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Message |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 3693
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 6:43 pm: |     |
Reb, God is leading you and giving you patience. I could not sit and listen to a sermon that did not glorify God. But I suspect God is helping you because of your wife. He does know what is best for each of us.
Diana |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 83
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 7:49 am: | |
God is faithful. He is leading me and taking care of me at this point.
My wife and I basically have an understanding at this point that I will not "disturb" her beliefs.
She really holds Ellen White in high esteem and believes Ellen White led millions of people to Christ.
She is pretty much accepting where I am at and that I am pretty much no longer an Adventist. I think she really realises that I am going to switch to the Seventh Day Baptist church and is going to allow me to do so. I told her I won't try to convert her but I am much happier not being an Adventist and she admits I have more peace and calm than I ever did before.
She did tell me though that she thinks the Baptists are wrong, she knows about the Baptists because she has an uncle in Indonesia who is a Baptist. But she's not forbidding me to attend Baptist church anyomore. |
Jonvil
Registered user
Username: Jonvil
Post Number: 27
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 8:54 am: | |
Reb,
I appreciate your position for we share the same domestic 'problem', but I'm a long way from changing churches. My spouse of 37 years is very Sabbath, very LAW and, although reduced some what in stature, EGW is still ‘mother’. It’s an emotional situation that has to be handled very delicately.
May God bless you as you progress out of Adventism
John |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 86
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 9:11 am: | |
Thanks, John. You are right this is a very delicate situation.
I will just continue to love my wife as Christ loves the church and show her an improved Christian walk from being in my new church situation. I will not "disturb" her beliefs.
Although she highly regards EGW she does acknowledge that EGW made errors and did some counterdicting of the Bible, but she still is convinced that the SDA church is the truest Church. I don't argue I just continue to do my thing and be loving.
At least she seems to be accepting that I am going to leave the SDA church. I just can't stand the SDA church anymore, it is so spiritually dead I feel like going there is a complete waste of my time. When I go to SDA church I don't get spiritually fed, hear very little about Jesus and the Gospel. It's all Old Testament, the Law, EGW, etc., ect, ad nauseum.
I love the SDA people and want peace with them but I just can't be an Adventist anymore.
My wife seems to like the calmer, more at peace me since I have been transitioning to the Seventh Day Baptist church so that may be part of why she's accepting it. That and the fact that at least Seventh Day Baptists still worship on the Sabbath(which I don't have a problem with).
She would never in a million years accept my switching to a "Sunday" church(even though there's nothing wrong with that) and I'm just not smart enough to win a debate about that with her so the Seventh Day Baptist Church has been my best way out of the SDA church. And at least it doesn't have EGW and the toxic, non-Biblical doctrines of the SDA church. |
Jonvil
Registered user
Username: Jonvil
Post Number: 28
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 1:52 pm: | |
Reb wrote:
'just can't stand the SDA church anymore, it is so spiritually dead I feel like going there is a complete waste of my time. When I go to SDA church I don't get spiritually fed, hear very little about Jesus and the Gospel. It's all Old Testament, the Law, EGW, etc., ect, ad nauseum.'
Ain’t that the truth. A horrible situation to be in. I sit in church, visualizing getting up in the middle of the sermon screaming ‘I can’t take it any more, haven’t any of you ever heard of the gospel?’ and then leaving, never to return. Then I remember that ‘Adventism’ goes home with me. I’ve even considered becoming so obnoxious (for me-a relatively easy task) that they’ll disfellowship me. Desperate times require desperate measures. Some day I’ll crack and let the chips fall where they may. If it weren’t for this forum I’d probably be under observation. A sense of humor goes a long way in dealing with the ridiculous.
John |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 92
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 2:06 pm: | |
So true, John.
I actually tried the so obnoxious that they would disfellowship me thing last year and I just wound up getting a warning from the church pastor including that I would probably lose my family if I were disfellowshipped.
Like you, Adventism "goes home with me" but lately it seems like at least my wife is beginning to tolerate the direction I am going in. I just show her more love and patience than ever before and continue to try to do so.
A quiet way I am rebelling is with my hair. I've had long hair most of my life and I was also getting no small amount of static about it at the SDA church. Now I've decided to let it keep growing longer than it has even been before, it's now at my mid back and getting closer to being down to my waist. So I will grow my hair down to my waist and wear extra jewelry(hmmm let's get creative a ring on each finger and some nice Native American style necklace and bracelets?). Wonder what they'll do about that? |
Dennis
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Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1083
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 2:57 pm: | |
Reb,
Someone once told me about an old California quip: "Grow a long beard and find yourself surrounded with 50 devout followers within a half hour." Don't laugh, I actually shave my head these days. Life in this world is not always fair (smile).
