| Author | Message | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1071 Registered: 4-2000  |
Many aspects of the Adventist belief system are incredibly complicated and even embarrassing, but this one is actually outright sacrilegious in addition to being unbiblical. Let me explain. According to the SDA investigative judgment alibi, the first one thousand years of eternal bliss will highlight the redeemed of all ages intensely listening to dirty stories. Who is telling these dirty, gross stories in heaven of all places? Unashamedly, Adventist apologists insist that it is none other than Jesus Himself. It is only fair and right to say that devout Seventh-day Adventists shun listening to dirty stories in this sinful world. Amazingly, however, their eschatology dictates the idea that, once glorified, they will suddenly have an insatiable desire to the hear the juicy, impure accounts of those who are lost. Not long ago, my wife Sylvia curiously asked an Adventist, "How long do you think it will take for each saint in heaven to be satisfied while listening to Jesus' detailed, horrifying stories about their friends and loved ones not found in heaven?" The Adventist didn't seem to know. Those saints in heaven, who lived hundreds of years, would certainly require longer interviews than their twenty-first century counterparts. A professional friend, who daily works with statistics and mathematical formulas, has shared with me the improbability and impossibility of the investigative judgment ever being completed based upon current available data. For example, in analyzing various factors (i.e., the timeframe between 1844 to 2007 plus considering the current birth/death ratio), it is impossible for the investigative judgment process to ever be completed. From a purely mathematical perspective, it is most unlikely (even impossible) that Jesus' supposed "atrocious storytelling," about all the billions of unsaved persons, could be accomplished within only 1,000 years. Here is another possible scenario to the supposedly "dirty storytelling" in heaven: Sister A tells Brother B about her sister's wild escapades on earth. Brother B replies, "That's nothing! My brother did far worse things than that. He even . . . . . . Then Sister A replies, "Wow, that's quite interesting, I would never ever have imagined him doing anything like that. But it is certainly comforting to know the real reason why he isn't here." First of all, those who do not trust the judgment of our sovereign God will not be in heaven anyway. Those who are actively planning to put God on trial will also never enter the gates of the Holy City. The final and ultimate vindicaton of God was when Jesus died on the Cross in our behalf. How can created beings even remotely have the credibility and power to put God on trial to somehow vindicate him? Truly, God is not at our mercy. He doesn't need to be vindicated in the first place. We are not the captains of our eternal destiny. Only those who fully trust in Jesus will end up in heaven. Heaven would be hell for the ungodly. The Good Shepherd already knows who his sheep are, so what's the point of the investigative judgment anyway? After Calvary, no further vindication could possibly be needed. Nothing could top that! For the saved of all ages, the Cross is more than enough as a vindication of God's character and justice. To even remotely suggest that Jesus will be actively engaged in telling gross stories for 1,000 years is an affront to the holy atmosphere of heaven. Godly people do not listen to dirty stories in this life, and they most certainly would not be engaged in such evil in heaven of all places. In conclusion, please just sit back, relax, and join me in singing the beautiful hymn written by Isaac Watts , "At the Cross." http://www.digitalhymnal.org/dhymn.cfm?HymnNumber=163 At the Cross, at the Cross, where I first saw the light, and the burden of my heart rolled away; it was there by faith I received my sight, and now I am happy all the day. NOTE: The original hymn above further states, "Would He devote that sacred head for such a worm as I?" However, the current SDA Hymnal omitted the word worm and replaced it with "For someone such as I?" Apparently, our Seventh-day Adventist friends view themselves much higher than the hymnwriter stated. Truly, we have no goodness to offer Him. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 923 Registered: 8-2004  |
 Good point Dennis. I'm so glad that I don't have a thousand year 'sin-remembering fest' to look forward to! | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 169 Registered: 2-2003 |
