| Author |
Message |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1064
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 10:47 pm: |     |
Ramone,
The major legal systems in the world are based upon the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments are boldly displayed on the wall of the United States Supreme Court. They truly, without any doubt whatsoever, restrict evil in our society. I certainly would not want to live a place where murder and stealing is condoned by law or is simply ignored.
Yes, indeed, people are still terrorized by the Ten Commandments. God is at work! If you don't think people are terrorized by the Ten Commandments, ask a Christian counselor. Without law, there can be no transgression. One of the purposes of the Ten Commandments is to lead us to Christ. No human being has ever been able to perfectly keep the Commandments. We are in desperate need of a Savior and Substitute. "Christ redeemed us from the CURSE of the Law" (Gal.3:13 NASB)--not from our duty to obey God's moral laws. True faith, saving faith, always has the element of obedience. "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead" (James 2:17).
Jeremy,
Is Paul really telling us that the Jewish Sabbath is "holy and righteous and good" under the New Covenant? Is Paul really telling us that the food lists are "holy and righteous and good" under the New Covenant? Is Paul really telling us that the sacrificial laws pointing to Jesus are "holy and righteous and good" under the New Covenant? Is Paul really telling us that the Levitical tithing codes of the Old Covenant are "holy and righteous and good" under the New Covenant? Of course not! The context of Romans 7:12 does not allow such an interpretation. Only the moral laws of the Torah could be "holy and righteous and good" under the New Covenant.
Furthermore, Paul here explicitly uses the term "commandment" to make sure the reader understands that he is referring to the Ten Commandments. In verse 7, Paul even quotes one of the Ten Commandments. Context is always an important hermeneutical tool when reaching a theological decision. It still truly amazes me, even shocks me, to what lengths people will go to try to discredit or to nullify the moral directives contained in the Decalogue or even in the Pauline Epistles. I just had a liberal Adventist try to tell me the other day that the Apostle Paul was a false apostle. He was actually serious about it. He further stated that the reason I didn't agree with him was because I had a closed mind.
Dennis Fischer |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5825
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 11:21 pm: | |
There are wonderful, vital born-again Christ-followers in both camps: those who believe the written law has a continuing use for Christ-followers, and those who believe the written law has no active continuing use for Christ-followers except as a continuous backdrop illuminating Jesus who solely fulfilled it.
While I strongly believe that the written law was made obsolete for Christ-followers on the cross, I do not see persistent debating of this issue to be helpful. Paul specifically says in Titus 3:9 to "avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless."
We must rally around Jesus. "For the law came through Moses. Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ" (John 1:17).
No matter how we see the law's use today, if we rally around Jesus, submitting to Him and being taught by His Spirit, He will guide us into all truth.
Colleen |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1788
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 11:56 am: | |
Dennis wrote:
quote:Is Paul really telling us that the Jewish Sabbath is "holy and righteous and good" under the New Covenant? Is Paul really telling us that the food lists are "holy and righteous and good" under the New Covenant? Is Paul really telling us that the sacrificial laws pointing to Jesus are "holy and righteous and good" under the New Covenant? Is Paul really telling us that the Levitical tithing codes of the Old Covenant are "holy and righteous and good" under the New Covenant? Of course not! The context of Romans 7:12 does not allow such an interpretation. Only the moral laws of the Torah could be "holy and righteous and good" under the New Covenant.
Paul says nothing about "under the New Covenant." He simply says the Law is holy. It is. But we're not under it--"we have been released from the Law" (Romans 7:6). If the context of Romans 7 is talking about the "moral law" then verse 6 must also be talking about the "moral law." But in actuality, there is only one OT Law--and it contains all 613 commandments.
quote:Furthermore, Paul here explicitly uses the term "commandment" to make sure the reader understands that he is referring to the Ten Commandments. In verse 7, Paul even quotes one of the Ten Commandments.
