christ, and there is not one of the very simplest in the institution but that he can take hold of the divine nature through the knowledge of Jesus Christ who gave His life to buy us." (Sermons and Talks, Volume Two, page 126, paragraphs 2-3.)
"'This is My commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you' This is a wonderful statement. In our lives we are to exemplify the love of Christ. Then, like Him, we shall labor most earnestly for the salvation of sinners. He desires that we shall abide in Him, that He may work through us in keeping before the world such a representation of the infinite love of God as He Himself gave. Through our lives the respondent may receive an assurance that it is possible to be partakers of the divine nature, and by taking hold of this divinity win the victory that all must win who shall enter in through the gates into the city. [...] He who was one with the Father laid aside His royal robe and kingly crown, and in coming to this world clothed His divinity with humanity. Had He come in all His glory, escorted by myriads of angels, no man could have endured the sight. But He took upon Himself humanity, that He might perfect in His own life a humanity that we can lay hold of and be united with divinity. The divine nature is to be imparted to every true seeker after Jesus Christ. Divinity must be united with humanity. Thus humanity may be partakers of the divine nature, that men may be able to escape the corruption that is in the world through lust." (Sermons and Talks, page 294, paragraphs 1-2.)
"He blessed the world by living out in human flesh the life of God, thus showing that He had the power to unite humanity to divinity." (Selected Messages, Book 1, page 264, paragraph 2.)
"Jesus saw in this ruler just the help He needed if the young man would become a colaborer with Him in the work of salvation. If he would place himself under Christ's guidance, he would be a power for good. In a marked degree the ruler could have represented Christ; for he possessed qualifications, which, if he were united with the Saviour, would enable him to become a divine force among men. Christ, seeing into his character, loved him. Love for Christ was awakening in the ruler's heart; for love begets love. Jesus longed to see him a co-worker with Him. He longed to make him like Himself, a mirror in which the likeness of God would be reflected. He longed to develop the excellence of his character, and sanctify it to the Master's use. If the ruler had then given himself to Christ, he would have grown in the atmosphere of His presence. If he had made this choice, how different would have been his future!" (The Desire of Ages, page 519, paragraph 3.)
"Christ had two natures, the nature of a man and the nature of God. In him divinity and humanity were combined.... He exhibited a perfect humanity, combined with deity; and by preserving each nature distinct, he has given to the world a representation of the character of God and the character of a perfect man. He shows us what God is, and what man may become--godlike in character." (The General Conference Bulletin, 10-01-1899, paragraph 20.)
"What possibilities are opened up to the youth who lay hold of the divine assurances of God's Word! Scarcely can the human mind comprehend what is the breadth and depth and height of the spiritual attainments that can be reached by becoming partakers of the divine nature. The human agent who daily yields obedience to God, who becomes a partaker of the divine nature, finds pleasure daily in keeping the commandments of God; for he is one with God. It is essential that he hold as vital a relation with God as does the Son to the Father. He understands the oneness that Christ prayed might exist between the Father and the Son (Letter 43, 1895)." (S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7, page 943, paragraph 5.)
"What possibilities are opened up to the youth who lay hold of the divine assurances of God's word! Scarcely can the human mind comprehend what is the breadth and depth and height of the spiritual attainments that can be reached by becoming partakers of the divine nature. The human agent who yields obedience to God, who becomes a partaker of the divine nature, finds pleasure in keeping the commandments of God; for he is one with God; he holds as vital a relation with God as does the Son to the Father. He understands the oneness that Christ prayed might exist between the Father and the Son." (The Youth's Instructor, 10-24-1895, "Christ the Youth's Safeguard," paragraph 4.)
"While Moses was shut in the mount with God, the plan of salvation, dating from the fall of Adam, was revealed to him in a most forcible manner. He then knew that the very angel who was conducting the travels of the children of Israel was to be revealed in the flesh. God's dear Son, who was one with the Father, was to make all men one with God who would believe on, and trust in Him. Moses saw the true significance of the sacrificial offerings. Christ taught the gospel plan to Moses, and the glory of the gospel, through Christ, illuminated the countenance of Moses so that the people could not look upon it." (Selected Messages, Book 1, page 231, paragraph 3.)
