| Author | Message | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 384 Registered: 6-2005 |
Colleen, on the "locked" MEMBER section of this forum, you posted a reply on a thread by this same title. Your post was Post Number: 5875 I was so moved by that post, I think a least part of it needs to be copied here, so that anyone lurking or inquiring can share in the blessing. What a hard day I had yesterday. Spiritual attack has been non-stop for a couple of weeks, and last night a new crisis arose. I was really weak when I read you post, and I want you to know God used that post to bless and encourage me. Thank you for reminding me of the incredible good news of my rescue from sprirtual, emotional, and physical death, even when I cant "feel" it at the moment. Thank you for pointing out hope for complete restoration in the image of Jesus. I ask for prayers from the rest of you. Its humbling to ask, but I am in need, and I know how God answers the prayers of people here! Hope you can post it Colleen! Ramone, your response on that thread, number 817, was also worth repeating here! Lori 4excape@bellsouth.net | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5880 Registered: 12-2003  |
Lori, here's that post repeated. I'll let Ramone copy his so that his name and avatar show up with it! What most of us who hail from Adventism have a hard time grasping is the reality of spiritual life and death as a REAL thing. We do not have just "body + breath"; we have bodies and spirits which are born dead; we are by nature objects of wrath (Ephesian 2:1-3), and we are born into the domain of darkness (Col 1:13). This innate spiritual death is our sin nature. We are unable to respond to God nor to produce any righteous work--even though our works may look "good" and be altruistic and charitable. When we are dead in sin, everything about us is sinful. When we place our faith in Jesus and accept His sacrifice as a stubstitute for our deserved death, those dead spirits come to life by the resurrection power of Jesus (Ephesians 2:4-10) and we are transferred to "the kingdom of His beloved Son" (Colossians 1:13). We are sealed by the Holy Spirit Who is a deposit guaranteeing what is to come (Ephesians 1:13-14). This is the new birth which Jesus said was necessary in order to see the kingdom of God (John 3:5-6). When we are born again, sin has lost its power over us; it no longer reigns in us. Instead of having spirits dead to God and separated from him, instead of our being by nature objects of wrath living in the domain of darkness under the influence of the spirit at work in those who are disobeident (Eph 2:2), we have the life of Jesus literally living in us in the person of the Holy Spirit. This indwelling is what makes us God's children. This indwelling Holy Spirit is Who testifies with our spirits that we are God's children (Romans 8: 15-16). Before we are born again, we are God's creations whom He loves, but we become His children when we are made alive in Christ by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Now comes the conflict Paul describes in Romans 6 and 7. Let's go back to Ephesians 1:13-14 where Paul tells us the seal of the Holy Spirit guarantees what is to come. Well, what's still to come? We've already been made alive by the resurrection life of Jesus, thus being given eternal life. What's left? The body is what's left. Our bodies have still not been glorified. We are still in a mortal tent (2 Cor 5), and this mortal tent houses our brains, our genetic predispositions, our neural pathways that we have developed through years of living as natural humans with dead spirits, our desires and impulses, etc. Becoming born again does not remove temptation or the habitual responses to temptation that we have cultivated over the years. Jesus, who was born spiritually alive (the only man who did not need to be born again because He was conceived by the Holy Spirit), struggled in every point as we did. Temptation is inevitable as long as we are in our mortal tents and living on this earth with Satan at large, tempting and accusing us. The difference now is that with our spirits alive and connected directly to God, our temptations do not have fatal power over us. We now have a way of escape. God gave the law so that people dead in their sin, with unregenerate spirits, would have an external pointer to inform them of their great sinfulness. The law explained that sin would yield death. The Jews who received the law were convicted of their sin...and they were driven to more and more obssessive sin because, as Paul says, the law awoke every sort of sinful desire in him. It's like seeing a sign that says, "Do not spit on the grass." Now, you would not have thought about spitting on the grass, but the sign made you want to try it, just to be perverse, or just to se what would happen. This awareness of forbidden behavior was what the law was about. As Israel became aware of sins, they also became aware that they could not avoid sinning. First, the law made them compulsive about noticing their behaviors. Second, they began to realize that they could not avoid those behaviors. Dishonoring God, disrespecting authroity, murderous and adulterous impulses and behaviors, lying and sneaking and stealing if they could get away with it, coveting what they could not have...it never ended. They couldn't stop these things! Even if they could keep from killing outright or sleeping with someone not a spouse, they couldn't