Singing with you, Dennis! Thus might I hide my blushing face While His dear cross appears, Dissolve my heart in thankfulness, And melt my eyes to tears. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5838 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, very interesting analysis of the supposed IJ and its aftermath. It is such a relief to know that God is just and merciful, and his will is perfect. It's a HUGE relief to know that we are secure, and we don't hold any sort of obligation to understand or to pass judgment on God. Imagine, Us helping to vindicate the Righteous Judge?? Impossible! Besides, its just quite unbelievable that we were taught and believed that we would spend 1,000 years listening to gossip! God deals with us about ourselves--He doesn't tell us each other's stories! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3641 Registered: 3-2004  |
I cannot begin to imagine 1000 years of hearing all the bad/awful things that kept our loved ones from heaven. I have learned that there will be no more sin in heaven and telling all that stuff would be bringing sin into it. Colleen is right in saying that God deals with us about ourselves--He doesn't tell us each other's stories. I am trusting God to be fair and just and will continue to trust Him to be fair and just. After all He is God. He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 11 Registered: 4-2007 |
The created will ‘judge’ the Creator? It seems that, like the pagans, we impute to Him our human frailties thus making His motives open to question therefore God must prove Himself worthy of our worship. Did not the death of the Son of God establish forever the love, righteousness and justice of God the Father? JonVil | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 756 Registered: 7-2004  |
Too funny, Dennis! I never heard that "dirty stories" would be told by Jesus. I thought it was just taught the righteous will have access to the books where the angels recorded every deed. For the unsaved, all the record of their sins can be read, while for the saved it would just say "Forgiven." Of course that's not much better of a scenario. We can't read filth now, why would we read filth in heaven? | ||
| Robby Registered user Username: Robby Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2006 |
That is really something Dennis. Thanks for a great post! The closer I get to our faithful Father, and the more I reflect on my years of Adventism, the more senseless the whole SDA belief system becomes. And what a complex set of doctrines all tied to good works. (and they dare to point a finger at Catholicism) The sermon at church last week was called “Simple”. Worth a listen http://www.buckheadchurch.org/messages The message of Adventism should be titled complicated and confusing sprinkled with total nonsense! I am a stage of anger with the SDA church, and I know that others of you have expressed the same sentiments. I was a PK, and the church very nearly cost me a relationship with God. I ran away from everything “religious” for a long time. So I think this stage of anger is normal and will lead to something even better. Can’t wait to see what that will be. Robby | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5841 Registered: 12-2003 |
Robby, anger is normal. You are normal--and God is faithful! I just have to reiterate one of my favorite sentences of all time that I heard Elizabeth Inrig say very early in our time at Trinity Church: "God wastes nothing, and He redeems everything we submit to Him." That's true even for all those confusing, anxious years in Adventism and our anger on this side of it! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3644 Registered: 3-2004 |
Robby, I have not seen your posts before, so Welcome to FAF. As Colleen said, anger is normal when one discovers what the SDA church taught us is unbiblical. You will go through the grieving process before you finally come to acceptance. When you come to acceptance you will find God's peace and the liberty He gives us is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1072 Registered: 4-2000 |
Robby, A hearty FAF welcome! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Mommyk Registered user Username: Mommyk Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2007  |
I just wanted to post this link of the Gaither Vocal Band singing "AT THE CROSS". It is so beautiful! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BN95l8UuTQ The first tenor, David Phelps, is my favorite Christian singer. About 2 years ago I joined the message board on his website and for the first time met "real, regular Christians", as opposed to only knowing Adventist Christians my whole life. This was one important step of my way out of Adventism. Anyway, enjoy the song! 1 John 5:12 "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." It's as plain and simple as that! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5842 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Kristin! The song and their performance is beautiful. Yes, David Phelps is really good! Amazing, isn't it, how much that song means now?! Colleen | ||
| Blessed Registered user Username: Blessed Post Number: 34 Registered: 1-2007 |