The word "commandment" (or "commandments") does not ever refer to the "Ten Commandments" alone. In fact, the Bible never uses the phrase "Ten Commandments." The Hebrew word used is dabar, which simply means "words"--"the Ten Words." No Jew would have understood "commandments" to mean the Ten Words. When a Jews speaks of the commandments (mitzvot), he is speaking of the 613 commandments (mitzvot) in the Torah. Or if he is speaking of a "commandment" (singular; mitzvah), then he is speaking of one of the 613 commandments.
Jeremy |
Brian3
Registered user
Username: Brian3
Post Number: 103
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 1:07 pm: | |
Yes, the old covenant law was holy and just and good. It did exactly what it was supposed to do. it "increased" transgressions! It kept the Israelites, Israelites (seperated from Gentiles) until the Messiah could come through the house of David! And then, right on schedule, having fulfilled it's holy, just and good purpose, it expired when the new covenant was cut in Christ's blood. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5828
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 4:37 pm: | |
Exactly...and even today, the old covenant law stands as a backdrop showing who Jesus really was; only He filflled its shadows.
Colleen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1066
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 7:09 pm: | |
Jeremy,
The exegesis of Romans 7:12 reveals that the word "commandment" is a direct reference to the Tenth Commandment that is quoted earlier in verse 7. Thus, in context, the word "commandment" here is referring to a specific moral law in the Decalogue.
Dennis Fischer |
Jonvil
Registered user
Username: Jonvil
Post Number: 7
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 7:22 pm: | |
Agapetos wrote:
'Yes, Christ will bring us to repentence. For many it comes before they accept Him, but for many it also comes while or after they accept Him. It is not necessary for everyone to bow to the Law before they know Grace and Truth in Jesus Christ.'
Well said! It was years after I was baptized before I actually recognized my destitution. It was during my morning studies and prayer that I was actually feeling quite pleased with my 'goodness'-after all-I wasn't doing anything bad-I was an Elder, taught a SS class, I kept (sort of) the Sabbath, I paid tithe, I didn't rob banks and I didn't beat my wife-almost immediately the reality of my absolutely corrupt nature was brought to my attention-I am not able to describe the process but it is something I will never forget. I do know it was the work of the Holy Spirit and not the ‘Law’. This epiphany led me to focus on my need of Jesus and God’s Grace. I have learned something else: I am incapable of focusing on two things at the same time-If I am looking at myself I cannot focus on Jesus, if I’m looking at the LAW-same problem-I’m not focusing on Jesus. It’s Jesus only and absolute trust in the leading of the Holy Spirt.
Blessings |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1067
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 8:05 pm: | |
Just an added comment as to why the Apostle Paul selected "covetousness" (the Tenth Commandment) in Romans 7. Covetousness reveals the deepest intent and secret desire of the human heart. Therefore, Paul effectively uses it to summarize the commandments found in the Decalogue without having to list them all.
Dennis Fischer |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 801
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 5:36 am: | |
Hi Dennis,
quote:The major legal systems in the world are based upon the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments are boldly displayed on the wall of the United States Supreme Court. They truly, without any doubt whatsoever, restrict evil in our society. I certainly would not want to live a place where murder and stealing is condoned by law or is simply ignored.
Forgive me for saying this bluntly, but what you've stated is a very Judeo-Christian-centric view. Christianity/Judaism is not the only culture to prohibit murder. The prohibition of murder does not arise from the Ten Words covenant document! No, the prohibition on murder started when Cain killed his brother.
With the foreign examples, I think you may have missed my irony. The Japanese constitution is not based on the Ten Commandments, even prior to the Occupation and the war. Yet it restricted murder, stealing and other immoral things (but not all). There are many other governments that do not base their laws on the Ten. Even before the Ten were given, murder was wrong -- or else why did Moses leave Egypt after killing the Egyptian? Murder was wrong in ancient Egypt, too. Yet Egypt was godless.
