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Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1830
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 10:57 pm: |     |
Thanks River. I really appreciate your post.
I thought I should clarify, however, that it wasn't me that put together that Masonic/EGW document. It was written by a woman who recently left Adventism. Colleen forwarded it to me and I just forwarded it on to others.
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on May 30, 2007) |
Snowboardingmom
Registered user
Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 280
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 12:03 am: | |
I'm still having a really hard time grasping the whole Trinity idea. I've read through the above website links on the Trinity, but still can't seem to fully comprehend it. I still keep picturing three different beings. I understand why it's unbiblical for there to be a heirarchy of Gods (Father is highest, then Son, then Holy Spirit--which ends up being nothing more than a power entity). I get the error in that. But is it possible to visually picture the Trinity as three distinct, but equal beings? It seems like that is my current way of grasping it. I know it's all under "God", but I still see them as individuals with one purpose. Is that correct? Or is that still Adventisty?
Also, I'm a bit confused as to the difference between modalism and the one God in three persons. Is the difference that modalism they don't co-exist, they are just one or the other? Whereas the idea of the Trinity is that they are one God in three different forms that can co-exist? Or is that still not right? Is the idea of "forms" of God even the proper way of describing the Trinity?
Grace |
Nicole
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Username: Nicole
Post Number: 63
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 4:51 am: | |
i have always accepted that there was one God in three persons and that God became man and walked this earth (Jesus)and then sent the Holy Spirit to be with us at the ascension. i was taught it was a mystery of faith, one that is hard to understand in human terms. while it is definitely good to accept the trinity, not fully understanding it is certainly natural, in my opinion. it is like thinking about "when did God begin or when was He born", i always thought about that in my mind as a little child. but i realized it was a mystery of faith. i know it is much different for an adventist who has a much more "logical or human" belief on God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, one that is certainly wrong and damaging. but it is not always a clear concept to get (for those of you struggling with it). i hope that makes sense. just don't feel bad or alone in your journey of faith, God knows your heart and will speask to you and reveal Himself in a way that you will gradually understand what He wants you to know. |
Snowboardingmom
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Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 281
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 8:12 am: | |
So, I understand the "God in three persons", but what I don't understand is how that's really different from the Adventist stance. As an Adventist, I thought it was three persons all under the Godhead (that whole family analogy). And yes, I had unspoken issues with the hierarchy of Gods, but I don't think it had anything to do with my definition of the Trinity per se (although because of my understanding of the Trinity, it kind of "fit"). But I think it was more Ellen White that painted Jesus as a lesser being, and then Holy Spirit as even lesser. But does the definition of the Trinity (however you visualize it), really make that big of a deal if you understand them to be all equal? What if you see them as equal, but still three separate beings all under the Godhead? I don't understand how that's really different from the SDA definition. I guess I'm still confused as to what the big deal is. It almost seems as if it becomes an argument of semantics?
I hope I'm not coming across as being difficult. I'm really trying to understand why this is such an issue. I guess I just never thought of the SDA understanding of Trinity as completely wrong or THAT bad. I thought once I took the time to really study through Chris' notes, and really read through these posts, it would become clearer. But I still don't really understand the big deal of why the Adventist understanding of the Trinity is so bad IF you can see them as three equal beings.
Grace |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5950
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 8:57 am: | |
Thanks, Nicole—I like your "mystery of faith" description.
Grace, I don't actually think the way we "picture" God is the important issue—except in this one respect: we were taught as Adventists (and Ellen actually states) that God the Father and God the Son have bodies. She was vague about the Holy Spirit and never pictured Him (she described Him more as an "it") with a body. In fact, I was taught that in some way, our bodies reflected the image of God.
The problem is that the Bible describes God as "Spirit" (John 4:24-25). Some of the credal statements of the early church affirm that God is Spirit without parts or form. This actually is the Biblical statement about God.
When we "picture" Him as a physical Person (or in our case, as thre separate physical persons), we lose the idea of God being completely "other" than us His creations, and we lose the sense of His omnipresence and omniscience. We lose the sense of God being One—of one substance.