"Those who eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of God have a vital, saving union with Him. They are partakers of the divine nature. Christ dwells in the human tenement. True Christians are one with Christ as Christ is one with God. The quickening of the Holy Spirit brings life to the soul. When this is believed, understood, and known by experience, the character of God is revealed in the human agent. Christ abides in the heart." (The Signs of the Times, 10-03-1900, "The Bread of Life," paragraph 13.)
"Christ's true followers will represent Him in character. They will turn aside from worldly policy, and every day will train themselves for service in God's cause. In active service they find peace and hope, efficiency and power. They breathe the atmosphere of heaven, the only atmosphere in which the soul can truly live. By obedience they are made partakers of the divine nature. The doing of the living principles of God's law makes them one with Christ; and because He lives, they will live also. At the last day He will raise them as a part of himself. He declares, 'As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.' 'This is the will of Him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.' Christ became one with us in order that we might become one with Him in divinity." (Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 06-18-1901, paragraph 7.)
Jeremy |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1849
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 4:47 pm: | |
Actually, there are a few more quotes that I want to post:
quote:"The reader may move through the most inspiring scenes. He may hold converse with patriarchs and prophets; he may behold Christ, who was equal with God and the Commander in heaven, coming down to humanity, and working out the plan of redemption, breaking off from man the chains wherewith Satan had bound him, thus making it possible for him to regain his godlike manhood. This is a subject that may well call out our deepest thought and most earnest affections." (The Watchman, 12-18-1906, "The Importance of Searching the Scriptures," paragraph 5.)
"Men and women professing godliness and expecting translation to heaven without seeing death, I warn you to be less greedy of gain, less self-caring. Redeem your godlike manhood, your noble womanhood, by noble acts of disinterested benevolence. Heartily despise your former avaricious spirit and regain true nobility of soul. From what God has shown me, unless you zealously repent, Christ will spew you out of His mouth. Sabbathkeeping Adventists profess to be followers of Christ, but the works of many of them belie their profession. [...]" (Testimonies for the Church, Volume One, page 482, paragraph 1.)
"If, after one has done the best he can in his judgment, another thinks he can see where he could have improved the matter, he should kindly and patiently give the brother the benefit of his judgment, but should not censure him nor question his integrity of purpose any sooner than he himself would wish to be suspected or unjustly censured. If the brother who feels the cause of God at heart, sees that, in his earnest efforts to do, he has made a failure, he will feel deeply over the matter; for he will be inclined to distrust himself, and to lose confidence in his own judgment. Nothing will so weaken his courage and godlike manhood as to realize his mistakes in the work that God has appointed him to do,--a work which he loves better than his life. How unjust, then, for his brethren who discover his errors to keep pressing the thorn deeper and deeper into his heart, to make him feel more intensely, when with every thrust they are weakening his faith and courage, and his confidence in himself to work successfully in the upbuilding of the cause of God." (Gospel Workers, page 93, paragraph 1.)
Jeremy |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5999
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 5:25 pm: | |
Jeremy, these quotes are so interesting and revealing. Again, one of the things that most strikes me is the fact that so many of them were written late in her career. It is not true that she changed and adopted an "orthodox" theology of man, salvation, and Jesus.
The publication of The Desire of Ages in 1898 was said to be the turning point which marked the transition from Arianism to trinitarianism. Yet these quotes show that Ellen really lacked the understanding of who God is and who man is right into her later years.
Interesting.
Colleen |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1850
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 5:57 pm: | |
By the way, the phrase "godlike manhood" (sometimes "Godlike manhood") that EGW uses, is also used by a couple of Christian Science authors, one of whom is paraphrasing their prophetess Mary Baker Eddy.
