| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2007 |
My view regarding the Triune Godhead is that there are in fact three beings and yet one. I do not presume to understand the unrevealed mysterys of The Godhead. Nor can I know as a finite creature the full depth of this topic. But in the tenor of the scripture as I read them. I am led to conclude that there are 3 distinctive personas of God. In analogy: 3 Super computers connected to form a collective single unit. Another analogy: When a man and woman are joined in marrage , the two become "one" flesh. On the one hand , I do also read references of God referring to Himself as One God, in the singular. However, Christ spoke in a manner that showed a communication to another when he spoke of His Father. He prayed for 40 days. To himself? I do not think so. He prayed in the Garden before the cross. To His Father, Thy will be done. He cried out to God on the cross. "My God , My God , why hast Thou forsaken me" He told the women who met him not to touch Him, "Do not touch ME as I have not yet ascended to MY Father." He said , I must go , so that THE Comforter shall come. What I am saying is that, In my mind. I percieve God as a three beings with one collective shared mind. Intertwined and one in everyway, yet three personas. I happily admitt I may not grasp this correctly , or that I am incomplete in my premise. I even consider that Christ spoke in terms that we could understand. Ultimately, God is ONE God. When I pray, I pray in Christ's name. I suppose in my mind , I am praying to Jesus himself., I pray to The Father. I ask for The Holy Spirit. Frankly, I have ever been able to conceptualize the separation in prayer as it is transmitted across the universe to the throne of God. I believe God accepts prayer in Christ's name and scripture says that The Holy Spirit interprets for us even in groanings. If that is so. Then my inability to accurately conceptulize The Godhead is not a barrier to my prayers. I do not see a conflict with salavation on this issue. Not sure what negative effect is being suggested by having one view or the other as long as we accept that God is One and Three at the same time even if we can not grasp it intellectually. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3676 Registered: 3-2004  |
This is something that is so way above me. I will not understand it on this earth. When I am in heaven it won't matter because I will be with the three of them in person. Oh, that thrills my soul. God, you are awesome. Diana | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1811 Registered: 10-2004  |
Jim, the problem with what you're saying is that that is not the doctrine of the Trinity that has been believed and taught by the Christian Church for the last 2,000 years. The most foundational doctrine of all of Scripture is that there is only one living God--not a "united group" of multiple living Beings. When the Bible refers to the fact that there is only one God, it even uses the word "He." Let's take a look at your analogy of husband and wife--let's use Adam and Eve as examples--becoming "one flesh" in marriage. If we were to say that that is what the Trinity is like, we would run into problems very quickly. First of all, could we call Adam and Eve a "he"? In other words, could we call any two humans (even if they were both male) a "he"? No, it would have to be "they"--or if two or more humans formed a group or club (or "trio" as EGW calls "the Godhead"), perhaps "it." Second, let's say that instead of the God of the Bible, we were to worship Adam and Eve. Would we be worshipping more than one god? Would we be polytheists? Of course! If we were to worship Adam and Eve, we would be worshipping 2 false gods--not one! So, how can we claim that "the Godhead" is only one God if it's like Adam and Eve? The problem with your other analogy of "3 Super computers connected to form a collective single unit" is that Christianity (and the Bible) does not teach that there are 3 gods who are connected to form a collective single unit. There is only one God, indivisible and without parts. The Trinity is a vitally important doctrine. We can't believe that Jesus is just one of three gods--rather than the only true God! To say that "the Godhead" consists of three united divine beings is no different than what the Mormons teach about "the Godhead." I would like to suggest some links for further study. First of all, the following link is to a Bible study that Chris did on this forum about a year ago on the Trinity: http://64.226.233.122/discus/messages/5371/4025.html?1143955017 (beginning on the first archived page) Also, here is a study by Robert Bowman: http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/robert_bowman/trinity.html I would also suggest reading the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds: http://www.carm.org/creeds/nicene.htm http://www.answers.com/topic/athanasian-creed-2 Also, the following links from Wikipedia may be helpful (although be aware that these pages can be corrupted by people editing them): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_simplicity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity#Mutually_indwelling (and also the Theopedia link: http://www.theopedia.com/Perichoresis) The initial summary definition on Wikipedia of the Trinity is also very good:
Another very important point is that God is incorporeal (meaning He does not by nature have a body). Adventism also denies this very important doctrine. God is an infinite Spirit without body or parts--and He is one Spirit, not three spirits. Jesus tells us that God is a spirit (John 4:24), and Jesus also clearly tells us that, "a spirit does not have flesh and bones." (Luke 24:39) Diana, you wrote: "This is something that is so way above me. I will not understand it on this earth. When I am in heaven it won't matter because I will be with the three of them in person." The problem with that is that we are not going to see three Gods walking around in heaven--there is only one God! (And also, as shown above, God is spirit.) When Philip told Jesus that he wanted to see the Father, Jesus replied: "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me?" (John 14:9-10a NASB.) "For in Him [Jesus] all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," (Colossians 2:9 NASB) Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 26, 2007) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3679 Registered: 3-2004 |
I did not say they were 3 separate persons/beings. I still do not understand all about the trinity. I can wait until I get to heaven. Diana | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 274 Registered: 11-2005 |
Diana, I admit to not fully understanding the Trinity either. Sometimes I think I have a grasp on it, and then other times, I have no idea. Jeremy, I guess I never thought of it before, but in Heaven there will only be "God" and that is the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit all in one Being? I always kind of figured that we would be able to see God the father, and Jesus separately. And in regards to Jim's statement about Jesus praying to the Father on the cross. How does that make sense if they are all literally just one Being? I guess I don't get it. Was He praying to Himself? Grace | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 479 Registered: 11-2004 |
Here is how I understand it... As people we are spirit - soul - and body. Yet we are not 3 different beings. The different parts of a person all interact. The Father Son and Holy Spirit all interact. They are not 3 separate beings, but 1. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 21 Registered: 4-2007 |
To preface my remark: I heard a senior pastor say that NO ONE ‘UNDERSTANDS’ THE TRINITY! I personally am a very ‘visual’ person so the concept of the three persons of God as being actually three distinct persons works for me VISUALLY. I’m fully aware that this may not be an accurate representation of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. This visualization helps tremendously when reading about Jesus baptism-Jesus standing in the water, The Father speaking from heaven and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove as well as Jesus praying to the Father or Jesus at the Fathers right hand or…I’m going to make a huge assumption-I don’t believe I’ll lose my salvation because I have an incorrect understanding of the physical reality of the Trinity. JonVil | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1813 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Grace, You wrote:
Well, we all figured that, having been brought up in Adventism! Hehe.  It would be impossible to see the Father and Jesus separately, since they are not separate (God is one Being who exists as three distinct, but not separate, persons). Also, the Father does not have a separate body, as EGW taught us. God became man--He doesn't have a body by nature, and He doesn't have two or three bodies! God is an invisible, infinite Spirit (1 Timothy 1:17) and Jesus "is the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 2:15).
It makes sense because God is one Being who exists as three distinct, but not separate, persons. Jesus is the Son of God--eternally begotten of the Father. (See Theopedia on "eternal generation"--and also the archive of that page here may be helpful.) So, Jesus prayed to His Father. Of course, it is also true that the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son (John 14:10) and that Jesus is "all the fullness of Deity" (Col. 2:9). Jeremy | ||
| Johnl Registered user Username: Johnl Post Number: 9 Registered: 2-2006  |
Please help me understand. If as asserted by some above, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are a single entity, how can that be if Christ retained His physical human form/body when He returned to heaven? If God is a single entity, how could Christ have returned to heaven and taken a seat at the right hand of the Father? Sounds like he took a seat beside Himself. I sure hope this isn't another EGW fable. John | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1816 Registered: 10-2004 |
John, The Biblical phrase "at the right hand" is not supposed to be taken literally (like we were taught in Adventism), but is simply a Jewish idiom signifying a position of authority. Since God is spirit (John 4:24), the Father does not have a separate body, or a literal "right hand." The following website on Biblical hermeneutics says the following:
Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1817 Registered: 10-2004 |
Lest there be any confusion, the answer to the first part of your post, John, is that yes Jesus definitely did retain His physical body when He ascended to heaven. EGW even denied that on at least one occasion, however! Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 781 Registered: 9-2006  |