When we begin to understand that God is Spirit, it's a tiny bit easier (at least for me!) to see that God did not separate Himself by Jesus taking a body. God as Spirit is not limited to or limited by physical form. He interacts with us and even within Himself as three Persons—the Bible is clear about that. But He is ONE—and His ONENESS is completely different from us in form and substance. He is GOD—all three Persons of Him—and He cannot be separated from Himself.
This mystery of God as Spirit also helps me understand that He is not "split" or separated into discreet parts when He indwells us by His Spirit. The amazing thing about being alive in the Spirit is that God Himself—the inscrutable, invisible, almighty God of all creation, visible and invisible, lives in us—and He is not diminished nor split from Himself in the process. We truly underestimate the power at work in us when we are in Him.
Modalism says that there is ONE God, but not three persons. In other words, God showed up as the Son, and He can show us as the Spirit--the "persons" are "projections" of God as needed.
Trietheism says that there are three separate Persons who form a "heavenly committee", as Helovesme2 said to me recently. Adventism teaches God by committee, in a sense, which shares a "family name". This idea, by the way is also the Mormon explanation of the Trinity.
For me, realizing that God is not physical, does not have a body, has helped me understand God is One better. The mystery of God in three persons is something we cannot fully understand, and frankly, I don't believe we're supposed to. We are to accept it by faith, and Nicole pointed out. But we need to accept the TRUTH by faith--which is that God is God, and the three person of the Trinity are all fully and 100% God. They are not each 1/3 of God.
Remember the Hebrew shema--The Lord, the Lord our God, the Lord is One? That is true. The incarnation has revealed more of the reality of our One God to us and has made the Son and the Holy Spirit more clear to us. And the Bible does show clearly that the Son has authority and a specific role in the slavation of creation that is unique, as does the Holy Spirit in indwelling us.
Yet, at the same time, the NT connects the three in ways I never realized before. The spiritual gifts are not just the work of the Spirit—they are from the whole Trinity (1 Cor 12:4-6). We are made one in Him by The Trinity (Ephesians 2:18). Etc.
It is, as Nicole said so well, a mystery of faith. But God is One--not three. I think, in a way, the Trinity for us as former Adventists is an issue a bit like the Sabbath. Because we were so thoroughly taught a separate God, a weak and possibly created Jesus, a non-personal Spirit, our "mental corrective" probably seems, at first, to be more extreme than it would be for a Christian who never learned that God is Three with a weak Jesus.
Just as an Adventist has to learn to completely trust Jesus alone by walking away from honoring the Sabbath, so we have to consciously think about God as One in a way "normal Christian" might not have to grapple with the concept.
What amazing reality: God is Sovereign! Jesus is God! I am realizing that as an Adventist I heard the words, "Jesus is fully God." But those words meant, to me, that Jesus, the separate part of God called the Son, was fully from the "god family", sort of like Roy and Nathanael are "fully Tinkers".
I am seeing now that Jesus being "fully God" means, as Colossians 1:19 explains, that "all the fullness" of God dwelt in Him--while he was a human, let alone before!! Being fully God means that he wasn't PART OF God—ALL God's fullness is in Jesus and the Father and the Spirit.
It's like my realization that Jesus being Lord of the Sabbath didn't meant that Sabbath was an eternal entity over which Jesus ruled, like the queen ruling over England. Rather, it means that Jesus is the "eternal one", and He created and administers the truth of the Sabbath. He Himself embodies the truth of His creation--the Sabbath isn't the eternal reality that Jesus "protects".
It's that same kind of inside-out realization I'm having regarding Jesus being Fully God. He's not one piece of God--like my piece of apple pie is fully pie--No--He has all the pie in Him! (Sorry, that's sort of a bad metaphor; hopefully you see what I mean...and even now I'm facing again that this is a MYSTERY of faith!)
Colleen |
Snowboardingmom
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Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 282
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 11:01 am: | |
Hmmm...that actually helps quite a bit, Colleen. Thanks.