This first quote is from christiansciencetoday.org. The quote is by Alfred Barlow and comes from the Christian Science Sentinel (which was founded by Eddy), from August 27, 1910 (which was during Eddy's lifetime--she died December 3 of that year):
quote:"Christian Scientists, as well as others, still have much to accomplish before they shall have acquired a perfect realization of the true nature of Deity, and attained to the full stature of Godlike manhood, but the statement of spiritual truth which Mrs. Eddy has given; namely, that "God is Love" (Ibid., p. 2) and Love is the only real substance, can never be improved upon."
--http://www.christiansciencetoday.org/001/christian_science/librarycontent.php?action=118
The second quote is from Arthur Corey's Christian Science Class Instruction, and he is paraphrasing Mary Baker Eddy:
quote:"The moment you relinquish the notion that consciousness is something that can be compressed and carried around in a box called the skull, you gain immeasurably in the Godlike manhood that spells redemption to your finite human sense of man. (S & H 397:28-30)."
--http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/arthur_corey_christian_science_class_instruction.htm
And here is what Eddy herself says in the above referenced page of her book Science and Health:
quote:"Give up the belief that mind is, even temporarily, compressed within the skull, and you will quickly become more manly or womanly. You will understand yourself and your Maker better than before." (Science and Health, page 397. http://www.mbeinstitute.org/SAH/SAH.doc)
Elsewhere in Science and Health, Eddy says:
quote:"Human philosophy has made God manlike. Christian Science makes man Godlike." (Page 269. http://www.mbeinstitute.org/SAH/SAH.doc)
I found these similarities between EGW and Christian Science/Mary Baker Eddy very interesting.
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on June 05, 2007) |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 855
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 7:06 am: | |
One thing I want to possibly suggest -- I don't know if we have time or space here -- is to sort out what EGW said from the Scripture she borrowed terminology from.
For example, the "partaking of the divine nature" terminology comes from 2nd Peter 1:4, and the some of the "as he is" statements are clearly taken from the writings of the apostle John.
In the pen of EGW things become confusing because she was confused -- she didn't know the Biblical truth (God is not the author of confusion!). However, these quotes may not be eye-opening to people unless the Biblical sources from which she took the terms are explained in the light of Christ, and compared to the distortion. Otherwise, when they read her quotes they will see no problem because she spoke using terms of Scripture.
Ironically, just as the context of Scripture further clarifies things in the light of the Gospel of Christ, in the same way reading further into the context of EGW further clarifies things -- the context further clarifies her confusion. Context: It does a Body good! |
Bmorgan
Registered user
Username: Bmorgan
Post Number: 146
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 7:44 am: | |
Ramone, your last post is a little confusing to me. I am not scholarly nor do I have credentials from any prestigious or religious institution. However, in light of what I understand from the simple and clear scripture and with authority from God's Word, I have to conclude Ellen G. White had a spirit of error which does not come from God but was guided by demons or demonic forces.
Scarry!? Yes! 1 John 4 could not be clearer.
People in Jesus day had no problem beleiving or recognized demonic influences easily. I guess in our sophisticated age and culture, it harder to recognize or accept. Because we are so closely tied or related to the SDA organization, we to minimize or deny Ellen White was led by demons or spurred doctrines of demons. God is NOT the author of confusion.
It does not matter from much I love Adventists or what wonderful experiences I may have had being among them, the root and foundation of Adventism is total falsehood.
If Mrs White is tame, why denounce Mary Eddy Baker or Joseph Smith or Russell Taze?
My opinion of course.
Erma |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 763
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 8:15 am: | |
Good questions, Ramone! I don't think that's being soft on EGW to ask what the Bible verses that she misinterpreted actually mean. Here they are, for discussion:
2 Peter 1:4 - For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
John 17:11 - "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
John 17:22 - "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
I'm really not sure what "partakers of the divine nature" means in 2 Peter.
In the John verses, I would assume it means believers are one with each other. But what does that "one" mean? It must not be the Triune type of "one" but rather one in purpose, or one like we're all one Body of Christ. But SDA's teach the oneness of God is because the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in purpose - so I doubt EGW meant anything blasphemous in her statement we could be one with God. |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 233
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 11:12 am: | |
I know there is a teaching called "theosis" in the Eastern Orthodox church which basically says that man is intended to continue in spiritual growth and that God's intent is for us to become more and more what God is, with one difference; God is what He is by nature, but we can become that by grace. We would partake of God's nature by grace, God being the source of it all.