Kristen, I went on the site and listened and it took me back to the service at the Baptist church where I went forward and committed my life to Jesus Christ. I will never forget for the first time understanding what Jesus did at the cross and that it wasn't about being an Adventist and adhering to all the rules - it was about Christ coming to earth and dying for me. My life has forever been changed since that moment. It is plain, simple and oh so freeing. It was truly at the cross that I first saw the light and the burden of my heart was rolled away. It was there that I did receive my sight and now I am truly happy all the day. Thanks for sharing that song. Blessed | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1073 Registered: 4-2000 |
Kristin, the link is most special in contemporary Christian music and in traditional hymns. Sylvia and I attended a Gaither Concert in Omaha, Nebraska a few years ago; however, we didn't get to see Bill Gaither because of his open heart surgery that week. Mark Lowry was the MC in Bill Gaither's absence. In his introductory remarks, Mark said in his usual folksy humor, "It's about time." The Omaha Civic Auditorium was packed with believers. We were greatly blessed. Thanks for the link that makes this great hymn even more meaningful. Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on May 17, 2007) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3646 Registered: 3-2004 |
This is the first time I have heard the group. I am being introduced to many different vocalists and groups that praise God. Thank you God and thank you Kristin for the link. It was fantastic. Diana | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 149 Registered: 4-2005 |
Speaking about the IJ and time reminded me our granddaughter just home from first year of college had some friends over for dinner. They mentioned purgatory and what did the Catholics believe. I was born a Catholic and attended a convent school for four years ( a very long time ago) and my son suggested I explain that belief to them, so I did and talked about lighting candles and praying that they would get out of purgatory and I told about asking a nun how long it took to get out of purgatory and that I thought some of those I was praying for had probably left, since we really didn't have any way of knowing. I never did get a satisfactory answer. But I was tempted to say it is very much like the SDA's belief in the IJ. I didn't, and I am wondering if that was an opportunity missed. In the course of my lifetime I have left two Churches that have claimed to be the one true church! Peggy | ||
| Mommyk Registered user Username: Mommyk Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2007 |
I'm so glad you all enjoyed the song and the group. The Gaither Vocal Band is one of my favorites! Dennis, I just went to a David Phelps/Mark Lowry concert in MI. It was the first time those two have shared a stage since leaving the GVB. It was amazing...a wonderful Mother's Day Present! I don't mean to turn this into a music thread but I wanted to share just three more songs, sung by the GVB. The second features David Phelps and the last one, "Let Freedom Ring" will leave you speechless! (No one can hit those notes like David Phelps!) The quality of the videos isn't the greatest, but the sound is still pretty good. It's the message that I want you all to hear. Thank you Jesus for going to the cross and for the freedom found only in You! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGuaJM_JmyI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kn8I9GK6Pc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZFPX-jgCCI (Message edited by MommyK on May 18, 2007) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1075 Registered: 4-2000 |
Kristin, What a great message in song, "The battle over over, it is finished, and Jesus is Lord." This message, in the universal language of music, well highlights the intent of this thread (e.g., no "Great Controversy" and no "Investigative Judgment"). Dennis Fischer | ||
| Mommyk Registered user Username: Mommyk Post Number: 11 Registered: 4-2007 |
AMEN, Dennis! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5848 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Kristin...the songs were wonderful. I loved the second one! Colleen | ||
| Toria Registered user Username: Toria Post Number: 125 Registered: 2-2006  |
Kristin, Thank you for the link. I enjoyed the songs so very much. And like Colleen, loved the second one. I watch and get a blessing from the Gaithers friday nights on tv. Toria | ||
| Doug222 Registered user Username: Doug222 Post Number: 542 Registered: 3-2001 |
Just a thought, but doesn't the whole idea of us judging the unrighteous in heaven suggest that we ourselves are in heaven by our own merits and that we are judging whether God was fair in not letting others in by their merits as well. Afterall, it doesn't matter what the unrighteous "did," since they are lost because of their inherent sinful nature (for which they refused to accept Christ's forgiveness). It really goes right back to perfectionism. Doug | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1573 Registered: 7-2003 |
Did Mark Lowry leave the group because of his MS, does anyone know? |