control their thoughts from desiring and coveting what they wanted but didn't have. Any way they turned, they struggled with sin. When a person is born again, however, there is, for the first time, HOPE and Power. Here's what happens: We are born In Adam (1 Cor 15:22; Romans 5:12-14). In Adam, we inherit our dead spirits. When we are born again by the Holy Spirit, we transfer from the domain of darkness to the kingdom of His beloved Son (Col 1:13). We are literally new creations. We are no longer counted as being in Adam; we have lost our natural inheritance of our sinful nature consisting of a dead spirit. We have a new Father—Romans 8:15-16—and we are now "In Christ" and made alive. In Adam our inheritance was intractable sin and death. In Christ our inheritance is eternal life and a new power and potential to live in victory. Our mortal tents still are subject to decay and death, to temptation and desire and habits. Now, however, when those temptations come, instead of struggling not to give in, to live "lawfully", we can "live by the Spirit." This means that we no longer have to plead to be good or exercise our will power over temptation. Yes, will power can result in our resistingtemptation, but it cannot result in our being free from the compulsive thoughts and obsessive rigors of avoidance and rigid self-discipline to avoid sin. Living by the Spirit means that we can actually turn to Jesus, through the prompting and power of the Holy Spirit who makes us aware of this option, and instead of fighting against our temptation, we can say, "Jesus, please take this moment and help me to stand in truth and reality. Please help me to honor you. I give you this powerful desire or temptation or this strangling obsession or depression. I want to honor you; please show me how to honor you at this moment. Please give me your power to say "Yes" to you and to let my "rights" to this temptation go. I give up my struggle with this sin; please give me Your power to honor you right now. I give me and this moment to You for Your glory. I surrender my engagement with this powerful desire to be destructive or indulgent. I ask You to glorify Yourself in my body and in my mind, and I thank You for being my Substitute and my all-in-all." Romans 6 and 7 clarify that as long as we live in these mortal tents, we will struggle between acting impulsively and yielding to Jesus. The difference when we are born again is that we are no longer struggling against sin. We no longer have dead spirits. Sin no longer has mastery over us. Now we have Jesus IN US. He makes us aware, at each moment of temptation, that we can either struggle or give in to our temptations, or we can yield to Him and give Him the temptation. We can step back from our habitual responses and allow Him to show us options, to give us the ability to choose to honor Him. Instead of struggling with sin, we now can yield to Jesus and let Him deal with the sin. Our bodies are not yet redeemed. It is a paradox that a living spirit can reside in a still-dead/condemned/unredeemed mortal body. This is the struggle Paul described. The "no condemnation" is that our spirits are alive; the bodies' glorification is now a guarantee! If we fall to temptations, our living spirits do not die. This is why Paul says, "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." But now, if we are tempted or fall into sin, God Himself will not give us peace. He disciplines us (Hebrews 12:1-12), and He brings us back to repentance. We now have a loving Father who owns us as His children. Because we have accepted the sacrifice of Jesus for our sin, He now treats us as children and doesn't let us get away with sin. He causes us to desire to honor Him, and He gives us His power to choose to yield to Him instead of fighting with sin. Paul says, "But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness" (Romans 8:10). The Holy Spirit replaces the law in our experience. 1 Timothy 1:9 says, "…realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious…" In other words, the righteous are NOT lawless...they have some sort of "law". But the Law--the written law--was not made for them. It was made for "the lawless". It is the Holy Spirit in us who is our Law when we are born again. Now we look to Jesus for our moral isntruction, and He has also given us His Word and the entire text of the NT showing us how Jesus has fulfilled the law, the prophets, and the Psalms. Our Sabbath rest comes from having living spirits reconnected to God—the eternal rest and connection to God that Adam and Eve had when God entered the seventh day of creation unbounded by evenings or mornings. We no longer foreshadow this eternal spiritual life and rest by ceasing our activities 1 in 7. We now have the Real Deal in the person of Jesus who lives in us by His Spirit. We are uncondemned; sin is no longer reigning in our mortal bodies! We have new identity, new power, new potential; we are sons of God. We now live in His presence daily--something impossible to do before Jesus' blood of the eternal covenant opened a new, living way to the Father. We are saved by faith, as were all the God-fearing people of the Old Testament. But we have something they didn't have: the fulfillment of Pentecost, the pouring out of God's Spirit to indwell permanently those who place their trust in the Lord Jesus. We're not coming full circle back to the law. We're in a completely new paradigm. No longer in Adam and subject to the curse and hopelessness of the law, we are in Christ. His personal righteousness is ours, and He Himself convicts us of sin and temptation and brings us to repentance when we fall. The law no longer convicts us of sin, because, as the 1 Timothy text said, we are not "lawless" but "righteous". The Living Law is in us, and He has transferred us to His kingdom out of the domain of darkness where the law condmened us. We are alive and free; sins no longer threaten our salvation because SIN is destroyed in our spirits. Now, our "job" is to interact with Jesus instead of interacting with the law and with temptation. Now we have the power to choose to give up our struggle and to honor Him! Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5881 Registered: 12-2003 |
