| Author | Message | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 89 Registered: 5-2007 |
What about the Orthodox Jews who probably keep the Sabbath more scrupulously than the SDAs do or ever did. Do the SDAs think Sunday Laws will stop the Orthodox Jews from worshipping on the Sabbath(no way, they've already endured centuries of persecution and never gave it up) or that the Orthodox Jews would accept Christ as the Messiah.(some may but some may not, who knows?). So then IF this is correct then this would imply that Sabbathkeeping Jews who do not accept Christ would be saved because they kept the Sabbath even during the Sunday Laws because by keeping the Sabbath they didn't get what Adventists believe to be the "Mark of the Beast" So they're saying that you don't have to accept Christ to be saved, just keep the Sabbath during the "end times" Can't they see that by this absurd and unBiblical doctrine they are actually denying the necessity of accepting Christ for salvation? WHY don't they get it? | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1082 Registered: 4-2000  |
Good points, Reb! | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 29 Registered: 4-2007 |
Reb Wrote: "Can't they see that by this absurd and unBiblical doctrine they are actually denying the necessity of accepting Christ for salvation? WHY don't they get it?" Because they'll claim they are saved by faith in Jesus (sounds so mainstream) then add 'BUT' we must keep the Sabbath as a sign of our faith. If you don't keep the Sabbath it's because you don't have true faith. So by this convoluted theology you're not lost because you don't keep the Sabbath but because you have no faith. You are not saved by keeping the Sabbath.NO! NO! NO! You are saved by the faith that you demonstrate by keeping the Sabbath. My goodness-EVERYONE knows that you are saved by faith. Shame on you for thinking that an Adventist is trying to earn salvation by works. | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 552 Registered: 3-2001 |
...but, if you know about the Sabbath and don't keep it, you will be lost--even if you are still trusting in Jesus for salvation. Interestingly enough, it doesn't really matter how you keep it, just that you do (within reason of course). Nah, no works there. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 552 Registered: 6-2006  |
I would think the true Sabbath would have to coincide with the Sabbath that Isreal keeps. I mean, let's face it, that's who the Sabbath was given to - the Jews, not the gentiles. So if it's sundown in Isreal on Friday at 6:00pm, then Sabbath would have to start 9 hours earlier if you lived in California. Only 6 hours earlier on the East coast... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5924 Registered: 12-2003  |
Y'all are making me laugh! Jonvil, your post is wonderful--that is exactly the confusion I have tried to think through and talk through over and over with people...but, as you say, "My goodness-EVERYONE knows that you are saved by faith. Shame on you for thinking that an Adventist is trying to earn salvation by works." Perfectly said! Sigh. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 794 Registered: 9-2006  |
The Sabbath keeper keeps the Sabbath so that his faith shows on the Sabbath that he is a Sabbath keeper keeping the Sabbath on the Sabbath, he therefore is in faith because he keeps the Sabbath on the Sabbath instead of the day after the Sabbath or the day before the Sabbath which would not be the Sabbath on the Sabbath, therefore he must keep the Sabbath on the day of the Sabbath to prove he is in faith on the Sabbath else he is not in faith on the Sabbath. Me blabbeth. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3698 Registered: 3-2004  |
Hey, don't you all know that the sabbath is kept because we love God. This is how we demonstrate our love to Him. PUCKKKKKK Diana | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 57 Registered: 8-2005 |
The sabbath is one thing in the context of Israel where all society where organiced on order to have one day of rest. There was sort of a one religion society. So is not the situation today by many reasons. When the world expanded east and west consider this situation: One apostle is spreading the gospel eastwards - keeping on the tradition of sabbath. On the other hand another apostle is travelling westwards doing the same. After some time - a year or so - they meet somewhere on the other side of the globe. What happens? They will not have the same tradition - one (the easttraveller) will worshop on the day before the westtraveller. Both have followed their understanding of the sabbath commandment. In fact the american continent would have risked to have friday as sabbatday if not the dayline where placed in the pacific. (hope I got all this arguments going correctly - it´s easy to mix this facts up and flip ones mind upside-down). Anyway - who was right? Who was carrying the TRUTH about sabbathkeeping? Is the seal of the sabbath to be conducted according to our east- or westtravelling apostle? This global world makes the sabbath commandment a little confused. Maybe - a sabbathkeeper follows as much of manmade rules as he follows Gods rules... /Dinolf | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 796 Registered: 9-2006 |