And you're right, I do think of God as having a body. I remember learning about what He looked like, and how we were made in His image, etc... Yes, it's hard to not visually go back to those descriptions when I think of God. I definitely don't tend to think of Him as just a Spirit. The Holy Spirit, yes, but not God-God. I guess that's where the bad Adventist theology comes in, huh? And I guess, that's what makes the whole being born again, and having the Holy Spirit indwell us so remarkable, because the Holy Spirit is fully God. I get the significance now. The Trinity is still definitely a mystery to me, I'm sure it always will be, but I can see now the significance of understanding it correctly. The key with my confusion was thinking of God as having bodily form. I'll have to go back through the Bible texts regarding the Trinity, thinking of God as a Spirit entity rather than having bodies like us, and see if that makes more sense to me.
Often, I wonder what it would be like to just know this stuff without having to weed through pre-taught errors. I remember in the beginning of my processing out of Adventism, I'd come across HUGE ah-ha moments, and be so excited. I would share them with never-been Adventists thinking they would be just as blown away as I was by such profound insights! Instead, I usually got smiles back, with knowing nods saying, "Yes, that's the way I've always understood it."
Grace |
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1831
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 12:06 pm: | |
Hi Grace,
You wrote:
quote:"But is it possible to visually picture the Trinity as three distinct, but equal beings? It seems like that is my current way of grasping it. I know it's all under "God", but I still see them as individuals with one purpose. Is that correct? Or is that still Adventisty?"
That's exactly what the Adventists (claim to) believe--that there are "three beings" who are all equal. (Of course, as we know, they really do still teach a hierarchy).
You mentioned above that you "understand why it's unbiblical for there to be a heirarchy of Gods"
Ok, well if we take that hierarchy of Gods and make those Gods all equal, what would we get? We would get three equal Gods, right? Rather than one God. It would not be one God, anymore than it was when they weren't equal, right? They would just be three Gods all on an equal level.
If we were to worship "God" as a "family"--then how would that be one God? If we were to worship three members of a human family--we would have no trouble understanding that we would be worshipping three false gods, rather than one false god, right?
The thing that makes God "one" is NOT "one in purpose." Weren't those "hierarchy of Gods" that you mentioned before, all "one in purpose"? And yet, by your own wording, they were still three "Gods"--not one God!  So "one in purpose" can't make "three beings" be "one God"--even if they're all on an equal level.
The thing that makes God "one" is that He actually is ONE. He is one living Being--not three. He is not three separate physical bodies, as Colleen already explained above. He is a spirit--not only is He spirit, but He is ONE spirit, not three spirits. God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is ONE infinite, indivisible pure Spirit, without body (by nature) or parts or division. And within the one Being who is God, there are three personal distinctions, three distinct--but NOT separate--persons.
Bottom line--Adventism taught us falsely about what a "God" is. Adventism taught us that "God" (or "the Godhead") was just the title of a group. The title of a "trio" or a club--a divine membership club, which just happened to have three members (and some SDAs say, perhaps there are MORE than three members, and WE just don't know!).
In reality, "God" is NOT the title of a group of three divine beings. GOD is a living Being!
Also, as Colleen already touched on, we were taught that Jesus being "fully God" just meant that He was "fully divine" (they use the NOUN "God" as an ADJECTIVE!!! [Colleen, being an English teacher, should be upset about that one, hehe! ] In Adventism, "Jesus is God" = "Jesus is divine" rather than the true Christian meaning: "Jesus IS THE God"!). In reality, "Jesus is fully God" means that Jesus IS all the fullness of God!
I hope at least some of this post is helpful!
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on May 31, 2007) |
Jim02
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Username: Jim02
Post Number: 25
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 1:50 pm: | |
It is hard for me to get all this when it is not organized like a book.
Who does one pray to then?
I still fail to see what difference it makes , I may have missed it. 3-1 , 1-3 , 1-1-1 , 1
Still does not answer the many passages of Jesus praying to The Father. Makes no sense to me.
I admit many things I read in my bible come across much different than the SDA books.