Of course one difference between SDAism and Orthodoxy would be that in the Orthodox church we can point to people who have advanced very far along in the journey of partaking of the divine nature... you find they are the most humble, loving, serving people, and it is common that miracles happen involving these people which would make you think you were in the days of the Apostles. SDAism probably does not have what Orthodox would term "Saints".
My guess is that in these quotes EGW laid out an ideal which is never reached by SDA's. While her understanding of things was not complete, what is worse is that there is probably nobody SDA's can point to saying "see, what she said really is possible and does happen".
In other words she made promises which were not able to be fulfilled. That is one thing which makes people lose faith.
Jeremiah |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1851
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 12:35 pm: | |
Good points, Ramone, about examining the Bible verses that EGW twisted/changed, etc.
Raven, you wrote:
quote:In the John verses, I would assume it means believers are one with each other. But what does that "one" mean? It must not be the Triune type of "one" but rather one in purpose, or one like we're all one Body of Christ. But SDA's teach the oneness of God is because the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in purpose - so I doubt EGW meant anything blasphemous in her statement we could be one with God.
I think your assessment is good--except that that is what makes EGW's statements so blasphemous!
Her statements literally change Jesus' prayer. If you look at her statements again, she says that we are to be one with Christ (NOT with each other) as He is one with the Father/God! And since she teaches, as you pointed out, that the oneness of Christ and the Father is only a oneness of purpose, etc.--the only interpretation you can get out of her statements is that she is saying that we are as close to Christ as Christ is to the Father!! And that we are as much Christ as Christ is God.
This statement of hers, quoted above, is probably the most explicit:
"It is our privilege so fully to partake of the divine nature that we may be one with Christ as he is one with the Father." (Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 05-01-1900, "Christian Perfection [Concluded]," paragraph 8.)
Now, onto that "partakers of the divine nature" phrase.
The phrase is used once in all of Scripture: 2 Peter 1:4.
In contrast, in EGW's published writings the phrase (or some variation of it) is used in at least 1,320 paragraphs! That right there indicates that she is giving it more importance than Scripture does, and is probably twisting the meaning of it. That verse (2 Peter 1:4) is also a favorite verse of the Mormons and the Word-Faith teachers, who also use it to teach that we can become/are gods.
(I would also like to point out that in one of the above quoted statements, EGW just plain lies about what the verse says, and outright changes what it says. She said: "We read in 2 Peter 1 that you are to be divine partakers of Jesus Christ,..." Uh, sorry, that's not what it says!)
In his book Christianity in Crisis, Hank Hanegraaff says the following:
quote:Perverting Peter
Asking the uninitiated to turn to 2 Peter 1:4, the Faith teachers say that the apostle, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, here espouses their "little gods" doctrine.
As Copeland puts it, "Now Peter said by exceeding great and precious promises you become partakers of the divine nature. All right, are we gods? We are a class of gods!"22
The following verses (5-11), however, show that Peter is not talking about Christians becoming God or gods, but about undergoing a moral transformation of our nature from one that emulates the corruption of the world (verse 4) to one that reflects the character of God (verses 5-11). In no way can this text be twisted to mean that believers actually take on the essence or nature of God. While redeemed man may reflect the moral attributes of God, he in no way qualifies as an exact duplicate of God.
(Christianity in Crisis, pages 115-116.)
And the Jamieson, Fausset & Brown commentary says the following:
quote:the divine nature--not God's essence, but His holiness, including His "glory" and "virtue," 2Pe 1:3 ; the opposite to "corruption through lust." Sanctification is the imparting to us of God Himself by the Holy Spirit in the soul. We by faith partake also of the material nature of Jesus ( Eph 5:30 ). The "divine power" enables us to be partakers of "the divine nature."