Dennis Fischer |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 94
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 3:02 pm: | |
That's a good one, Dennis. |
Jonvil
Registered user
Username: Jonvil
Post Number: 31
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 4:00 pm: | |
Reb wrote:
'A quiet way I am rebelling is with my hair. I've had long hair most of my life and I was also getting no small amount of static about it at the SDA church. Now I've decided to let it keep growing longer than it has even been before, it's now at my mid back and getting closer to being down to my waist. So I will grow my hair down to my waist and wear extra jewelry(hmmm let's get creative a ring on each finger and some nice Native American style necklace and bracelets?). Wonder what they'll do about that?'
A ponytail and a headband-with a beard. With beads and rings plus a t-shirt that says 'Jesus is all I need' or 'Christ Rocks' then insist on leading song service or give the childrens story or teach a SS class. Greet everyone at the door with a hug and a 'Jesus loves you dude'(this is fun) |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 95
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 4:07 pm: | |
Cool.
However, probably not the Sabbath School thing. I was removed as a Sababth School teacher(and nearly disfellowshipped) last year for speaking out against the IJ when they had that horrid Quarterly on 1844 and the IJ. And the next Quarter I taught creation based on my long/old earth creationist views.(yes I believe the Universe is 15 billion years old and was created in 6 of God's days which are aeons compared to ours not the 6 literal days the Adventists believe).
When I spoke my views on creation they reacted like I had just played a Marilyn Manson song or something. People got upset and one person even asked well then, HOW would we know how to keep the Sabbath if it's not six literal days. My response was God commanded it isn't that good enough?
Several of the elders went to the pastor and asked him to confront and disfellowship me right on the spot. I kind wish he would have.
(Message edited by Reb on May 29, 2007) |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 553
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 5:05 pm: | |
John, I'd like to add raising your hands during worship. Someone in here said they tried that during a service and the pastor asked if they had a question!
Psalm 63:4
I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands.
Psalm 119:48
I lift up my hands to your commands, which I love, and I meditate on your decrees.
Psalm 119:48
I lift up my hands to your commands, which I love, and I meditate on your decrees.
Sorry, that was off topic, wasn't it?
 Leigh Anne |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5926
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 6:38 pm: | |
Yeah, I have a question (I'm still laughing, Leigh Anne, over your reminding us of that anecdote)--how DID we explain all those psalms about joyful and physical worship?
Somehow, I think, I metaphor-ized even those. Amazing...the David who danced before the Lord and made his wife angry certainly was dancing in real time--not metaphorically.
I admit, I'm still trying to work up my courage to raise my hands without feeling awkward. It's better if I close my eyes.
Oh, and speaking of dancing, Richard and I attended a wedding Sunday afternoon/evening. A former SDA young woman married a never-been SDA who's been a Mission Aviation Fellowship missionary. They had dancing at the reception. Staid old former Adventists that we are, Richard and I actually worked up our courage to dance in the last slow dance. It was dark out, and we kept ourselves carefully at the edge of the action...but it was just fun! No, we don't know what we're supposed to "do", but we can move in time to the music, and I know how to hug him around the neck...it was worth the risk of embarrassment!
Colleen |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 554
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 7:01 pm: | |
I meant to add another and accidently repeated one -
Psalm 134:2
Lift up your hands in the sanctuary and praise the LORD.
Psalm 141:2
May my prayer be set before you like incense; may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice.
Colleen, don't feel bad about the hand raising. Our little Lutheran church has about 3 people who lift their hands. I sang on worship team Sunday and wanted to sooo badly during one of the songs, but my gutlessness won over!
Love your dancing story. You're allowed...you have a license!!
Leigh Anne |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1574
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 7:48 pm: | |
"...I just wound up getting a warning from the church pastor including that I would probably lose my family if I were disfellowshipped. ..."
I find the adventist definition of family quite interesting. Having just sat through a 4-week series on 'family' as the Bible defines it, (and roles) our people married to unbelieving spouses are told not to leave but to live by example so that their spouses may be won without a word. I think there's some scripture that says something close to that?? How can adventists justify leaving a spouse for anything except infidelity and still call themselves Biblical? Our pastor stood in front of our church and told people God hates divorce...it's not the unforgivable sin, but marriage was intended to be an example of Christ's love for the church, yet Christians pervert it at the same rate as the world. Even God's own word does not tell believers to leave unbelievers....why do adventists?? I'm so confused as how they view following scripture, keeping their commitments, and leaving someone who leaves adventism. I've never heard of someone divorcing a spouse for leaving the baptist church, or the AOG church or the methodist church... HOW can they, with a straight face, consider themselves 'just like' any other denomination? The more you look at it, it's exclusivity is SO obviously NOT like any denomination I've ever been a part of. Do they truly not see the conflicts or is 'the truth' worth ignoring clear scripture to the contrary? |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5929
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 8:18 pm: | |
Well, Melissa, you ask questions that are not easy to answer.