Actually, I can read EGW, get depressed and discouraged. Next morning, read my NIV and feel a whole lot better. That is what actually caused me to lay down the EGW books. I got tired of being discouraged every time I read just one page too many. |
Jonvil
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Username: Jonvil
Post Number: 36
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 2:03 pm: | |
Matt 3:16-17
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
(NIV)
God in heaven announcing the presence God on earth while God appears as a dove. It can be a bit difficult to understand but who can comprehend the infinite God? |
Snowboardingmom
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Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 283
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 2:22 pm: | |
Breaking it down like that, Jeremy, was actually really helpful. And I totally understand what you mean by God being an adjective rather than a noun (in our previous understanding). That's so right! I never realized that before...
It's slowly starting to come together, and I think I'm actually starting to get it. I have the same question that Jim02 has: If Jesus and the Father are the same, then why did Jesus pray to the Father? And how do we address God--does it matter? I know these seem like really insignificant questions in the big scheme of things, but it helps me conceptualize more of what this all means.
Grace |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5954
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 5:40 pm: | |
This is where the mystery asserts itself, Grace. God, the One God, is expressed in three persons. And these three persons do relate to each other, even though God is One. We truly can't understand this fully inside time, three-dimensional beings that we are.
Jesus gave us a model in The Lord's Prayer. We can literally pray to our Father. Most prayers in the NT are addressed to the Father. There are a few, however, that also address Jesus. Stephen commended his soul to the Lord Jesus before he died. Also, Jesus is our eternal and faithful high priest. Hebrews urges us to approach the throne of grace that we may receive mercy and help from Him. There is every reason to be able to address Jesus as well. While there is no NT prayer directly addressing the Holy Spirit, there are texts that say He is our Counselor, that we "know him" (John 14:17), etc. He is God--there is nothing forbidding our addressing prayers to the Holy Spirit.
By the way, Grudem's Sytematic Theology and the condensed version Bible Doctrines has an excellent chapter on the Trinity. He discusses the "three in one" mystery eloquently and addresses common misconceptions. He says that "God's Being is not divided into three equal parts belonging to the three members of the Trinity", that "The personal distinctions in the Trinity are not something added onto God's real being", and "the persons of the Trinity are not just three different ways of looking at the one Being of God." He states that "There are three distinct persons, and the being of each person is equal to the whole being of God." He has helpful diagrams to illustrate each of these ideas.
I'll never forget the impact it had on me one day when Elizabeth Inrig told us, "I want to encourage you to address your Father when you pray. It is our privilege as His children to address Him as Father." She went on to say that she was trying to weed out addressing "Dear God" and addressing instead her "Father". She said that people who do not know Jesus do not have the privilege of calling God "Father". We need to "own" our privilege.
It is astonishing that the way has been opened for us to KNOW God, to be His children, to address Him as Father, to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit, to be washed by the blood of Jesus.
Praise God from Whom all blessings flow!
Colleen |
Godssonjp
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Username: Godssonjp
Post Number: 26
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 4:05 am: | |
Colleen wrote:
It's that same kind of inside-out realization I'm having regarding Jesus being Fully God. He's not one piece of God--like my piece of apple pie is fully pie--No--He has all the pie in Him! (Sorry, that's sort of a bad metaphor; hopefully you see what I mean...and even now I'm facing again that this is a MYSTERY of faith!)
Actually Colleen, the metaphor helped me with understanding the Trinity a little better. I understood that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit were equal but now I understand better that each is the "whole pie" not 1/3 of the pie. I think I had the understanding that each persona was 1/3 God that made them equal and a whole God together. After all, 1/3 of an apple pie is still apple pie. Without 1/3 of the "pie" would make it less than whole. But using your metaphor made it a little more clear for me. Thanks. It made sense to me. |
Marysroses
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Username: Marysroses
Post Number: 15
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 10:04 am: | |
Sometimes its much easier to fix in our minds what the Trinity is *not*. The reality is beyond our human ability to understand. If you want to do a study, you could make up some statements about what the Trinity is not, then list a bible verse to back it up.
The Trinity is not three individual gods who are a 'committee'. "The Lord is one" (Deuteronomy 6:4)
The Trinity is not one person with three roles.
(Matt 3:16=17)
The Holy Spirit is not an impersonal force if we can know Him.
(John 14:17)
I plucked these examples out of the previous posts, there are many more to find. I find that this approach is helpful, as there is no one bible text that explicitly explains it.