Quote: Because they'll claim they are saved by faith in Jesus (sounds so mainstream) then add 'BUT' we must keep the Sabbath as a sign of our faith. If you don't keep the Sabbath it's because you don't have true faith. So by this convoluted theology you're not lost because you don't keep the Sabbath but because you have no faith. You are not saved by keeping the Sabbath.NO! NO! NO! You are saved by the faith that you demonstrate by keeping the Sabbath. My goodness-EVERYONE knows that you are saved by faith. Shame on you for thinking that an Adventist is trying to earn salvation by works. Jonvil has the argument about right and what the Adventist would say to anyone today don’t you all think? However convoluted, that is what the argument would be and it doesn’t sound convoluted to them, of course this is only skipping off the top of Adventism. Bottom line is, the Adventist says that Sabbath keeping is “THE SIGN AND DEMONSTRATION OF OUR FAITH.” That’s what Sabbath keeping is and consists of. This one argument brings up a question, disregarding all other Adventist beliefs, foods, IJ, baptism into the church, just strip all of that away for a second and pretend they don’t exist and not allow our thoughts to be colored by any of these things. What is the SIGN AND DEMONSTRATION OF OUR FAITH? Shouldn’t we have a sign and demonstration of our faith or should we look exactly like the rest of the world? If we do signify and demonstrate our faith what should it look like? What is the signification and demonstration of our faith? Interestingly in Exodus 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. Going further Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Exodus 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. So this was a serious thing bringing the death sentence, to do any work was to be put to death. There is no second chance in a death sentence, no chance to “Do it better next Saturday” “for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you”. The sign was the Sabbath and the demonstration was death for failure to honor it. It appears to me that God was serious about this sign, the sign was the Sabbath and strict obedience was the demonstration that a man had kept it. If a man came into the tabernacle having failed to keep last Sabbath his sentence was death or so I gather from the reading of this, it was not necessarily a sign of their faith but a sign of obedience. Conversely the sign was the Sabbath and the demonstration of keeping it was that you got to live another weak providing you didn’t die from other causes. But, say the Adventist, keeping the Sabbath is “THE SIGN AND DEMONSTRATION OF OUR FAITH” little wonder then that they consider the rest of Christian-dom apostate and will fall easy pray to the mark of the beast. From their perspective there is no sign and demonstration the we evangelicals are keeping the faith. So what is the SIGN AND DEMONSTRATION that we are in the faith, what is the demarcation from the rest of the world and by “world” I mean the lost and the undone, not having regard for Christ or ever having been born of the Spirit. What is our banner or signature that we march under? If not the Sabbath, then what? The Sabbath is the banner the Adventist hold forth as they march to victory, the flag they fly, the sign they carry and it becomes the jeweled crown they will cast at the feet of Jesus. Lord did not you give us a sigh? And here it is, intact, as well as the other wonderful works we have done in baptizing souls into the church and acquiring apostates to do our work on your Sabbath, we have acquired many apostates and demanded they take our place in hospitals and even nursing homes and government and civil jobs so that we could stand before you here today. Here’s your sign Lord. Now you think I’m kidding about this? I knew of a fellow who worked in an aluminum smelter plant, now the “Pot lines” had to be kept in a molten state and strictly attended 24 – 7 so we all worked rotating shifts, to shut these “pot lines down for even one day would disrupt the whole system and cost millions of dollars and days of lost work for hundreds of employee’s and their families who depended on their paychecks for necessities of life while these “pot lines” were brought back “on line” and to full production again, each mans job was critical to some other mans job. Yet this fellow, refusing to work on Sabbath, demanded someone take his place and ended up suing the aluminum company. He ended up quitting and starting, you guessed it! A nursing home and then an Alzheimer’s unit on top of that and he runs it today as I speak. Will he fling those faithful employee’s he demanded to take his place at Jesus feet as a sign of his faith? You tell me. Will we demand that someone serve us on Sunday or will we wrap a towel around and begin to serve others? So folks, I ask you, as I ask myself this question.What is your sign, your banner? “Oonward Christian so-ho- lders, marching! As! To! waarrr! River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 797 Registered: 9-2006 |
Colleen, after I got through posting my post above I got around to reading your article you wrote in the LAM family news titled “A light in the country?” which I received by mail yesterday and it brought tears to my eyes as I felt the gentle confirmation of the Holy Spirit. Thank you so much, for what you wrote was just on time and at the right hour for me to read it. Your article taken on multiple messages as it seems the Lord is moving on my heart this morning. You see, I look out my front window on 20 acres of beautiful grassy fields spotted with beautiful trees and it will soon be under development. My wife especially was so disappointed when the development was announced. She wanted to put our place up for sale and I immediately refused and said “No!” I told her I felt that we are too old to be moving, like you, I was raised in the country and it has been a life long dream to own a place in the country. I used to day dream up repurchasing the three hundred acre family farm that was sold for 52,000 dollars, I love it on a tractor, I have 2 of them, one I just finished refurbishing but it’s closing in on me and I have had to pray about it and give it and my future to the Lord and set myself to live in his presence. I will show “you know who” this article this morning with prayer that she gets as much out of it as I did. Thank you so much Colleen for obeying the Holy Spirit in your life and for your friendship and thank Richard for me. Will you do that? Please pray for us about this development and that we will both see the Lords will in our lives. We are getting long in the tooth and not so “wearable” as we used to be and I would ask you for special prayer today. I know the Lord has many blessing waiting to bless us with as also you and Richard and all the rest of LAM family and the disappointments of this life will turn to joy unspeakable and full of glory. In Christ with utmost respect to all. River | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 391 Registered: 6-2005 |