First, they really do NOT consider themselves to be just like any other denomination. They may tell "outsiders" that line, but internally, they do not believe it. They are the "True" church.
Second, Scripture is not "clear" to them. All Scripture must be understood through the SDA lens. They have made an art out of assigning meanings to Scripture which the evangelical community will not understand.
It's good to hear from you, Melissa!
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 3700
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 9:50 pm: | |
BRAVO, Colleen for dancing with your husband. It is fun. And you are right, all you do is move to the music. Now you and Richard should take dance lessons. Just a thought. I can imagine how you felt if this was the first time you danced.
Although there are a lot of people in my church who raise their hands while singing, I do not do it all the time. There has to be a real connection and feeling I have for me to raise my hands and I do it now, almost every week.
I started out just holding my hands out in front of me. Gradually they get higher and higher. It is worshipping God and I am getting comfortable with it.
He is so awesome.
Diana |
Snowboardingmom
Registered user
Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 275
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 10:32 pm: | |
Colleen, I love your dancing story! That's so great!
My husband and I first slow danced at a wedding as well. Many of my college friends married outside of the church, so their wedding receptions would have dancing. I never felt comfortable with the regular paced dancing (because I had/have no rhythm), but my friends frequently went "clubbing" (they were much more rebellious than I was) and were actually really good dancers. About 2 years ago, some of my friends started teaching me certain dance routines, and since they were my close friends and I could be "silly" around them and not feel too self-conscious, I began joining them on the dance floor and doing the routines that they taught me. It was sooooo much fun. Since then, if I'm at a wedding with this particular group of friends, I don't even hesitate to go out on the dance floor now. I never thought wedding receptions could be so much fun!!
So, Colleen and Richard, you may be slow-dancing now, but before you know it, you could be bustin-a-groove all over the dance floor! ;)
Grace |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5931
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 10:43 pm: | |
You give me courage, Grace! I've always been a frustrated dancer--Richard and I have been threatening to take dance lessons for quite a while. I think we're going to have to do it eventually...!
Colleen |
Bmorgan
Registered user
Username: Bmorgan
Post Number: 144
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 11:55 pm: | |
Wow, Colleen and Richard, dancing!? Well, there is hope for me (and Earle).
Like a very good Baptist, from the old school, when my husband and I became Adventists, we gave up dancing. My dad gave my sisters and I lessons teaching us waltz and other slow ballroom dancing when we were growing up. However, I lost the skills and the natural, innate rythmn the good Lord poured abundantly on folks of my clime-dominant black West Indian with African heritage.
I get enjoyment and my body can move comfortably at musical sounds coming from any kind of drums. I also love watching our children's bodies move with ease with or without music when they are in a dancing mood.
Thankfully, I am now free in mind and body to dance because HE (the Lord) set my feet to dancing.
Lord, make me obedient:~)
Erma |
Bmorgan
Registered user
Username: Bmorgan
Post Number: 145
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 12:08 am: | |
Correction!
My dad gave my sisters and ME lessons, teaching us how to waltz ......... |
Jonvil
Registered user
Username: Jonvil
Post Number: 32
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 4:35 am: | |
Leigh Anne
1Ti 2:8 Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.
1Ti 2:9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
I asked my pastor, after he quoted 1Tim 2:9 (to keep the women in line), why wouldn’t the preceding verse apply to the men-same author-same context. |
Stevendi
Registered user
Username: Stevendi
Post Number: 113
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 6:30 am: | |
Hmmm...maybe Ellen was really doin the "gator" when she was 'a floppin' round on that church floor.
steve |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 555
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 6:44 am: | |
John, that's interesting! You're right - that should have been added. Also, I had a friend who was apostolic and the women at that church went so far as never cutting their hair and always having to cover their heads during worship. (there's a verse somewhere about that). They usually wore doilies on top of their heads. I remember asking my husband why the SDA's didn't follow those rules as well, if they kept some of the others.
Steve - You're funny!! Just so long as it wasn't the worm...
Leigh Anne |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 3705
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 9:02 am: | |
Colleen, let us know when you take those dance lessons. As you all know, I like to dance and I have been told I am good at it. It is so much fun and good aerobic exercise.