Look at it this way, when you pray to Jesus you are praying to your creator, also your savior and Lord. Got to fall back on my favorite scripture when Moses ask God about it and the answer came "I am, that I am" he is the great "I am". River (Message edited by river on May 26, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5907 Registered: 12-2003  |
The question, of course, is: "Why does any of this matter?" This issue is not just, "How do we 'picture' God?" The issue actually is, "Who IS God?" First, I believe that when we are freed from time, much of the paradox of One God expressed in three persons will be clarified. 1 Cor 13:12: "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face, now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known." Second, ask yourself this: Have you ever pictured Jesus as the One who actually wiped out the earth during the flood? Have you pictured Jesus as the One who came with thunder, fire, smoke, and terror on Mt Sinai? Have you ever pictured the Father actually experiencing and suffering the separation of sin in Himself as Jesus hung on the cross, taking our place? Have you ever imagined the Holy Spirit as the One who sent consuming fire and destroyed the Baal altars on Mt Carmel as Elijah prayed? If not (as I had not until VERY recently), it's because we were taught God is actually a "trio", Three People who together comprise a composite we call God. Yet the God of the Bible is NOT three separate entities. OK--think about Isaiah 9:6. It's a prophecy of Jesus that we all know. God inspires Isaiah to describe the baby this way: "A child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." Have you ever thought about that? This is NOT a metaphor. Baby Jesus (and the Man Jesus) WAS, literally "Wonderful Counselor" [the name Jesus applied to the Holy Spirit], "Mighty God" [we were tuaght this, but few of us really understood it], "Eternal Father"--did you catch that? Jesus IS the Eternal Father! Finally, He is Prince of Peace. Jesus is identified by the names of what we were taught were three separate, distinct Beings. But the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are NOT three distinct beings. They are ONE. Jesus, on earth, was also fully human--and as a human He prayed to His Father as we pray. [By the way, we have learned to live with the paradox of Jesus being 100% human and 100% God. Understanding that God is really only ONE is no less of a paradox.] There are two big reasons why this issue is so important. 1) We were taught that Jesus could have failed in His mission. We were taught that Jesus was the "part" of God that udnerstood us. He is our mediator because He can accurately represent our feelings and needs to the Father. (We thought of Him almost as Catholics think of Mary.) We were taught He had no advantage we didn't have; he could have sinned, and if He had, the Godhead would have been severed. Yet although Jesus was fully human and suffered fully, He was also fully God (remember? He never stopped being the "Counselor" and the "Eternal Father" and the "Prince of Peace"), and God CANNOT sin or lie, and there is NO darkness in Him. Because of this mysterious incarnation, Jesus could NOT have failed. This fact is why His sacrifice and His promises are superior to any other human's, including Adam. This fact is how we know that our eternal redemption is 100% secure. This FACT is why Jesus qualified to be our Savior. The reason why we ALL struggled as Adventists, never being sure we could be saved, is because we were vainly trying to emulate a FALLIBLE Jesus. How could we ever be secure if our Savior could fail? And how could we EVER have thought of Jesus as an "example" if we had understood that He WAS the Mighty God, Eternal Father, and Wonderful Counselor? God is not our example: God is our Redeemer and Substitute and Savior and Creator--God is God! Second, this fact of Adventism's non-orthodox Trinity is the heart of the subtle deception that makes Adventism the most dangerous and subtle false church out there today. Because Adventism has retained its founding fathers' Arian and non-Trinitarian legacy embedded in its doctrines, not only Adventists but the Christian community as well believes that Adventism is an authentic Christian church with a quirky love for Sabbath and vegetarianism. In reality, Adventism does not believe nor teach the truth about God. The Adventist Jesus is perceived as more self-effacing, more sensitive, more sympathetic and understanding than the Father. Yet Jesus said that He and the Father are One. This statement is NOT a figure of speech. It is absolute FACT. Jesus is not a "projection" of God; He is a different "person"--but He IS God. God is omnipresent, and God the Son took human flesh, and never stopped being God. This is a mystery, but the implications of our Adventist understanding of the Trinity are HUGE. This misunderstanding of Jesus is one of the foundational reasons our Adventist loved ones have such a hard time understanding what we mean when we talk about Jesus--and it's why we all had such a hard time processing out when Jesus called us to Himself. This heresy of a trithestic god instead of the true One God is the heart of what's wrong with Adventism. This is the fact that the Christian world would understand--if they knew that the Adventists' words actually meant something different from what Christians think they mean. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1818 Registered: 10-2004 |
Amen, Colleen! You wrote: "We thought of Him [Jesus] almost as Catholics think of Mary." Wow, that is very insightful and accurate! Just to go along with what you said in the first part of your post, here is a quote from one of the Theopedia articles that I linked to earlier:
And also, from the archived Theopedia article that I linked to:
Jeremy | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 229 Registered: 1-2004  |
There's an interesting concept known as "trinitarian anthropology" which takes the concept that God is a Trinity and that man was made in the image of God and then concludes that since God is love and the persons in the Trinity are in communion with each other, then for man to live fully as God intended man cannot be a lone individual, but must live in communion and love just as the Trinity are. You can read more about this concept here; http://www.antiochian-orthodox.co.uk/trinity_of_love.htm Here's a quote from the article; The approach to the Trinity has been different in the western and the eastern Churches. However, it is important that we do not see this difference necessarily as theological error. But rather as a difference in emphasis. In the western Church, through Augustine and the scholastics, the emphasis shifted from the Persons of the Trinity (hypostasis) to the Substance (ousia), which, as John Zizioulas points out in his famous book Being as Communion, has meant that in the Church’s textbooks on dogmatics, the Trinity gets placed after the chapter on the One God. By contrast the Greek Fathers saw it the other way round. They began with the hypostasis of the Father, rather than the unique ousia of God. By beginning with the Persons, the emphasis has been on the inter-personal relationships of the Trinity as expressions of love. This also has important repercussions when we see the Divine Image in our humanity, and the trinitarian aspect of that image in human life. Jeremiah | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 783 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thank you Colleen for bringing out the importance of this, I have seen from the first I came to this thread that there are folks still clinging to the flotsam and jetsam of Adventism, flotsam and jetsam still beating against the rock’s of truth washed back and fourth continually slamming up against that shore only to be flung back out to be carried toward it once again. Some having found relief and land upon that shore never to be carried out again, resting peacefully in Gods wisdom and in his power and in his might. And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." We have a place called Cape Disappointment up here where the lighthouse rests atop a giant rock and the wild pacific winter storms carry logs weighing hundreds of pounds flinging them upon the shore to rest there when a wave with one mighty heave finally cast them ashore where they will remain. The mix of former-Adventist remind me so much of this visual representation. Some still beating against the shore, some resting firmly upon that rock Christ Jesus, immovably held by his mighty hand of truth. It reminds me of a small story, now I will have mercy on you all and make it short. The call came in to the captain of a large vessel late one foggy night and advised “Captain, be advised to turn your ship 40 degrees to your starboard.” The captain radioed back “Sir I advise you to turn your ship 40 degrees to Port for we are a mighty vessel and will not turn for anyone.” The call came immediately back to the proud captain of this large vessel “Sir, please turn your ship, we are a light house!” And I say to you friend “Turn your ship!” “There are not three vessels but one shore. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3683 Registered: 3-2004 |
A very good story, River. Diana | ||
| Toria Registered user Username: Toria Post Number: 140 Registered: 2-2006  |
Hey River; That story happened off Newfoundland, Canada. The ship was an American Navy flag ship with a whole fleet behind them. Final two comments in that exchange were the captain insisting the (lighthouse he thought was another ship) should turn out of his way or suffer the consequences. The answer came back "We are a lighthouse, your call". (smile) Toria (Message edited by toria on May 27, 2007) | ||
| Toria Registered user Username: Toria Post Number: 141 Registered: 2-2006 |
Sorry folks, did not mean to get off an important topic. Toria | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 586 Registered: 4-2006  |
Just a note to "Jesus IS the Eternal Father!", when this verse got my attention was from the song: I'M GLAD I KNOW WHO JESUS IS by Jim & Wendy In a little town called Bethlehem so many years ago, They told him there was no room in the inn; They had no way of knowing who they had turned away, The Lamb of God who would take away their sins. Chorus I'm glad I know who Jesus is, I'm glad I know who Jesus is. He's more than just a story, He is the King of Glory; I'm glad I know who Jesus is. So many people still today don't know who Jesus is, They've never felt his peace down in their soul; But I want my life to show them how his love can set them free, He's the only one who can cleanse and make men whole. Chorus He's the Alpha and Omega, The Beginning and the End; He's the Counselor, Deliverer to me, you. He's the Everlasting Father, He is the King of Glory; I'm glad I know who Jesus is. Chorus I'm glad I know who Jesus is. --- I was a bit dumbfound about Jesus being the Everlasting or Eternal Father, until I realized that it meant that Jesus is eternal and not that he is God the Father, who is also eternal. Same God but two distinct persons. Hallelujah, I 'm Glad I know who Jesus IS!!! Jesus you are wonderful! I Love you! |