I decided to copy Ramone's post because he's in a different time zone, and if I post it now, people can read it throughout the day. Sorry, Ramone--but here it is; it's a very insightful post. I think the easiest way I can sum things is like this: 1) The Law is no longer our basis for acceptance with God. We basically have a "safety net", so to speak. Jesus is our righteousness. We are accepted because of what He did. We are now free to live our lives without the worry that a sudden slip is going to be the thing that ends us. There is no condemnation in Christ. The Law is the "ministry of condemnation". It's purpose was to bring Israel to Christ. Look at Romans 7 like an expanded version of Galatians 3. As long as we look at Romans 8 through the lens of the Law, indeed we won't feel any relief at all! But once we understand that Christ has become our righteousness and that we don't live by Law, Romans 8 changes for us. 2) We live by faith, not by feeling. I know you know this already, but it's worth restating. Not only do we have the flesh and the accumulated habits of many years of sin & iniquity, but on top of it we tend to feel like our salvation or condemnation hinges on how we feel. The enemy knows this and tries to condemn us at every turn or slip we make. No. We are not saved by our feelings and we are not saved by our good works (or our lack of bad works), either. Live by faith, not by sight (of yourself). 3) Learn to see yourself as God sees you. Read what He says about you and take it personally! (Like in Colossians 1, etc.) Understand that as it says in 1st John 5, you are saved because you believe in Jesus Christ. And as Ephesians 2:6 says, you are seated with Christ in heavenly places right now. And in Colossians 3, that you have died, and you truly are living with Christ now! When He appears, then your life will appear with Him. Who you really-really-really are is in Him. All the voices and temptations and feelings of the flesh are not the real you. The real you is in Him and delights in Him. I know that last part can be hard to believe during temptation, but it is true. Paul didn't write it because of some theology he adopted or calculated. He wrote it because Jesus personally smacked into Him on the road to Damascus, and Paul saw that it was true. He was writing what really really is! Ask Him and in His time and in His way, He will show you the truth of what He has written about you. And that brings me to the greatest part. 4) Living by the Spirit is not a method! The Spirit is a living Person inside of you! The Spirit can't be methodized, because you can't methodize a Person! No one can strictly say that "Jim is this, and this, and this." No one would say that "The way of Jim is this, this and this, and not this, this and this." In the same way, the Spirit is a living Person. The Law was a written code which you tried to keep, which "with God's help" you tried to follow. Not so in the Spirit. In the Spirit, you have a living Person inside of you. Get to know Him! Talk to Him, let Him talk to you. Wait on Him, listen for Him. He will speak to you mainly through Scripture, but not only while you've got your head in a Bible. God is living inside you and will direct you in all your ways. This is the gift He's given you because of the death and resurrection of His Son. His life is living inside of you now. If you doubt it, give your doubt to Him and ask Him to help you see the truth that He's inside of you, and in His time and in His way, He'll let you know that He's made His home inside of you. "Living by the Spirit" is simply learning to let Him be Himself in you, and that you are who He says you are. Not only is the Christian walk a time when we get to know Him, but it is a time when we get to know ourselves. You get to know who you really are. He will show you who you really are in Him. And as you walk with Him and listen to Him, you'll find yourself agreeing with Him! The Law takes it for granted that our natures are against God's. That is why it commands us to not transgress it. But the Spirit shows us our spirit within us. The Spirit testifies that Christ has died and risen for us, and has given us new birth in Him. Paul says that "The Spirit testifies with our spirits that we are the children of God." (Romans 8:14, I think) You have a spirit in you that God has created. It is born again, born from above, and born of His Spirit. It is eternal. It is who you really are, the true you, the real you. It is that eternity He has set in your heart. It is you in the most naked form. The Law shows us we are sinful by nature, so it says "don't transgress!" But the Spirit shows us a nature inside of us that is born of God and hidden with Christ in God. The Spirit shows us a nature that is made by God through God and for God. Learn from the Spirit -- the Counselor who counsels us like a good therapist! We go to therapists when we have problems like hating ourselves or have been abused and do not know how to see ourselves healthily. In the same way, we are born under abuse and learn to hate ourselves. But the Spirit is given to show us who we really are, and counsels us personally, deeply and thoroughly just like a human therapist and even better. Hope this helps. Blessings in Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of Him who lives inside you! In Jesus, Ramone | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 774 Registered: 9-2006  |