Have fun!!!
Diana |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 5938
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 12:20 pm: | |
John, you're totally on target with your observation...It's funny, actually, to think of your asking your pastor about that text...Ha! Did he have a response?
Really good point.
Colleen |
Drpatti
Registered user
Username: Drpatti
Post Number: 49
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 1:20 pm: | |
The initial post brought up the question as to where SDAs got "soul sleep." The answer is "From Ellen," of course. But where did Ellen get it? From intensive study of the "church fathers"? From the writings of her Christian contemporaries?
From noted theologians?
Not quite.
She got it from ... her mother.
---"One day I was listening to a conversation between my mother and a sister, in reference to a discourse which they had recently heard, to the effect that the soul had not natural immortality. Some of the minister's proof texts were repeated. Among them I remember these impressed me very forcibly:
"‘The soul that sinneth it shall die.' A living dog is better than a dead lion, for the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything.' ‘Which in his times he shall show who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords; who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto.' ‘To them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory, and honor, and immortality, eternal life.' ‘Why,' said my mother, after quoting the foregoing passage, ‘should they seek for what they already have?'
"I listened to these new ideas with an intense and painful interest. When alone with my mother, I inquired if she really believed that the soul was not immortal? Her reply was she feared we had been in error on that subject as well as upon some others.
"‘But mother,' said I, ‘Do you really believe that the soul sleeps in the grave until the resurrection? Do you think that the Christian, when he dies, does not go immediately to heaven, nor the sinner to hell?'
"She answered: ‘The Bible gives us no proof that there is an eternally burning hell. If there is such a place, it should be mentioned in the Sacred Book.'
"‘Why mother!' cried I, in astonishment, ‘This is strange talk for you! If you believe this strange theory, do not let any one know of it, for I fear that sinners would gather security from this belief and never desire to seek the Lord.'
"‘If this is sound Bible truth,' she replied, ‘instead of preventing the salvation of sinners, it will be the means of winning them to Christ. If the love of God will not induce the rebel to yield, the terrors of an eternal hell will not drive him to repentance. Besides it does not seem a proper way to win souls to Jesus, by appealing to one of the lowest attributes of the mind, abject fear. The love of Jesus attracts, it will subdue the hardest heart.'
It was some months after this conversation before I heard anything farther concerning this doctrine; but during this time, my mind had been much exercised upon the subject. When I heard it preached I believed it to be the truth. From the time that light in regard to the sleep of the dead dawned upon my mind, the mystery that had enshrouded the resurrection vanished, and the great event itself assumed a new and sublime importance. My mind had often been disturbed by its efforts to reconcile the immediate reward or punishment of the dead, with the undoubted fact of a future resurrection and judgment. If the soul, at death, entered upon eternal happiness or misery, where was the need of a resurrection of the poor moldering body?---
And now the truly ironic part:
---"But this new and beautiful faith taught me the reason that inspired writers had dwelt so much upon the resurrection of the body, it was because the entire being was slumbering in the grave. I could now clearly perceive the fallacy of our former position on this question. **The confusion and uselessness of a final judgment, after the souls of the departed had already been judged once and appointed to their lot, was very apparent to me now.**---
Did she just say that the IJ was "confused and useless"?
---I saw that the hope of the bereaved was in looking forward to the glorious day when the Life-giver shall break the fetters of the tomb, and the righteous dead shall arise and leave their prison-house, to be clothed with glorious immortal life."---
Life Sketches of James White and Ellen G. White (1880), page 169,
This quotation nearly blew me away! It is because of Ellen's mother (Is the prophetic "gift" genetic?) that all of SDAism (alone, apart from the rest of mainstream Christendom) believes that "when you're dead, you're dead." And they call it good news!
(Message edited by drpatti on June 18, 2007) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6087
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 4:21 pm: | |
Dr Patti!!! How great to see you again!!
Thanks for this post...wow! Her mom originated the idea, huh? You know, I think I remember parts of the quotes you cite, but I never "put together" that she actually learned the idea of soul sleep from her mother.
I love your rhetorical question: "Is the prophetic 'gift' genetic?"
So good to hear from you!
Colleen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1109
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 5:45 pm: | |
Dr. Patti,
Thanks for sharing that quote about Ellen White and her mother. It was also Ellen's mother that convinced her and others that falling under the table at breakfast was not related to her accident or an illness, but rather to having a vision directly from God. Thus, they ignored her father's suggestion of consulting a physician. Likewise, I understand that Muhammad did not feel he was special until others insisted he was a prophet.
Dennis Fischer |
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