MarysRoses
(Message edited by MarysRoses on June 01, 2007) |
Marysroses
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Username: Marysroses
Post Number: 16
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 10:35 am: | |
I love to teach children, and this is how I teach them about the Trinity. It helps that many of our families are very proudly Irish Americans and are familiar with shamrocks.
I get some real shamrocks if the florist has some, or cut out some paper ones. Some of them I take apart into individual leaves and stems. To begin the lesson, I show the class the handful of greenery and ask them what it is. Ideas are usually Grass! Leaves, plants, etc. With fresh ones, I've even gotten herbs and parsley as ideas.
Then I show them a whole plant. Immediately they recognize the shamrock. Then I tell them the story about how St. Patrick used the shamrock to teach the Irish people about the Trinity when he went to Ireland as a missionary. Then we discuss that the shamrock wouldn't be a shamrock if it didn't have three parts, yet if its not together, its not a shamrock either. (this isn't a perfect analogy I know, but there really isn't a perfect one) God can't be divided or He isn't God, but God is three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, this is our One God.
I then give them a shortened version of a prayer written by St. Patrick. I taught this one to my own kids as a morning prayer:
I arise today
Through a mighty strength, the invocation of the Trinity,
Through the belief in the threeness,
Through confession of the oneness
Of the Creator of Creation.
Christ with me, Christ before me, Christ behind me,
Christ in me, Christ beneath me, Christ above me,
Christ on my right, Christ on my left,
Christ when I lie down, Christ when I sit down, Christ when I arise,
Christ in the heart of every man who thinks of me,
Christ in the mouth of everyone who speaks of me,
Christ in every eye that sees me,
Christ in every ear that hears me.
I arise today
Through a mighty strength, the invocation of the Trinity,
Through belief in the threeness,
Through confession of the oneness,
Of the Creator of Creation.
The prayer is more poetic than explicit, but the meaning is that Christ is always with us, and that if we are living out our calling as Christians, others will see Christ in us.
MarysRoses |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5960
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 11:15 am: | |
MarysRoses, thank you. Your insights are helpful, and I love the St Francis prayer. It makes me feel emotional to consider the Trinity now...it used to be a vagary that I considered fairly unimportant. In fact, I basically considered "Trinity" to be a non-relevant idea or word. I believed in the "Godhead"! (Not that Godhead is wrong--but when I was growing up, we never used the word Trinity...too Catholic [sorry, MarysRoses!]. )
Thank you for your insights.
Colleen |
Snowboardingmom
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Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 286
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 3:16 pm: | |
The Trinity makes so much more sense to me now. Thank you everyone for your explanations and insights. They were extremely helpful. The main cause of my confusion and hangup was picturing God as having a body. Once I established that He is a Spirit and saw John 4:24 as literal rather than metaphorical, it all started to come together. Amazing how one little thing or idea can completely taint how you view an entire concept.
I have a couple more questions though regarding God as being without body. What about Jesus' glorified body? In heaven, will we see Jesus in that form? What about the description in Revelation 1:14?
Grace |
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1835
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 3:40 pm: | |
Grace,
Yes, Jesus is still a man and always will be (He's never going to die again--Romans 6:8-10). So, yes, definitely we will see Him in His glorified body.
God became a Man. But humbling Himself to become a man and have a physical body is much different than having a body by nature. (Also, He is not limited by this body, but is still an omnipresent and infinite Spirit. In other words, He didn't lose anything of who He is or His attributes by becoming a man.)
Regarding Revelation 1:14, that passage says:
quote:"Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands;
13and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash.
14His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire.
15His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters.
16In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.
17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, 'Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Revelation 1:12-18 NASB.)
(There's that "alive forevermore" concept again! )
This is definitely Jesus in this passage, but there seems to be some figurative language in there, too, perhaps.
Jeremy |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5965
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 4:05 pm: | |
I think so too, Jeremy. It's more than ever overwhelming to think of the omniscient, omnipresent Son of God taking a body for eternity...His uniting us with Himself is profound.