And years and years later, God declared in Ezekiel that Israel had become worse than all the nations around her. Yet they did not have the Ten Commandments! Were "murder" and "stealing" legal in all of their societies? Were they "lawless"? Of course not. But they clearly did not have the Ten Commandments. Yet the nation that did have the Ten became worse in God's eyes than those other nations!
And today there are many Christian voices in America calling for the honoring of "the Ten Commandments" in American courthouses, as if national morality would be compromised without them! Have we learned nothing from the Old Testament?!
But I digress.
Remember how William Miller made his "proofs" about 1844? Every time he saw the word "seven" in the Old Testament, he took it to mean seven years or decades, and used it to lead to the date he had picked out.
When I talk with Adventists, I feel like every time they see a moral command in Scripture, they see "The Ten Commandments". They see the Ten everywhere! Even in the time of Abraham, 430 years before the Ten Words were given, and even in the time before that. Wherever there is morality, they credit and praise the Ten. I believe this is why many are blinded to the New Covenant, and do not believe that the New Wine can actually taste better than the Old: "No one having drunk old wine wants the new, for he says, 'the old is better.'"
Bro. Dennis, I know that you remember Ellen White's idea about how the Ten were the foundation of God's government, even in Eden and before Sinai, and her idea that they'll be the foundation even in heaven and eternity. But the Scripture says that the Ten were a covenant. And Law was given 430 years after Abraham. The principles pre-existed the Ten. This is why I can't look at every place in Scripture that a moral is mentioned and say, "It's the Ten Commandments!" This is why I can't look at non-Judeo-Christian nations and say, "They're founded on the Ten!" I can't see "The Ten Commandments" in places they clearly aren't.
Moral principles pre-dated the Ten (and can be found prior to Sinai), and after the Ten (the Old Covenant) became obsolete (by a new and better covenant), the principles continue on until sin is no more.
Hope this makes sense.
Blessings to you today in Jesus Christ,
Ramone |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 802
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 5:41 am: | |
Jeremy, good point about "commandment".
You know, if God considered violation of "ceremonial laws" (such as circumcision, Sabbath, etc.) punishible by death, then it seems clear that under the Old Covenant, all laws were "moral" to Him. |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1068
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 1:52 pm: | |
Ramone,
It is my understanding that governmental offices and schools are closed on the Lord's Day in China and Japan. It is not a typical school or working day for them. Is this due to their pagan culture? Furthermore, the earthly appearance of Jesus, who was fully God and fully man, split human history into two; namely, B.C. and A. D. for all nations in this world. No other religion has made such a global cultural-impact like Christianity has. Truly, this entire world has never been the same after Jesus lived here. Soli Deo Gloria!
Dennis Fischer |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1069
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 2:30 pm: | |
Ramone,
All laws were NOT considered moral under the Old Covenant. For example, Sabbath observance was only considered valid for the Hebrew people--not Gentile believers (unless they became circumcised--thereby entering God's covenant with Israel). Moral laws have universal application. They are not limited to time and space.
Likewise with the tithing codes, Gentile believers were not expected to practice tithing. It was considered illegal for Gentiles to submit their tithes from ground outside the sacred soil of Palestine. Even today, devout Jews are offended upon learning that Gentiles are observing their special day, the seal of the Old Covenant.
By the way, congratulations on the birth of your son. In a very practical way, parenthood helps us to better understand our relationship with God.
Dennis Fischer |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 804
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 7:24 am: | |
quote:It is my understanding that governmental offices and schools are closed on the Lord's Day in China and Japan. It is not a typical school or working day for them. Is this due to their pagan culture?
I'm not sure what you're getting at here, Dennis. This doesn't prove that international morality is due to the Ten Commandments. It's more of a business/international convenience. A few years ago public schools in Japan began to be required by law to have Saturdays off in addition to Sundays. Could we say, Dennis, that this is due to recognition that Saturday is the proper "Sabbath"? Of course not, Dennis.