--http://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/jfb/2Pe/2Pe001.html
EGW's teachings on this are very similar to Faith teacher Benny Hinn's teachings, as described in the folllowing quote by Kim Riddlebarger:
quote:According to Hinn, Jesus is not unique as to his divine nature as the eternal Son of God, who takes upon himself a true human nature. Jesus is merely the pattern for all believers who come after him, who can now partake of the same divine nature as Jesus did by virtue of the power of the Holy Spirit.
--http://web.archive.org/web/20060221055855/http://www.modernreformation.org/krhinn.htm
What EGW teaches is Gnosticism--she teaches that the man Jesus was not actually God (or even a god), but that he only "partook" of the divine nature just like we can do, too. (And this divine nature that He "partook" while on earth was not even "the Son's" but rather "the Holy Spirit's" since "the Son's" was deactivated at the incarnation, according to EGW/SDA. She totally separates Christ's divine and human natures.)
This denies that God actually became a man, which according to 1 John 4 and 2 John, is antichrist.
And, according to this teaching, we get to become as divine as Jesus.
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on June 06, 2007) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6003
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 3:24 pm: | |
Jeremy, thank you for your post above. I found it helpful. Raven and Ramone, I have also realized that Ellen used Bible terminology in a way that confused the issue rather than clarifying it, but seeing the quotes from Hannegraaf and the J, F, B commentary above helps clarify this issues for me.
Here's where I think the rubber meets the road, at least as I look at my own experience: I learned that as Jesus was, I also may be. I was taught that if Jesus obeyed the Father perfectly by the power of the Holy Spirit, that perfection was also available to me if I availed myself of the power of the Holy Spirit with as much faithfulness as Jesus did. In fact, I learned that the level of perfection Jesus had must be present in those who would be alive at the time of Christ's coming if they were to go to heaven. They must have become so obedient to the law that during the time of trouble, they would be able to withstand persecution without a hint of sin all on the basis of their own perfection, because the Mediator would be withdrawn from the earth, and we would be standing before our persecutors without the beneifit of the Holy Spirit or any other "covering" than our own perfected obedience.
Even Adventists who say we cannot become "perfect" still believe that theoretically, if we could live long enough, we could become the sort of perfectly loving and obedient person Jesus was.
These beliefs come directly from the beliefs and doctrines of the Adventist church which are authenticated by Ellen's "I was shown".
As Jeremy explains above, we were taught that Jesus became human and laid aside His divine "advantage". He kept the law by the power of the Holy Spirit, we were taught, not by His own intrinsic perfection. He was an example to us, our "role model". I was taught that whatever Jesus did, I also could do, if I were deidcated and obedient enough.
Because Ellen uses "Bible words" like "partaker of the divine nature", I never understood the difference between what she was saying and what the Bible was saying. I understood Peter's words in light of Ellen's instructions that I was to follow Jesus' example and learn to keep the law and be holy by the "power of the Holy Spirit".
I never learned that Jesus was by nature "holy". He was born spiritually alive. He did not have to be born again--the only human ever born who did not have to be born again. I did not learn this truth because I also believed, in common with all Adventism, that humans do not have spirits apart from their mere breath. Jesus, also, had no "spirit" apart from "breath". He was a man with no advantage over us. Therefore, he was a "body plus breath" just like I was. He had to depend upon the Holy Spirit just like I did. I did not understand that He was, as a man, still COMPLETELY God in power and perfection.
As an Adventist I was not taught that Jesus the man was by nature Perfect and Holy. I was taught He was "sinless", but that sinlessness but by virtue of his "obedience" and dependence upon the Holy Spirit. I was taught He COULD HAVE SINNED. I didn't, I was taught, not because He was God but because He was more obedient than I was. I was taught that He was able to override the tendecies to sin that He inherited from Mary. He was sinless, I was taught, because He never sinned, not because He was spiritually alive and conceived by the Holy Spirit.
I understood that I could never "become God", but I did believe that I could "become like Jesus". This "becoming" was not based on being born again and made alive and connected to God. It was based on will power and obedience and my decision to follow Jesus.