We have bodies by nature, as Jeremy explained; Jesus has one by choice. His redemption of us far exceeds a mere pity for pathetic creatures.
Praise God...and I hardly even know how to articulate this particular praise!
Colleen |
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1838
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 4:23 pm: | |
You're right, Colleen.
According to Adventism, the Incarnation really doesn't mean much. All Jesus did was exchange his god-body for a human body (or crammed his god-body into the human body is what they really teach I guess). He didn't really humble Himself. He already had a body, after all!
Jeremy |
Marysroses
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Username: Marysroses
Post Number: 18
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 6:15 pm: | |
"(....but when I was growing up, we never used the word Trinity...too Catholic [sorry, MarysRoses!]. )"
LOL! No problem Colleen. The Trinity is special to me, and its something I feel Adventists really miss out on. God created us to love him, but how can we love someone we don't know?
MarysRoses |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5968
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 6:21 pm: | |
Exactly! Perfectly said.
Colleen |
River
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Username: River
Post Number: 810
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 6:21 pm: | |
Grace,
If this counts as anything, I picture the much the same as you said, I seem to have to or I will go crazy with it. Its like projecting your mind into space with it billions of stars with its vast distance in between, now hang yourself out there in all this vastness.
I tried this mental exercise once and it invites insanity.
Even though I realize that Jesus is my creator and I have never been Adventist, have been saved about 36 years this year.
I have to deal with it the way mind puny mind allows me to deal with it.
When I pray I pray to the Father in Jesus name, it seems to me to be truthful according to the way I understand the Bible.
I pray to the Father, to Jesus without thought or distinction, some times I say Dear Father and sometimes I say Dear Jesus.
If the Holy Spirit speaks to me I say “Yes Lord” or “Yes Father or yet again “Yes Jesus”. To me the most dangerous thing would be to reduce him.
Jesus was very plain when he said
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Jesus earnest of his Spirit which he has given verifies that what he said there in those scripture is true.
I have often wondered the correctness of the way I deal with what I cannot seem to fully understand yet the father has not rebuked me, if I am doing wrong I would think that he would have rebuked me in 36 years for he is dwelling within me just as he said. If he did I would adjust my thinking to his standards. The one thing I do is try to hold him in honor and give him glory.
The Holy Spirit seems to always point to Christ, he is the comforter but Lord.
I just wanted to express to you that you are not alone in how you handle this.
What you said and the humble way you said it caused my heart to go out to you, I love your humble Spirit and furthermore I think God does.
Thank you God for not leaving us comfort less.
God bless you to the full.
River |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 811
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 6:25 pm: | |
Further more you can yank my tooth any old time!
I would be proud to have you as my dentist. |
Snowboardingmom
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Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 290
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 02, 2007 - 1:20 pm: | |
Thanks, River |
Doug222
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Username: Doug222
Post Number: 577
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 5:02 am: | |
I have an old Adrian Rogers sermon that I was listening to this morning. He gave an iullustration that helped me to understand the concept of the Trinity. I'd like to share it to get confirmation from others, and to possibly help others understand this concept that can be hard to understand.
He compared the trinity to the concept of time and space. In time, we have hours, minutes, and seconds, as well as past, present, and future, Each of those are distinctly different, but inseparable from the concept of time itself. In factm if you removed one component, you would no longer have time. The same can be said of space. We have height, width, and depth. Height is not depth and depth is not width, but they are all part of space. Apply this concept to the computer that you are using at this moment. You cannot separate any of the dimensions of space and still have a computer.
This is why Jesus could not die. For Him to die would have meant that God ceased to exist. This illustration was so powerful to me. Hopefully it will be beficial to someone else as well.
Doug |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6057
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 2:52 pm: | |
Doug, that is so interesting and insightful. Thank you!
Colleen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1101
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 6:30 pm: | |
Doug,
Thanks for sharing some "Adrianisms" from the late Adrian Rogers. Adrian Rogers also said that at the point of regeneration, God changes our "wanter." I like that simple explanation. Certainly, God dramatically changed Paul's "wanter" on the road to Damascus.
Yes, a Christ supplemented is a Christ supplanted.
Dennis Fischer |
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