Additionally, you missed my point about how "murder" was wrong in ancient Egypt more than 40 years prior to Sinai (not to mention that "murder" was wrong the first time it happened -- Cain killing Abel, long before there was any law prohibiting it).
"Adultery" was wrong in Abraham's time, as shown by God's judgment on the king who took Sarah to be his own. "Adultery" was not a new concept to him, either, because he were upset at Abraham for telling him she was his sister! He would not have done such a thing had Abraham told him the truth. And Sodom and Gomorrah were judged for their pride and sexual immorality, 430 years before the Decalogue was given.
quote: Furthermore, the earthly appearance of Jesus, who was fully God and fully man, split human history into two; namely, B.C. and A. D. for all nations in this world. No other religion has made such a global cultural-impact like Christianity has. Truly, this entire world has never been the same after Jesus lived here. Soli Deo Gloria!
I agree with you, brother! But how does this show that the Ten Commandments were the basis for pagan governments outside of Israel and the Christian Roman Empire, or governments that existed with moral rules prior to Christ's birth, and governments that existed with moral rules prior to the Decalogue itself?
The equation that seems to be in the foundation here is that "The Decalogue = the Universal Moral Law". It's simply not Scriptural. Universal moral laws existed prior to the Decalogue and were enforced by godless governments. And the Scriptures are clear that the Decalogue was given only to Israel as a covenant.
About which laws were considered "moral" under the Old Covenant, brother, all I know is that if you and I lived at that time and God said something deserved death, we had best have considered it "moral"!!
But I see that "universal" is worked into your definition of "moral". From that basis, then, how did God righteously judge Assyria, Ninevah, Sodom & Gomorrah (etc.)? After all, they did not have the Ten Commandments. The latter existed even prior to the Ten. The solution to this is very simple: The Covenant was made with moral principles (or laws) which existed prior to the Covenant. The continued existence of these universal laws does not depend on the Decalogue at all. We negate nothing by saying that the Decalogue was a covenant document, and by seeing the principles as being greater than the covenant document. We don't need to depend on the covenant document to teach the principles, either -- even unrighteous godless nations knew many of the principles! How much more is all the rest of Scripture sufficient to teach them and even more than is written in the covenant document!
I note again that you've said that moral laws are not limited to time and space -- "timeless", we might say. Then how will these laws function once sin is no more? I know we can't guess, but there are some things that don't even require guessing, brother. The Scripture states that the law was given to show sin, and to condemn. Once sin is gone, the law is gone. That is why Hebrews says that the old covenant is aging and will soon disappear: it disappears with sin.
*****
Thank you for your congratulations!!! You are so right that it helps us better understand our relationship with God! One of the most precious things is when I give him a bath in the tub (which fits into our sink). There is nothing like the look of trust in his eyes as he looks up at me while I hold him. I don't have words to describe it!
I shared with Colleen once how once late at night baby Timothy was upset because he was hungry. He thrashed around, and when he did find the breast to feed on, he kept his mouth too small. As Yoko told me what was going on, that verse popped into my head and made me laugh:
"I am the Lord your God who brought you up out of Egypt:
OPEN YOUR MOUTH WIDE AND I WILL FILL IT!"
Sometimes we are so upset about being hungry, thrashing around and crying that our unrest actually prevents Him from filling us with the very thing we need. |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1070
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 4:14 pm: | |
Ramone,
Thank you for your comments. My take on this is that the true God of heaven has instilled basic morality, as a common grace, to pagan cultures to limit evil in our world. I do not, of course, credit any wooden or stone pagan deity with such goodness and knowledge. All the decency and ethical elements in various non-Christian countries are solely attributable to the work of God alone.
Dennis Fischer |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5837
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 4:55 pm: | |
Yes, Dennis—all morality , decency, and ethics are from God alone. Romans 1 and 2 certainly support your statement!
Colleen |
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