And here is where the heresy of it all begins to show up: I can NEVER become like Jesus. He is God--and He always was. He could not sin because He was God. Even though He was man and was fully tempted in every way, He was also God. There is a paradox here that we can't explain, but because He was God and God cannot sin, He could not have sinned. I can never "be like Jesus". I can only be alive in Him.
When Ellen talks about partaking of the divine nature and being one with Christ as He is one with the Father, that is really saying that the human Jesus became one with the Father, and we humans can become one with Jesus who has merged mystically with God.
This is not what the Bible is teaching. We are one with Him and with each other by the connection of our spirits with God Himself through the indwelling Holy Spirit. We will never by nature take on God's nature. We will only share His Spirit creating His will in us.
Ellen White really did teach gnosticism. She really did misuse Scripture and confuse all of us about what it means to be saved, to know Jesus, to be born again, and to be united with God.
Jesus is completely God. We will never "be like Him". Ellen taught a sort of "exalting" of humanity by our obedience that would result in our achieving the same character and prefection that Jesus has. The Bible teaches a "humbling" of humanity through giving up all our efforts at will-power and goodness and submitting all our identity, hopes, dreams, and plans to the Lord Jesus.
In this humbling of ourselves, Jesus gives us His life.
Colleen |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1853
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 4:12 pm: | |
I want to post a few more thoughts, going along with what Raven said about how John 17 is not teaching that the body of believers is one in the same way that Jesus and the Father are one.
In His prayer in John 17, Jesus draws several such parallels, but it is clear that what He is saying regarding us is not to be in the same way as it is for Him. Here are some examples:
quote:"They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." (John 17:16 NASB.)
Here we see that both Jesus and us are "not of the world"--but obviously not in the same way. Jesus is the eternal Creator of the world, we are not.
quote:"As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world." (John 17:18 NASB.)
Again, Jesus was sent into the world, and we have been sent into the world--but not in the same way. We did not go from heaven to earth to become incarnate.
quote:"For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth." (John 17:19 NASB.)
Again, Jesus sanctifies Himself, and we are sanctified--but Jesus says He is doing it for our sakes.
The Jamieson, Fausset & Brown commentary says the following:
quote:be sanctified--consecrated. The only difference between the application of the same term to Christ and the disciples is, as applied to Christ, that it means only to "consecrate"; whereas, in application to the disciples, it means to consecrate with the additional idea of previous sanctification, since nothing but what is holy can be presented as an offering. The whole self-sacrificing work of the disciples appears here as a mere result of the offering of Christ [OLSHAUSEN].
--http://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/jfb/Jhn/Jhn017.html
quote:"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;" (John 17:22 NASB.)
Of course, Jesus did not give His glory to them in the same way. And, coming back to the original point, believers are not one in the same way that Christ and the Father are one.
The Greek word translated "just as" (or "even as" in the KJV) is the same word that is used in verses 11, 14, 16, and 18. For more information on this Greek word, click here.
As Colleen mentioned, believers are "one" because our spirits are all connected to God's Spirit. In contrast, Jesus and the Father ARE one Spirit.
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on June 06, 2007) |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 857
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 9:36 pm: | |
Hi Erma,
I think there may have been a misunderstanding somewhere. Please re-read what I wrote -- I'm in complete agreement with you. I think Colleen, Jeremy and Raven picked up what what I was hoping could accompany the EGW quotes, namely, a Biblical clarification of Scriptural terms that she appropriated and misused.
Goodness, I sound 'legal' saying that last sentence. Eeek. Hey, I'm not scholarly and I don't have credentials either. I never finished LaSierra. 
All blessings in Jesus and coming up short in nothing in Him!
Ramone |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 765
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2007 - 8:27 am: | |
Thanks for the great explanations, Jeremy and Colleen! I think that is key, that we're one because our spirits are connected to God's Spirit. I also think there's something to what Jeremiah said, that partaking of the divine nature means continuing in spiritual growth. That of course, is what happens when the Holy Spirit indwells a believer. |
|