"What is your sign, your banner?" Nothing but the blood of Jesus. I'm covered by His robe of Righteousness. I point to the blood shed for me, and thank Him. Here is a description of the "perfect seven" that I depend on to cover me, and that I point to as my salvation qualifyer. (Credit to Seven Places, "Awakening") "Jesus Christ our Savior who is the propitiation, the satisfaction if you would, for our sins, and not just for our sins, but for the sins of the whole world. The blood of Jesus Christ flowed from seven places. The first place He bleed from, the blood that poured from His head that day. The blood from the thorns in His skull cleanse you from thoughts, the blood that was on His face He has covered the things that you may not want to face up to because of what you've seen or heard. Know this, the blood flowed for you. "Yeah, but Jon, you just don't know I've backed away from the Lord, I've turned my back on him." Well they took a flagellum and they beat His back and blood flowed from His back, it reduced to hamburger meat that day, His back was beaten so brutally. And if you've turned your back on Him and walked away from Him, know this, the blood, the blood that poured from His back, cleanses you sprinkles you. "Yeah but Jon, you just don't know what I've done with these hands." Those hands were pierced, those hands were pinned to the tree, spikes driven through those hands where He bled to cleanse you and cleanse me from the stuff that we've handled that we ought not to have handled, the stuff that we've done that we ought not to have done. Hey, understand, the blood flowed from His hand. "Yeah but it's stuff that's inside of me Jon, It's just things that I feel in my gut, I have bitterness towards them, and I'm angry with her." Jesus wants you to know that blood flowed from His side when they thrust th at spear into Him when He hung on the cross. "Feet that walked where I ought not to have walked." Blood flowed from His feet too, when the spike pinned Him through the feet, to the cross of calvary. And now I realize things that I can't face up to, thoughts that I've had that are not right, not good, not true, bitterness inside of me, stuff I've touched that I ought not to touch, places I've gone where I ought not to have walked. And I look and I realize the seven-fold flowing of the blood of Christ clean ses me in every area from all sin and I'm free, and I'm forgiven, by the blood. What can wash away my sin, nothing but the blood of Jesus. Seven times perfection, Seven places, that's what He went through, for me and for you." YES! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3703 Registered: 3-2004 |
River, You are on my prayer list to be prayed for. God is taking care of you. He is such an awesome God. Diana | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 115 Registered: 10-2006 |
River, thanks for asking. My sign is the Holy Spirit in my life, Who will not let me go because I ask Him not to. That is my sign, my proof of God's loyalty to me. My banner is the Cross of Christ and His fight in me to bring me home to Him. By fighting the fight of faith with the weapons described in Ephesians 6, I am free and celebrating the salvation already mine - the only test of loyalty is to not give up because I believe God and His Word, His work. steve | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 102 Registered: 5-2007 |
Amen, Steve. One question I would also like to ask Adventists are do they really think Muslims that are bent on persecuting Christians are going to ask what day a Christian worships on? NO!! A Muslim that is persecuting Christians is only going to ask if they believe in Christ Jesus and the Gospel! Adventists are so busy judging and damning other Christians, they forget who their real enemy is! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3708 Registered: 3-2004 |
And that enemy is Satan. He has been defeated at the cross. Thank you God. You are awesome. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5936 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, I am praying for you and your wife. I understand the disappointment so well. I wil be sure Richard reads your post as well when he returns from his weekly lunch with a former colleague at LLU. What is my sign of loyalty to God? I believe it's my desire to be a living sacrifice to Him--but it's based on Jesus' blood and the seal of the Holy Spirit who lives in me and has brought me to life in Jesus! A thought-provoking question, River... Colleen | ||
| 91steps Registered user Username: 91steps Post Number: 151 Registered: 8-2005  |
I now attend a WONDERFUL Messianic Jewish Congregation and get more each Sabbath there then I EVER DID at ANY SDA "church" I attended. I still chose to observe the seventh day Sabbath because from my Bible readings that is the day I believe we are to worship on. But I sure as heck won't criticize anyone for worshiping on Sunday, Mon, or any other day for that matter. Because of what I saw/experienced while working that the SDA World HQ as a security officer, I am still very bitter towards the SDA "church". My wife still attends the church we both were baptized in and she has attended the Messianic Temple once and really enjoyed it. My prayer is that she will eventually leave that false religion she belongs to now and attend somewhere else, a Sunday church or whatever. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3779 Registered: 3-2004 |
91steps, I am so glad you found a place to meet with other Christians who love Jesus. The oldest of my younger brothers attends a Messianic Jewish congregation in Helena, Montana. When I visit him, I attend with him. Diana | ||
| 91steps Registered user Username: 91steps Post Number: 156 Registered: 8-2005 |
Diana, they put on a GREAT spread of food for the Oneg, food after the service!! Never had chow like that at an SDA church!!! | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 141 Registered: 5-2007 |
I tried a Messianic congregation and my wife even went with me(she was ok with the idea because they don't eat pork) I liked it but she didn't. I now attend a Seventh Day Baptist Church and I really like it and get spiritually fed there but my wife will not try the SDB church because they don't keep the Levitical food laws. Oh well at least she is accepting my going there at this point. |