My goodness, I got a lot out of that! This ought to be required reading for every born again Christian so that they can understand the paradox of living in this body while at the same time, living in Christ, I'm going to show it to my Pastor. River | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 818 Registered: 10-2002  |
Haha, no problem Colleen! (Behold my avatar, everyone!)  | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3655 Registered: 3-2004  |
Ramone, Thank you so much for what Colleen moved here. In my Celebrate Recovery class I learned that To let go and let God means, for me, to ask God to show me my motives, desires, wants, ambitions that are not his. Then ask Him to take them away and replace them with His. I have an eating disorder and I like sugar. I am learning, finally, when the compulsion to eat sugar hits, that all I need to do is say God, fill that spot in my with the Holy Spirit because I do not want to give in to that compulsion. Tonight God did that twice. At the cafe at my church, where I was for a meeting after work and on my way home from church, I did not stop by the store and buy what I was thinking about. I asked God to fill every cell of my body with the Holy Spirit, so that my wants will be His wants. I have to do this one day at a time. That is one way I see how the Holy Spirit works in me. I am very thankful God is so awesome. I got off track, but I wanted to share what God does for me, one day at a time. Diana | ||
| Toria Registered user Username: Toria Post Number: 133 Registered: 2-2006  |
Lori, you are in my prayers. Blessings Toria | ||
| Olga Registered user Username: Olga Post Number: 62 Registered: 11-2005 |
Thanks for this thread!!! Just what my heart needed to hear. God is indeed so REAL and He does care. Olga | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 271 Registered: 11-2005 |
Great thread! I just finished reading it and thought it was so good that I'm about ready to print it!! Thanks Colleen and Ramone! Grace | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 272 Registered: 11-2005 |
By the way, I'm praying for you Lori. Grace | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3665 Registered: 3-2004 |
God, be with Lori at this time. You know what she needs, so supply her needs as you promise. You are awesome. Diana | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 385 Registered: 6-2005 |
Thanks for you prayers all. I could tell a real difference today. I dont know why I wait so long to post a prayer request! Toria, I always pray for you! I pray for lots of people here, everyone really, and some more than others, but when I pray for you, I thank God for you, you are such an inspiration. Thanks for the repost Colleen and Ramone. Great stuff. How do you read that, and not praise God. He brought us out of darkness, into His marvelous light. (yes, Leigh, its a great song, as well as a verse!). Lori | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 268 Registered: 4-2005  |
Dear Colleen, I printed off your post above. Bonnie began reading it to me as we drove to church yesterday and we finished it in our morning Java and JEHOVAH time. As Bonnie, who continued to read it while I slurped my coffee, finished reading it, she said, "Right on, Colleen!" She stopped to highlight throught the reading of your post. We both just had to tell you, Excellent! Excellent! Excellent! Following the worship service in the small PCA Church we have been attending, pastor Randy Martin, brought out a significant point in his third sermon of his series on the gospel of John. Refering to verse 12 of chapter 1, emphasizing the words "He gave the right to BECOME children of God..." he said a typical Jew of Paul's day reading John's words would most likely be led to inquire: "If I 'become' a child of God, then what have I been? What am I or was I before I 'became' a son of God? After the service I began talking to one man who has attended longer than we have about the Law and the New Covenant theology compared to the Reformed position, which this pastor and others are firmly convinced of and others began to walk up. Soon the pastor came and I began telling of some of the posts on these forums and the background Adventists come out of when "the (windows) of (their) perception are cleansed" (Wm. Blake) to enable them to "see" the light/truth as it is in Jesus Christ. I am going to forward your excellent post above to help him see how "we" understand this part of the Christian's life. Thank you for the time and well organized thoughts you express. It is a keeper in my file! :c) Love, in Jesus Jess | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5913 Registered: 12-2003 |
Praise God, Jess! It's good to hear from you! Colleen |
